Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So a friend of mine and I were discussing Eldar and anti-air. In tournament level games it seems that his mech-dar are running into troubles when 2-3 air units hit the table (notably hell-chickens or necron air cav) as he lacks dedicated anti-air. Now yes, wave serpents can kick up a LOT of dakka, but it is only hitting on 6s and is somewhat variable on how many shots you're actually looking at. Meanwhile if he disembarks to make it a much larger turn of shooting, he's stalled at wherever he is on the board and his troops are now vulnerable.

I've been working on what to suggest, as I play Tau so normally anti-air isn't a big deal, and have been a bit surprised at the lack of options I'm seeing that don't include "ally in Tau". The best I've come up with is to bring an Aegis with quad gun, and bring that exarch with 8BS, the additional shot, and Tank Hunter and slap him on that quad gun all game. Expensive, but likely quite effective.

Would you guys have any other solid suggestions?

Thanks!

Crimson Hunter - Arguably the best (offensive) Anti-Air in the game right now. If it were tougher, it'd be a really fun model.

Warp Spiders - A LOT of s7 shots. Can reliably hit back armor as well, with their monstrous 6+2d6+d6 movement (up to 24") before shooting. Add guide to to make them even better

War Walkers - not as great, but still a lot of shots

Lastly, with Eldar you have to be creative. We aren't the best at anything, but we can be very tricksy. Mechdar can soak 1 round of fliers, and turbo-boost to avoid the second run. Check out my thread RE: most awesome things. I share a story about my Swooping Hawks immobilizing a vendetta there.

I was under the impression that the wave serpent with a scatter laser was the new anti-aircraft hotness for Eldar?

4 Shots with the laser, twin-linked, so you are extremely likely to get 1 hit anyways, and that twinlinks your serpent shield shot. Hell, the laser is S6, so it's not half bad at chipping away at AV10-11 and can still potentially hurt AV12 flyers.

Once the shield is twinlinked, you are looking at D6 more S7 shots if I'm not mistaken. I think you average 1 more hit with the shield....so you aren't too bad off when you standard transport is averaging 2+ hits, at S6 and S7 no less, against flyers every turn. Multiplied across 3-4 serpents you have a solid chance of taking down a vendetta per turn, and as a bonus your AA power is spread both physically across the board to cover more frontage, and it's not all in 1 basket so it's a lot harder to silence with 1 or 2 lucky shots like the Crimson hunter is.

The icarus lascannon on the ADL is much better with a dark reaper exarch + fast shot you put out 2 S9 AP2 BS5 shots that ignore jink saves.

The crimson hunter really is excellent for killing flyers. It is also much more survivable than people lead you to believe due to vector dance letting the eldar player keep it on the back of the board.

Spiders w/ prescience have a better chance than a quadd gun to put most flyers down. They are very good unit in every way.

Forgeworld has a number of additional options as well (nightwings being my favorite).

Oddly enough I think you will find that a Reaper Exarch with Fast Shot on a Quad Gun is still better against any flier out there than the Lascannon (except against AV13-14 fliers). S7 is enough to pen still, and the extra shots massively outweigh the increased strength.

Someone did a breakdown of the percentage chance of getting a kill against AV10/11/12 fliers with a range of Eldar units a while back. Once you factored in points cost vs effectiveness you end up with two clear cut choices for AA, Crimson Hunters (the Exarch only being a minor boost) and Spiders. Even without Guide the Spiders are the second best AA in the codex for their cost, and that doesn't even factor in the massively increase chance of them hitting AV10 due to their speed.

The Nightwing is probably your best choice. The Crimson Hunter has more firepower, but if you don't get the first shot with it or your opponent has any interceptor guns it will die before it gets to shoot at anything. The Nightwing has good shooting (don't forget vector dancer to get into side/rear armor for the STR 6 guns) and, more importantly, a 2+ jink save. So you have a pretty good chance at keeping your flyer alive if it gets shot at, and the mere threat of a 2+ cover save might convince your opponent not to waste their shooting and focus on something else, even without actually jinking to get it.

"Ally in Tau" seems to be the laymans answer to air.. If you want a WAAC tourney list just play Necrons or tau..
If you want an eldar list? PLAY AS ELDAR!!!
Dark reaper exarch with Icarus canon
Spiders... Lots of spiders...
Crimson..
Nough said

Powerguy wrote:
Oddly enough I think you will find that a Reaper Exarch with Fast Shot on a Quad Gun is still better against any flier out there than the Lascannon (except against AV13-14 fliers). S7 is enough to pen still, and the extra shots massively outweigh the increased strength.

