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Ok so my friend has been saying that he thinks guardsmen are not worth their points cost. He says this because of the range of their guns and the overall stats of a lasgun. Do you think this is true? If you think that they are worth it will you tell me why and vice versa. Personally I think they are worth it but I was looking for other peoples opinions. Thanks

o.0

You buy them by the bucket-full. That's why they're so cheap, points-wise. The IG is not an army that works with small numbers of elite units, it works by have 200 guys stand there and shoot a few times each at that squad of ten elite guys.

In 200 (or more) dice, you're gonna roll enough successful hits to absolutely plaster those high-points, super-duper elite units.

They're referred to as a horde army for a reason.

They're chumps and they command a chumpy price. They're a lot scarier when they're behind the wheels of a Manticore or Vendetta though.

They become exponentially more dangerous when given orders and proper support. Of course in a vacuum one Guardsman is going to suck, he's just a dude with hockey armor and a flashlight, It's when he has 50 buddies that he's a problem.

A guardsman with a lasgun? No way.
A guardsman with a melta or plasmagun? Hell yes.

Also, keep in mind that a guardsman squad is 50 points. Figure the average +10 points for a veteran sergeant that's been included in the cost (as that's the standard for that upgrade in other codices) makes those 10 guardsmen 40 points. For 4 points you're getting a pretty basic statline, 5+ armor, a lasgun and frag grenades, plus access to orders and weaponry. That's honestly not bad at all. I don't see how they could make Guardsmen any cheaper, since I feel like they're at a solid point right now.

Basic Guardsmen aren't very cost effective, their value primarily comes from being ablative wounds/bubble wrap for something that is cost effective. IG armies don't win through application of lasgun fire and/or bayonets, they win through heavy weapons, ordnance, hidden fists, massed special weapons, etc.

Actually, a guardsman with a lasgun is pretty good for his price, for what he's good at. I mean, guardsmen will beat their points in space marines in a firefight (barely, unless there's cover involved), and lasguns beat bolters per point against light infantry.

The problem is that we're playing 6th ed 40k. On the one hand, you have all of these codices that make things like lasguns irrelevant, either because they have small arms that are the equivalent firepower of heavy weapons (salvo bolters, sonic and pulse weapons, etc.), or the codex is so full of anti-light-infantry madness that you don't even need to bother with small arms at all, whether through good anti-infantry weapons, or through mass spaming of slightly better anti-infantry weapons (mech guard players getting free heavy bolters on everything, for example). The lasgun is just so badly outclassed.

On the other hand, we're talking about it being good against troops choices. So what? We're in 6th edition. The kind of units that win you the game are heavy vehicles or fliers or monstrous creatures, or terminators, or whatever. Things that lasguns can't hurt. Which is bad, because the lasgun can't really do anything else well.

So yes, lasguns and their guardsmen are fairly priced. Unfortunately, they're also an extremely niche weapon, and in this niche they're badly outclassed by things that are willing to be less efficient to have more up-front effectiveness, and it's also a niche that doesn't really need to be filled most of the time.

Plus, back in the day, they were really useful when they were ablative wounds for stuff. Alas...

Individual guardsmen are not worth their costs. This is why no one takes naked IS squads or conscripts without SiNW. Guardsmen are taken to carry a special weapon or heavy weapon around and fire it without the upgrade they are not worth it.

@Brother SRM
Wow, you would value a WS BS S T = 3 sarge the same as a WS BS S T = 4 sarge?

 ansacs wrote:
@Brother SRM
Wow, you would value a WS BS S T = 3 sarge the same as a WS BS S T = 4 sarge?

No but you are paying 10 points for +1A, Character status and access to the armoury, which is pretty reasonable imho. The difference between the both sergeants are the same as the difference between the standard Imperial grunt and a regular MEQ.

Again +1 attack is much much better on one of those options than on the other.

Additionally, If you spend +10 pts to put a power sword on a WS4 S4 model vs a WS3 S3 model which one gets the better deal?

 Shadox wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
@Brother SRM
Wow, you would value a WS BS S T = 3 sarge the same as a WS BS S T = 4 sarge?

No but you are paying 10 points for +1A, Character status and access to the armoury, which is pretty reasonable imho. The difference between the both sergeants are the same as the difference between the standard Imperial grunt and a regular MEQ.

the +1A and character status along with additional weaponry options is in most cases largely irrelevant for an IG sergeant. Look Out Sir has some uses, and blobs getting access to a Powerfist is useful, but most of the time they'll be irrelevant

 ansacs wrote:
Additionally, If you spend +10 pts to put a power sword on a WS4 S4 model vs a WS3 S3 model which one gets the better deal?

