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As many already know, the necron ghost ark has the ability target a warrior unit and "add d3 models to the unit"

Repair barge ability states "...ghost ark can expend energy to repair fallen necrons...add d3 models to the unit...This can not take the unit above its starting size." (Posted relevant portions only to avoid breaking rules)

Rather than state "add d3 warriors", they said d3 models. The repair barge ability is changed in the FAQ, and again they chose "models" instead of "warriors" or "warrior models"

It's highly debatable if that wording means you can add only warriors, or if you can add any model from the unit that's been destroyed such as royal court members or IC's. Hopefully GW addresses the specifics in a future faq, but for now, HWYPI?

RAW anyone including ICs. However, if I play anyone who adds a 200+ point character just to exploit that poor choice of wording, I'll dreadsock them into oblivion.

It really is a poor choice of words for that rule...

I was convinced we would get a FAQ that only warriors could be added, but when the repair barge ability was addressed in the FAQ for a different rules clarification, the wording for the relevant part of the rule was replaced, and they used "models" instead of "warriors" again.

Not that necrons really need any more help, but I do run ghost arks in my necron list and I'm considering adding adding a lord with 2+ save to the front of a huge warrior blob that could be added back to the unit every time it dies as long as a single warrior remains.

We play it that royal court models can be repaired, as they are squad members just like a warrior, essentially the sgt of the squad.

To complicate things further, in the independent character rules on page 39 of the brb, it states; "While an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

Yeah, there is no reason to assume that the wording used is anything other than deliberate.



Actually, there might be... (I don't have the Necron codex) Is there anything in the rule in question that limits the models added to models that have been destroyed? Or does it just say to add models to the unit without going above its starting size?

The beginning if the rule does say that the barge can expend energy to repair fallen models, and goes on to explain how in the same paragraph.

Yep, but given that it refers to 'adding' models to the unit, rather than 'returning' or 'replacing' them, if you go with the assumption that 'models' doesn't just mean 'warriors' then what is limiting it in any way?

Without anything specifying 'models that were originally in the unit' you could potentially add. say, D3 Monoliths to the unit...


So I'm going to go with 'warriors only'... as the alternative is just a little too silly for my taste.

If you were playing a Necron player and see they brought a few FW titans with there 1500pt Army, you might want to clarify this *before* you play

 insaniak wrote:
Yep, but given that it refers to 'adding' models to the unit, rather than 'returning' or 'replacing' them, if you go with the assumption that 'models' doesn't just mean 'warriors' then what is limiting it in any way?

Without anything specifying 'models that were originally in the unit' you could potentially add. say, D3 Monoliths to the unit...


So I'm going to go with 'warriors only'... as the alternative is just a little too silly for my taste.

I dunno, I see a clear distinction between adding models to the unit that are part of the unit and adding models to the unit that were never part of the unit.

We can all agree it is a terribly written rule, but it does have a clear description of what is actually happening (the unit is being repaired by the Ghost Ark). The whole Cryptek/Lord splitting off from the Royal Court to lead a unit is already a pretty nebulous rule, but assuming we can all agree to play it like the SW Wolf Guard FAQ, then those models once they are assigned to the unit are part of it for all purposes. Therefore I have no issues whatsoever about allowing a Ghost Ark to return Necron Lords/Crypteks that are part of that unit back to the unit. I also have no qualms about denying ICs the same luxury as they are only part of that unit while alive.

 BarBoBot wrote:
To complicate things further, in the independent character rules on page 39 of the brb, it states; "While an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

I don't really see where this comes in. When the IC is killed, he's removed and no longer would count as part of the unit.
Non-IC characters (council) I would count as being able to come back.
It seems to work out fine this way; you're look out is limited to 4+, so you don't tank all that many hits. Only having 1 wound means that cheap lord (50 points, 2+ armor) will drop in a few plasma hits.
The expensive lord (95 points 2+/3++) can tank out a bit longer.
In both cases, it seems that just starting with more warriors is better than running a tanking lord.
If you're not running a tanking lord (ie, you've got a warscythe and scarabs) then you don't want to be way up front anyway.

 yakface wrote:
. Therefore I have no issues whatsoever about allowing a Ghost Ark to return Necron Lords/Crypteks that are part of that unit back to the unit. I also have no qualms about denying ICs the same luxury as they are only part of that unit while alive.

This was exactly my take on it to begin with. But that 'add D3 models' part made me stop and wonder just what was stopping you from adding D3 Lords in that case. With nothing defining that individual model types are limited to their starting quantities, I can only think that the intention was to go by the original unit composition, which makes the whole problem go away.

 insaniak wrote:

This was exactly my take on it to begin with. But that 'add D3 models' part made me stop and wonder just what was stopping you from adding D3 Lords in that case. With nothing defining that individual model types are limited to their starting quantities, I can only think that the intention was to go by the original unit composition, which makes the whole problem go away.