If we were talking about a non fast shot character on the two weapons you would be right. As we are talking about a fast shot eldar exarch with plentiful access to guide you are wrong by almost double for AV11+. The only place a QG is better is AV10 and WS.

LC
AV 10 11 12 13 14
Nothing 0.00 0.32 0.65 0.97 1.30
HP 1.94 1.62 1.30 0.97 0.65
Pen 1.62 1.30 0.97 0.65 0.32
Expl. 0.54 0.43 0.32 0.22 0.11

QG
AV 10 11 12 13 14
Nothing 1.62 2.43 3.24 4.05 4.86
HP 3.24 2.43 1.62 0.81 0.00
Pen 2.43 1.62 0.81 0.00
Expl. 0.41 0.27 0.14 0.00

GreyDragoon wrote:
So a friend of mine and I were discussing Eldar and anti-air. In tournament level games it seems that his mech-dar are running into troubles when 2-3 air units hit the table (notably hell-chickens or necron air cav) as he lacks dedicated anti-air. Now yes, wave serpents can kick up a LOT of dakka, but it is only hitting on 6s and is somewhat variable on how many shots you're actually looking at. Meanwhile if he disembarks to make it a much larger turn of shooting, he's stalled at wherever he is on the board and his troops are now vulnerable.

Really, that's all the dakka you need.

You start with the scatter laser. TL weapons will hit 30% of the time, so you should be hitting with the SL fairly often making all your weapons TL. You then do the underslung and then then serpent shield. That's 7 STR 6 shots and 4.5 STR 7 shots. Your going to be scoring ~2 STR 6 hits and ~1.4 STR 7 hits. If your getting rear arcs on the helldrakes....

Other tools you can use are 'guided' warp spiders. 20 TL shots will hit ~6 times.
You can bring your own flyers. The crimson hunter is hell on wheels to most other flyers.
You can ally with DE and bring ravagers and then TL them.

S6-7 is not effective against most AV12 front/side fliers until turn ~4 when they start showing rear armor to portions of the board. By that time merely chancing on some ~1 pen/glance per WS is chancing a lot while the flier is still able to put out decent firepower. If you encounter a stormraven, you are pretty much screwed if relying on serpents.

Crimson hunter is bad. Unless you are devoting an army to reserve manipulation to keep the hunter off, you stand a good chance of coming on first and dying before firing a shot. It costs WAY too much for an AV10 vehicle with no defensive equip.

So you can go a few ways:
Tau allies: Lots of skyfire here and the commander can grant skyfire if you kit him out and attach him to a unit.

FW: Nightwing is still one of the best fliers in the game.

Quad gun/Lascannon with fast shot exarch.

GK allies: With psykers being more and more common, that GK stormraven turned into a monster of a vehicle. TL MM is a near 50% kill on any vehicle in the game the turn it comes on, and AV12 all sides is hard to kill. GK fill in a lot of the utility gaps while still putting out lot of mid str firepower

until now, I've been a non-FW player.

However, the lack of solutions in the eldar dex to multiple AV12 fliers basically forces me to take the nightwing or take a serious disadvantage in most games. My only alternative is Reaper Exarch + Lascannon + starshot missles for the rest of squad + guide.

I don't think anyone is concerned with AV10/11 fliers. Those are downed by copious amounts of S6/7 spam. But against AV12, you're looking at 30% of shots hitting (With guide), and ~16-33% glancing or penning. At best, with guided S7, you get one in nine shots doing damage. That isn't good enough against multiple AV12 fliers.

 zephoid wrote:
S6-7 is not effective against most AV12 front/side fliers until turn ~4 when they start showing rear armor to portions of the board. By that time merely chancing on some ~1 pen/glance per WS is chancing a lot while the flier is still able to put out decent firepower. If you encounter a stormraven, you are pretty much screwed if relying on serpents.

Crimson hunter is bad. Unless you are devoting an army to reserve manipulation to keep the hunter off, you stand a good chance of coming on first and dying before firing a shot. It costs WAY too much for an AV10 vehicle with no defensive equip.