The deal is exactly 5 points better, as MEQ pay 15 points for power weapons

A guardsman for 5 points? No. 100 guardsmen for 500 points? God-Emperor yes!

I suppose one of the things you need to consider is the 'intangible' bonus things like "Orders" "combined squads" and the assorted reserve rules for platoons factor into points costs.

Of course, a competent games company would weight that up against 'and they shall know no fear, combat tactics etc.'

Or even, for example, the use of Orders for veteran squads V line squads (less useful, generally speaking).

A competent games company...

only the special units of IG seem to be "over priced" like storm troopers (really my only problem with them is the universes finest non enhanced warriors still have LD 7) and Ratlings are also pricey, at least when compared to something like a sniper Kroot, who is better in every conceivable way imaginable except the extra BS. There also is, of course Penal legion, but lets not talk about them and their terribleness.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
only the special units of IG seem to be "over priced" like storm troopers (really my only problem with them is the universes finest non enhanced warriors still have LD 7) and Ratlings are also pricey, at least when compared to something like a sniper Kroot, who is better in every conceivable way imaginable except the extra BS. There also is, of course Penal legion, but lets not talk about them and their terribleness.

Completely agree on Stormtroopers. They need to lower their points cost a fair amount, increase leadership, & potentially make them a troop choice under certain conditions. As you mentioned Stormtroopers are supposed to be the finest warriors of humanity with the exception of space marines. They should be borderline fearless.

Getting back to guardsmen, I think with proper orders, using go to ground/get back into the fight behind aegis defense line & massing them with a 1-2 tanks is more than viable.

Commissar Benny wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
only the special units of IG seem to be "over priced" like storm troopers (really my only problem with them is the universes finest non enhanced warriors still have LD 7) and Ratlings are also pricey, at least when compared to something like a sniper Kroot, who is better in every conceivable way imaginable except the extra BS. There also is, of course Penal legion, but lets not talk about them and their terribleness.

Completely agree on Stormtroopers. They need to lower their points cost a fair amount, increase leadership, & potentially make them a troop choice under certain conditions. As you mentioned Stormtroopers are supposed to be the finest warriors of humanity with the exception of space marines. They should be borderline fearless.

Getting back to guardsmen, I think with proper orders, using go to ground/get back into the fight behind aegis defense line & massing them with a 1-2 tanks is more than viable.

stormtroopers are a bummer for points, but we are talking about guardsman here, so let me throw in my penny.

I think guardsman really have blown me away with their potential effectiveness. sure most of the time they are trumped by almost every other basic unit in the game, but when a 50-70 point squad wipes out or nullifies a space marine squad or squad with a similar price tag, it really does give you a massive game advantage.

and the lasgun really isn't that bad - its just got a lot of hate. it can still give T4 enemies a real headache, and in their masses its like having a million daggers thrown at you - you won't survive. remember this is a dice game, so statistically the more shots and wounds you deal, the more likely the enemy will be wiped out.

but then again its a dice game, so no guarantee!

summary? guardsman are great.... most of the time, but with no support then you are just wasting your points.be it with more guard or heavy firepower, they need support.

And PL aren't too bad by the way.... they just need some skill to play to give good yield. sadly I no longer have that skill....

GA

General Annoyance wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
only the special units of IG seem to be "over priced" like storm troopers (really my only problem with them is the universes finest non enhanced warriors still have LD 7) and Ratlings are also pricey, at least when compared to something like a sniper Kroot, who is better in every conceivable way imaginable except the extra BS. There also is, of course Penal legion, but lets not talk about them and their terribleness.

Completely agree on Stormtroopers. They need to lower their points cost a fair amount, increase leadership, & potentially make them a troop choice under certain conditions. As you mentioned Stormtroopers are supposed to be the finest warriors of humanity with the exception of space marines. They should be borderline fearless.

Getting back to guardsmen, I think with proper orders, using go to ground/get back into the fight behind aegis defense line & massing them with a 1-2 tanks is more than viable.

stormtroopers are a bummer for points, but we are talking about guardsman here, so let me throw in my penny.