Right. We all agree that the rule is written completely idiotically and cannot be played 'as written' (or as you point out it allows you to add ANY type of model to the unit so long as the unit does not exceed its starting size).

However, when we're in this situation, it really does come down to outside factors to help people make decisions on how they *think* it is supposed to be played.

When it comes to the unit exceeding its starting size, the real question is: is a Lord/Cryptek attached at the start of the game before or after this starting size is calculated?

I think if you took this particular issue out of the equation and just asked people: does an attached Lord/Cyptek count towards the unit's 'starting size' their natural answer would be yes. Because say you had a 12-man warrior squad with a joined Cryptek (making it 13 strong) at what point would it be under 25% of its starting strength (and therefore need double 1's to regroup)? Is its 'starting size' 12 or 13? I'd wager that he vast majority would say 13 in this case.

So to keep things consistent, that means a Warrior unit with a joined Lord/Cryptek can use a Ghost Ark to return back to a max of 13 models. If you DON'T allow the Lord/Cryptek to be repaired and returned to the unit, you're basically saying that the unit can still gain an 'extra' Warrior that it never actually had in the unit to start with, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

IMHO, what makes the most sense based on the fluff and keeping the rules consistent in all situations is to allow Lords/Crypteks that are part of a unit to be repaired by a Ghost Ark. This lets the unit return to its actual 'starting size' which is the same starting size that people tend to play in all cases (counting the attached Lord/Cryptek towards the unit's starting size).

As Yak said, RAW it's utterly ridiculous, but the poll asks HIWPI, which for me is warriors only. If I was playing another Necron player and thought they might throw a hissy over limiting it to that, I'd go as far as allowing RC members, but I'd draw the line at ICs.

EDIT: My opinion on the starting unit size: In Yak's example you have a unit that started with 12 warriors and 1 cryptek. You lose one warrior and one cryptek, both fail their RP rolls. Using the Repair ability of the Ark, you roll a 3 and get two models back. Disallowing crypteks because at the core of it, I think that was never intended originally, you can only place one warrior. The reason for this is I feel the model types matter for the original unit size. What models compose a unit is important in a hundred other areas from special rules to available wargear that can be purchased. It makes sense to me to maintain this for consistency. So the starting unit size for game terms is not 13 models, it's 12 warriors and a cryptek, thus disallowing you to repair a warrior in the cryptek's "slot".

If you really want to have some fun, start adding models from other armies. Soon you will have Terminators running around with Carnifexes led by a Farseer.

Those who believe it can add court members that were part of the squad how about thus situation:

5Warriors + Crytptek & Lord.

Cryptek and lord both die in a shooting phase warriors fail their morale check and fall back. Cryptek and Lord both pass Ever living. Now if memory serves me they are no longer attached to the unit as it fell back. Can the Ghost Ark add models to the unit? Would it add 2 warriors taking the unit back up to 7 models. Or would I get a free Lord and Cryptek. If so what equipment would they have?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Cryptek and lord both die in a shooting phase warriors fail their morale check and fall back. Cryptek and Lord both pass Ever living. Now if memory serves me they are no longer attached to the unit as it fell back. Can the Ghost Ark add models to the unit? Would it add 2 warriors taking the unit back up to 7 models. Or would I get a free Lord and Cryptek. If so what equipment would they have?

Not sure where you came up with the idea that if the unit falls back the Lord/Cryptek are suddenly no longer part of the unit. That doesn't happen.

Warriors get repaired.
Royal Court can get repaired too.
But no, I don't think it works on IC's.

I play it like this because RAW it is allowed and it's understandable in my opinion.
Royal Court are the Sergeants of the Necrons, they have the same role and just like Sgt's they are a part of the unit.

Yeah my mistake remembered RP doesn't work when you fell back so assumed that split of EL counters it doesn't.

So back to the example well just have the court members fail their EL rolls. So I get to add 2 models. Are they warriors, crypteks or Lords and how do we define what equipment they have?

Just add the original Cryptek or Lord back to the group, not that hard too figure out.

Why though. It does not restore models it adds them. If your adding a Lord or Cryptek where are you getting permission to upgrade them and if you can why not go all the way and give them literally everything?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why though. It does not restore models it adds them. If your adding a Lord or Cryptek where are you getting permission to upgrade them and if you can why not go all the way and give them literally everything?

This. Your adding models to a warrior unit, not "restoring" or "returning" them. When you use the repair look at the warrior entry in the codex. What models can you add to a warrior unit. Warriors.

If you are bringing back royal court members then I will start bringing back d3 necron lords with warscythes and 2+ saves everytime. Let's see how people like that.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why though. It does not restore models it adds them. If your adding a Lord or Cryptek where are you getting permission to upgrade them and if you can why not go all the way and give them literally everything?

Again, because as written you can add any model to the unit...an Imperator Titan, etc. There is no limit.

Obviously this is absurd, so it basically breaks down what logically is likely the rule supposed to be, with the 3 most logical answers listed in the poll.