Most army's anti-air is S7 and they get on fine. Drakes and Ravens are the only AV12 flyers you are likely to see anyway, as all of the new ones have been AV11, so the balance is definitely tipping that way.

As for the Hunter, saying that generally you have a good chance of coming on first is conceited; if you go first then you have such a chance, but if you go second (which Eldar usually want to be) then it is the exact opposite. And it's not like we are short on reserve manipulation. And if gak hits the fan, you come on and then flat out to the enemy board edge where the enemy flyer won't be able to get you, but where you will be able to get him probably next turn due to Vector Dancer.

Also I'd like to point out regarding rear armour that we have plenty of ways to get in the rear armour of flyers. Warp Spiders are fast enough to do it, Wave Serpents can manage it usually by turn 3, and then there is outflanking War Walkers.

Finally, I also don't think we need to worry about flyers too much anyway. Most flyers will struggle to crack Serpents just as much as anything else, and many flyers don't put out a great volume of fire in a single turn. There really isn't the panicked response to kill them immediately that many people seem to be struggling with here.

Honestly the crimson hunter is not that bad. Read some batreps where people have used it and you will realize that vector dancer lets you come on and stay at the back of the board behind ruins.

Flyers do not magically get to keep the rear armour to a board edge. Most (except vector dancer ones) will have to have the rear armour exposed to half the board. The great thing about eldar is they have units that can more 8-24" a turn and get into rear armour. If you are really that concerned then DS some warp spiders behind the flyer. Or out flank some WW, etc.

Most armies who are depending on S7-8 AP3+ without skyfire for AA have Problems with fliers. Thats been the whole complain of 75% of the armies in 40k. S7 vs AV12 fliers in in no way effective when you get 1-2 hits per unit per shooting phase. Drakes, Ravens, and Vendettas are available in about 50% of the armies that enter competitive play. While not all lists will run them, you only need to lose one game to put yourself out of the top bracket in most competitions so you have to be able to deal with them.

No matter where you move your hunter, you are still able to be shot by an incoming flier. He can move on diagonally and actually be in a better position to be able to hit the rest of your army in the following turns. Only the drake will have problems hitting you since it has to fly over you. Even if you manage to avoid the flier, you are now in his deployment with an AV10 vehicle. Any S5+ in his army will be able to shoot you and all he needs is one shaken to put you out of effective combat performance. CH is one of the only fliers in the game that is not TL making its snap shots significantly worse. Only DE fliers are worse. Also, for those games where the enemy has no fliers, the CH is a pretty large investment for some very mediocre firepower. The fact that you MUST bring reserve manipulation to make this unit viable pretty much explains how desperate you have to be to use it as your dedicated AA.

I know how vector dancer works. I have been using Nightwings nearly every other game since 6th dropped and nightwings got their update. However, it only works if the craft survives. Batreps are incredibly unreliable way to judge a unit. You have no idea of the skill or knowledge of the opponent and often little of the skill of the person using the craft.

If you outflank war walkers you are throwing away points. War walkers are in no way durable. One round of shooting will not make them worth tanking. 1 round of shooting is all you will get from outflanking WW, maybe less depending on interceptor.

5 Warp Spiders have a 55% chance to put a pen on AV10 rear fliers. Not exactly reliable. Now any good player will be turn 4 before they have to turn the rear of their flier to the enemy (assuming it comes on turn 2). If you try to force the issue and jump behind them, you are depending on that 2d6 jump to put you far enough away that the enemy small arms fire doesnt rip your warp spiders apart. Warp spiders double as AA only in desperation. WS are much the same, as they are much more useful to be putting wounds on T4 than chancing that 1.2 S6 hits and 1.3 average S7 hits can kill that flier

 zephoid wrote:
S7 vs AV12 fliers in in no way effective when you get 1-2 hits per unit per shooting phase. Drakes, Ravens, and Vendettas are available in about 50% of the armies that enter competitive play. While not all lists will run them, you only need to lose one game to put yourself out of the top bracket in most competitions so you have to be able to deal with them.

That is why you shoot them in the rear. Is quite possible for someone to keep their drakes from getting shot in the rear -- by flying off the board into ongoing reserves every other turn.

I've not run across any Ravens or Vendettas in a long time in RTTs, and did not see any at Adepticon this past year. I don't expect to see many/any at NOVA either. Drakes are probably all your going to have to deal with, and they won't cause major problems to wave serpent spam.