I think guardsman really have blown me away with their potential effectiveness. sure most of the time they are trumped by almost every other basic unit in the game, but when a 50-70 point squad wipes out or nullifies a space marine squad or squad with a similar price tag, it really does give you a massive game advantage.

and the lasgun really isn't that bad - its just got a lot of hate. it can still give T4 enemies a real headache, and in their masses its like having a million daggers thrown at you - you won't survive. remember this is a dice game, so statistically the more shots and wounds you deal, the more likely the enemy will be wiped out.

but then again its a dice game, so no guarantee!

summary? guardsman are great.... most of the time, but with no support then you are just wasting your points.be it with more guard or heavy firepower, they need support.

And PL aren't too bad by the way.... they just need some skill to play to give good yield. sadly I no longer have that skill....

GA

Yeah I kinda went off subject there but as I mentioned above abusing go to ground/get back into the fight each turn is pretty amazing. 2+ save on guardsmen with no penalty? Amazing. Lasguns do get alot of hate but as you mentioned, with enough of them they are devastating. Especially with 1st/2nd rank fire etc. Elysians can use that short range scanner that also allows rerolls to hit. 30 guardsmen firing with 1st, 2nd rank fire + reroll misses lol oh man.

They cost the same as cultists and come with more equipment and better options, and I still think cultists are pretty good value.

So no, I don't buy the 'Guardmen are overcosted' line.

Yes, they are definitly worth their points. You dont bring large numbers of them bescause they have MEQ weapons or armour. You field them because they are dirt chapr, decent enough stats and sufficent equipment in the ways of Lasgun and grenades.

Lasguns can and will drop infantry in sufficient volume. That's the whole idea. The preference for veteran squads is what I believe is chiefly responsible for the dislike for lasguns; when you've only got 4 squads, and their killing power is from their three special weapons, it's easy to consider lasguns totally worthless.

When a 50 man blob squad 1st rank/2nd ranks anything short of Paladins or Meganbobs, then best look out.

I'm personally quite fond of the humble guardsman; they don't need to do much to pay for themselves, and it gives you excellent table control. I also fight a lot of necrons, and striking first in close combat is extremely amusing.

MarsNZ wrote:
They cost the same as cultists and come with more equipment and better options, and I still think cultists are pretty good value.

So no, I don't buy the 'Guardmen are overcosted' line.

Guardsmen are good value, cultists are worse and are not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ansacs wrote:

@Brother SRM
Wow, you would value a WS BS S T = 3 sarge the same as a WS BS S T = 4 sarge?

unfortuneatly that is the formula that GW uses. 10 points gets you +1 attack, +1 leadership, character, and access to the armory. For cultists, it SUCKS hard. For Grotesques it is pretty good.

Guardsmen aren't shoota boy level point efficient, but hey, nothing is.

Consider for a moment what one gets with those crappy infantry models: Leman Russ tanks, Basilisks, Manticores, masses of heavy weapons squads, Vendettas/Valkyries etc.

You don't get the cool toys *and* seriously threatening troops. That is what balance is.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Consider for a moment what one gets with those crappy infantry models: Leman Russ tanks, Basilisks, Manticores, masses of heavy weapons squads, Vendettas/Valkyries etc.

You don't get the cool toys *and* seriously threatening troops. That is what balance is.

Unless you play Tau.

Guardsmen are bad. They serve two purposes, one is to stop enemies from deep striking twin-linked ignores-cover dual meltagun crisis suit squads right next to your tanks. The other is for your sadistic pleasure as they die horribly.

They outshoot marines, and that is about it.

 xole wrote:
Guardsmen are bad. They serve two purposes, one is to stop enemies from deep striking twin-linked ignores-cover dual meltagun crisis suit squads right next to your tanks. The other is for your sadistic pleasure as they die horribly.

They outshoot marines, and that is about it.

One phrase. Guardsman with plasma gun = 15 point dealer of death. 'nuff said here

GA

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Consider for a moment what one gets with those crappy infantry models: Leman Russ tanks, Basilisks, Manticores, masses of heavy weapons squads, Vendettas/Valkyries etc.

You don't get the cool toys *and* seriously threatening troops. That is what balance is.

Half of those aren't particularly good either (e.g. bassy's, HWS's, etc) Nobody is saying IG need to be SM's, only debating as to if their points cost is efficient or not.

 Brother SRM wrote:
They become exponentially more dangerous when given orders and proper support. Of course in a vacuum one Guardsman is going to suck, he's just a dude with hockey armor and a flashlight, It's when he has 50 buddies that he's a problem.

That. It the 200+ dice, you're bound to get a fair number of hits and when you roll those dice you're bound to score enough wounds. A guardsman alone is nothing but a guardsman with the rest of the guard to back him up is a formidable force.