There is no 'right' answer because the 'right' answer is an absurd one that makes no sense.

Given that the concept behind the rule is that the Ark is repairing the models from the unit, it makes no sense to generate Lord models with totally different equipment any more than it does to generate Titans to add to the unit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Warfrog wrote:

This. Your adding models to a warrior unit, not "restoring" or "returning" them. When you use the repair look at the warrior entry in the codex. What models can you add to a warrior unit. Warriors.

If you are bringing back royal court members then I will start bringing back d3 necron lords with warscythes and 2+ saves everytime. Let's see how people like that.

So your Necron Warrior unit had 11 Warriors, a Lord & a Cryptek (13 total).

The Cryptek and Lord get killed (along with some Warriors).

Based on your interpretation, how many Warriors can be added back to the unit? Enough to take them back to 11 or 13? And why?


If your answer is 11, then do you advocate playing the unit like that in all cases (where the Lord & Cryptek do not count towards the unit's starting total for things like morale, etc)?

I would logically say you can add up to 11. But 40k doesn't work on logic. My argument for 11 is during list creation the royal court is its own unit and split off before battle. So according to your list the Warriors initial size is 11. But the unit as deployed is 13 total. Since the only thing you can add is warriors I would allow you to add upto 13. Even though I only go to 11 with mine.

I would not allow you to add your RC models back.

I think just adding Warriors up to the starting number of warriors is the best bet. Because adding court members causes other problems. Like if they have 1 use items do they get that item back?

I voted to add court members back but reading this thread has convinced me that it causes more problems than it solves. Just stick with warriors.

Voted to get RC back but not ICs. While RAW could be interpreted to allow ICs, I view them differently from RCs since ICs can leave while RCs can't.

As for a tachyon arrow being one use only, I would play it as it doesn't come back, focusing on a repair instead of an add or replace. I would also not allow ICs because of the issue of multiple wounds more than any other reason. You killed my overlord, then I'm going to repair it with all 3 wounds....that's a pretty dick move even if the rules could be interpreted that way.

Warfrog wrote:
I would logically say you can add up to 11. But 40k doesn't work on logic. My argument for 11 is during list creation the royal court is its own unit and split off before battle. So according to your list the Warriors initial size is 11. But the unit as deployed is 13 total. Since the only thing you can add is warriors I would allow you to add upto 13. Even though I only go to 11 with mine.

I would not allow you to add your RC models back.

But that is inconsistent. If you played by that concept it would mean a Royal Court that split some members off to go join other units would be 'losing' models. So if your Royal Court was 5 models and you split 4 off to go join units, the Royal Court (of 1 model) now starts the game counting as being under 25% starting strength?

The only consistent way to play is that Royal Court members that join other units count as being part of that unit for all intents and purposes, exactly as the SW Wolf Guard FAQ indicates (in the most similar situation we have in the game that has been FAQ'd).

Anyone who reads the description of what the Ghost Ark is doing is not at a loss as to what is happening. The models are being repaired. So there is no major issues or great confusion. If a model is added back to the unit, then they are added back to the unit. If they previously used their Tachyon Arrow, then they've used it.

"add d3 models to the unit" roll a 3, add the Swarmlord, Azrael and Imhotek.

 yakface wrote:

Warfrog wrote:
I would logically say you can add up to 11. But 40k doesn't work on logic. My argument for 11 is during list creation the royal court is its own unit and split off before battle. So according to your list the Warriors initial size is 11. But the unit as deployed is 13 total. Since the only thing you can add is warriors I would allow you to add upto 13. Even though I only go to 11 with mine.

I would not allow you to add your RC models back.

But that is inconsistent. If you played by that concept it would mean a Royal Court that split some members off to go join other units would be 'losing' models. So if your Royal Court was 5 models and you split 4 off to go join units, the Royal Court (of 1 model) now starts the game counting as being under 25% starting strength?

The only consistent way to play is that Royal Court members that join other units count as being part of that unit for all intents and purposes, exactly as the SW Wolf Guard FAQ indicates (in the most similar situation we have in the game that has been FAQ'd).

Anyone who reads the description of what the Ghost Ark is doing is not at a loss as to what is happening. The models are being repaired. So there is no major issues or great confusion. If a model is added back to the unit, then they are added back to the unit. If they previously used their Tachyon Arrow, then they've used it.

Good point on the Royal Court starting strength. So i agree that in your example above necron warrior unit with 11 warriors and 2 court members (presumably from different courts) lost both court members and a necron warrior they would be allowed to add upto a full 3 warriors. However that still does not change the fact that your are (from a rules point not a fluff point) creating new warriors not restoring models that was previously there. I see no wording that would allow you to add Royal Court members back to the unit.

Yakface you are claiming using the starting squad numbers as different things is being inconsistent yet adding models with their starting gear and then claiming they can't use 1 use items that a different model used is likewise just as inconsistent.