If your planning on playing in top tables, you need to be worried about Tau, Eldar, Daemons, and Drakes. No list your going to write will be able to handle everything. The concept of an all-comers list is not possible in 6th due to the number of new builds. As such you should build your army to face the armies you will be dealing with. This applies more to just RTTs and GTs, it applies to your FLGS and local meta.

 zephoid wrote:
If you outflank war walkers you are throwing away points. War walkers are in no way durable. One round of shooting will not make them worth tanking. 1 round of shooting is all you will get from outflanking WW, maybe less depending on interceptor.

You have looked at the entry for war walkers right? You know they have battle focus and fleet? You can outflank near a nice LoS blocking ruin or other nice terrain shoot then hop behind the terrain. If there is a quad gun pointed at you, you can go behind the terrain.
While walkers can be destroyed quickly, they can hide and deliver shots like nobody's business.

 zephoid wrote:
5 Warp Spiders have a 55% chance to put a pen on AV10 rear fliers. Not exactly reliable.

That is why you guide them. First of all, most lists don't show 5 warp spiders, so lets go with a realistic number. 8.
8 warp spiders will deliver 16 shots. 30% of them will hit when guided. Thats 5.4 hits. That's 3.5964 hull points on average. Seems pretty darn reliable to me.

 zephoid wrote:
Most armies who are depending on S7-8 AP3+ without skyfire for AA have Problems with fliers. Thats been the whole complain of 75% of the armies in 40k. S7 vs AV12 fliers in in no way effective when you get 1-2 hits per unit per shooting phase. Drakes, Ravens, and Vendettas are available in about 50% of the armies that enter competitive play. While not all lists will run them, you only need to lose one game to put yourself out of the top bracket in most competitions so you have to be able to deal with them.

No, that was the complaint, but the whole 'flyers are broken' thing hasn't been discussed in awhile as people have learned how to deal with them in other ways, such as building a list that doesn't have to deal with them for example. Plenty of Eldar lists fall in this catagory, like Serpent SPAM for example. Looking at the flyers you listed even for example; Drakes can't touch you guys when they are in Serpents, the firepower of a Raven is only a main threat when it is focussed to a particular role meaning time is not working against you, and Vendettas are only good against your vehicles also, and still take quite a few of them to take down a single Serpent even with a Holo Field and Shield.

As for your tournament argument, that is not even close to applicable to this argument as not every tournament everywhere is the same. I have never won all of my games at a 40k tournament ever for instance, but yet I commonly place in the 'top brackets' as you call them. What you have said might be true to where you live but don't assume we are all playing in similar events.

 zephoid wrote:
No matter where you move your hunter, you are still able to be shot by an incoming flier. He can move on diagonally and actually be in a better position to be able to hit the rest of your army in the following turns. Only the drake will have problems hitting you since it has to fly over you. Even if you manage to avoid the flier, you are now in his deployment with an AV10 vehicle. Any S5+ in his army will be able to shoot you and all he needs is one shaken to put you out of effective combat performance. CH is one of the only fliers in the game that is not TL making its snap shots significantly worse. Only DE fliers are worse. Also, for those games where the enemy has no fliers, the GH is a pretty large investment for some very mediocre firepower. The fact that you MUST bring reserve manipulation to make this unit viable pretty much explains how desperate you have to be to use it as your dedicated AA.

To each their own I guess, as I've found it to be great in all of my games so far, and I've only faced flyers once and had Reserve Manipulation twice (and it only worked once). As for the idea of it being a big investment, not really. Unless you are playing small games 160pts is not much of anything. I am curious though why you are worrying about ground troops shooting it down in their DZ when the basis of your arguments in this thread have been that ground troops struggle to hit flyers. Seems kind of self-contradicting; care to clarify?

 zephoid wrote:
If you outflank war walkers you are throwing away points. War walkers are in no way durable. One round of shooting will not make them worth tanking. 1 round of shooting is all you will get from outflanking WW, maybe less depending on interceptor.

Sorry, is there some sort of special rule the rest of us are unaware of that makes Walkers more vulnerable for just using outflank? If you are playing in a proper balanced terrain set-up then coming on on the board edge should be no different for the Walkers protection. In general Eldar player should never be exposing their Walkers once they have shot; if they are they are playing them wrong. There should still be terrain for them to hide behind when they are done, and if there isn't for some very strange reason, then you shouldn't be outflanking them for any reason. Are you assuming that there will no terrain on the flanks for some reason, or just that the Eldar player is daft?

 zephoid wrote:
5 Warp Spiders have a 55% chance to put a pen on AV10 rear fliers. Not exactly reliable. Now any good player will be turn 4 before they have to turn the rear of their flier to the enemy (assuming it comes on turn 2). If you try to force the issue and jump behind them, you are depending on that 2d6 jump to put you far enough away that the enemy small arms fire doesnt rip your warp spiders apart. Warp spiders double as AA only in desperation. WS are much the same, as they are much more useful to be putting wounds on T4 than chancing that 1.2 S6 hits and 1.3 average S7 hits can kill that flier

Right except nobody takes only 5 Spiders nor do they take them without Guide, or at least not in good lists anyway, so all you are doing here is assuming an unlikely outcome that happens to suit your stance. In a competitive list you will be seeing at least 8 Spiders and they will usually have access to Guide, which changes that math a hell of a lot. There's always the option to DS behind the flyer too if it is too far away, though that will indeed take some foresight.

But the main issue I have with your point here is why are you so worried? Like I said in the opener, people haven't been up in arms about fighting flyers since last year now, and unless you are playing a truly terrible build Eldar shouldn't have to worry about them too much, as they are resilient to the sort of damage most flyers put out, and can at least make them Jink reliably enough, even if it is not reliable enough for your particular tastes. You do not need Skyfire to deal with flyers. I just really think you are more worried than you need to be, but then again that is your right. I'll just agree to disagree.

I'll defend the Crimson Hunter. Now, it is hard to use, mainly because any decent Anti-Air will take it down. Stuff like Interceptor Quad Guns on a decent BS, as well as other fliers. Therefore, you need to make sure you've eliminated (or engaged) any units that pack Skyfire and that you come on after other fliers. Usually, this means that Turn 3 is fine. To help with this, you can take an Autarch or a Farseer/Eldrad rolling on Divination, which gives you a decent chance of rolling Scrier's Gaze.

Alternatively, a Reaper Exarch on Icarus/Quad Gun or a unit of Spiders is your best bet. The former is a great shooting unit you can use after eliminating fliers, as well as packing Interceptor, and the latter can use its mobility to get round the rear Armour of fliers, so that S6 will usually be against AV10/11 which is when it becomes deadly. And WS are always good too.

Well the reason why a CH is trouble in the enemy DZ is that it is AV10. Nobody worries about AV10 fliers because even small arms or high RoF S5-6 is effective.

The worry is AV12 flyers. I see multiple heldrakes all the time on tables.

The only answer I see is an icarus with appropriately good shooter - and that only deals with (maybe) one enemy AV12 flyer.

It is a problem, no doubt.

Gwyidion wrote:
Well the reason why a CH is trouble in the enemy DZ is that it is AV10. Nobody worries about AV10 fliers because even small arms or high RoF S5-6 is effective.

The worry is AV12 flyers. I see multiple heldrakes all the time on tables.

The only answer I see is an icarus with appropriately good shooter - and that only deals with (maybe) one enemy AV12 flyer.

It is a problem, no doubt.

Why is it a problem? What are those Drakes doing to get your Troops out of your Serpents?

The problem is that it forces you to stay in serpents.

There are a lot of builds (eldar or otherwise) that are negated by the drakes.

I agree that Hunters are a somewhat problematic anti-air solution. They're as good at shooting other flyers as other flyers are at shooting them, and a lot more vulnerable to ground fire. Bizarrely, where Hunters really shine is in a ground attack role; the main use of vector dancer is avoiding ground-based AA or positioning in order to snipe multiwound T4 models and side armor.

Warp Spiders are probably your best bet.

Otherwise, I agree with some others that a mech Eldar list can actually ignore a lot of AV12 flyers until they happen to present rear armor. Heldrakes simply don't have great damage output for their points if they're only able to get a few flamers and a few vector strikes off over the course of a game. They're the only reason I'm a little reluctant to take Spiders in a mech list - one big use of Spiders is AA, but Spiders are likewise one of the best targets in a typical list for a Heldrake.

 labmouse42 wrote:
The problem is that it forces you to stay in serpents.

There are a lot of builds (eldar or otherwise) that are negated by the drakes.

No doubt. I meant why is it a problem for Eldar specifically. You don't need to get out of your Serpents until turn 5, and IMO should be trying to go second anyway. Either way, I found the Crimson Hunter to deal with Drakes fine. I'm not going to preach what to take and what not to take against flyers though, as I've found everybody has their own way of dealing with them that suits them, whether that means going all out AA or taking enough bodies to ignore them.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You don't need to get out of your Serpents until turn 5, and IMO should be trying to go second anyway.

Can you tell me your secret for ensuring that your transports are never destroyed before you want to disembark at the end of the game?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You don't need to get out of your Serpents until turn 5, and IMO should be trying to go second anyway.

Can you tell me your secret for ensuring that your transports are never destroyed before you want to disembark at the end of the game?

When did I ever say they wouldn't be?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
When did I ever say they wouldn't be?

When you said that Helldrakes aren't a problem because you don't have to get out of your transports:

Why is it a problem? What are those Drakes doing to get your Troops out of your Serpents?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
When did I ever say they wouldn't be?

When you said that Helldrakes aren't a problem because you don't have to get out of your transports:

Why is it a problem? What are those Drakes doing to get your Troops out of your Serpents?

I still never said the transports will never get popped. The conversation is about someone being worried that uncontrolled Drakes will wreck their army. I said as a counter to stay in your transports. I never said the transports will never get popped, I never said this counter will work 100% of the time, all I did was present it to display a counter to Heldrakes that doesn't involve killing all three of them. At a basic level, the point was that Drakes won't pop your Serpents, so they aren't the thing to worry about killing.

That being said, Wave Serpents are notoriously hard to pop thanks to Holo Fields, and sometimes Serpent Shields depending on the situation. If you can afford to fire at any AT units then you should be gravy. That's how Serpent SPAM rolls in general anyway, so it's not much different to when you aren't playing against Drakes, which has kind of been the point all along.

There is no doubt that heldrakes are the worst offender against eldar as the vector strike is almost designed to kill our vehicles and the flamer is perfect against our best infantry (my spiders cry).

On the positive side the heldrake has to close on you to vector strike and flame which allows you to hit the rear armour easier. What this equates to is that eldar v heldrake fights end up being a bullfight were you have to kill it as it comes after you.

The most interesting thing is that WK + guided spiders is actually the strongest combo against heldrakes as you need the board control the WK gives you to not get hedged in by the heldrake so you can jump in behind the heldrake after it flies on.

The nightwing is fantastic. I will not argue against that but many people will not or cannot field it. If the OP can/will use a nightwing I would recommend that as option #1.

The firestorm redoubt is actually really useful against heldrakes as they tend to be the closest flyer. They also give you a 3+++ on your vaul battery/farseer, a LOS blocking terrain piece for your WW, and a bunker for you dark reapers. I am looking into figuring out an eldar version of this right now as it just adds so much to an eldar force.

I was looking at the Nightwing alright, and I'm just not sure 2 Bright Lances will cut it in that role. That being said it is a much better generalist fighter than the Crimson Hunter and more resilient while being less points, so in ForgeWorld allowed lists if you have enough Lance etc. otherwise, I would say Nightwing is certainly better.

As for your point on the Drake ansacs, I will admit now, I did forget that Vector Strike will ignore Holo-Fields completely, so that does make them more of problem. You can avoid it by deploying the Serpents far back enough alright, but that is admittedly allowing the Drake to dictate your deployment and/or movement, so I concede, I may have to rethink my stance of this one a little bit. All part of the learning process though

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I was looking at the Nightwing alright, and I'm just not sure 2 Bright Lances will cut it in that role.

Don't forget about vector dancer. Most flyers are AV 10/11 on the back, and mass STR 6 is better against low AV than small numbers of powerful shots. And of course the non-Helldrake/Vendetta flyers are AV 10/11 everywhere.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I was looking at the Nightwing alright, and I'm just not sure 2 Bright Lances will cut it in that role.

Don't forget about vector dancer. Most flyers are AV 10/11 on the back, and mass STR 6 is better against low AV than small numbers of powerful shots. And of course the non-Helldrake/Vendetta flyers are AV 10/11 everywhere.

Well my own list is not worried at all about AV10/11. Didn't know the Nightwing had Vector Dancer though. What publication has its most recent rules? IA11 seems a bit outdated.