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Lmao that is ridiculous, but i like the varied one a bit better, but its too late to get into this tonight, talk to you in the morning.

No !!! :cccccc

Space Marines are the most iconic army in Warhammer! It'd be fraudulent if they weren't straight aces!

Anyway, you got Vitality and Attacks to break it up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How do you feel about the statline going like this?

........................................M..BS..St..WS..D...S....T....A....V....F...C....Type
Space Marine...................5....5....5....5....5....5....5....1....1....5....5....Infantry, Biological
Imperial Guardsman.........5....4....5....4....5....3....3....1....1....4....5....Infantry, Biological
Tau Fire Warrior..............5....4....5....3....3....3....4....1....1....3....5....Infantry, Biological
Eldar Guardian.................7....4....5....5....5....3....3....1....1....4....5....Infantry, Biological
Ork Boy...........................5....2....5....5....4....4....4....2....1....3....5....Infantry, Biological
Hormagaunt.....................6....3....5....4....5....4....3....2....1....3....5....Infantry, Biological
Necron Warrior................4....5....5....4....3....5....5....1....1....7....5....Infantry, Mechanical (?)
Plaguebearer of Nurgle....3....0....5....4....3....5....5....1....1....7....5....Infantry, Spawn (?)

As hilarious as that Statline is, i still think Space Marines need stealth and dexterity 4, and mobility 6". Thy cant, and snd shouldn't, be good at everything

That's not even a valid argument in this case...cuz Stealth got upped for everyone, and mobility got reduced for everyone.

Why? Just increasing stats across the board is not a good solution, and if you drop movement to 5 as average average charge distance is only 2 inches.

Rav1rn wrote:
Why? Just increasing stats across the board is not a good solution, and if you drop movement to 5 as average average charge distance is only 2 inches.

Well firstly you round up, so it's 3 inches, secondly, why is it not a good solution? We're not just increasing them because we can, we're not JUST doing it to make SMs 5s across the board, there are other reasons previously stated.

I know i said they should have 5's, but if 4 is the standard and 5 is improved, a marine should not have improved stealth and dexterity, we went over this a while ago, theyre not going to be stealthy or agile, its not something they are capable of.

And yes it's not just for those reasons, but we need to make better systems for increasing survivability. I dont particularly where we get these ideas from, we could probably even open a new thread to ask for ideas on this topic, but increasing stats is a heavy handed approach im not a fan of.

And I'd rather have the general rule for halving be round down, rather than round up, since i feel if you need to make a special case where you change the rounding, it feels much better for it to be an improvement rather than a penalty. Also, since 40K players are used to having 6" moves as standard, i think changing that would frustrate players at the very least, potentially even turning off many players, for no real benefit in return.

I know i said they should have 5's, but if 4 is the standard and 5 is improved, a marine should not have improved stealth and dexterity, we went over this a while ago, theyre not going to be stealthy or agile, its not something they are capable of.

It ISN'T improved stealth or dexterity. They have the same effective stealth and dexterity as they ever did.

And I'd rather have the general rule for halving be round down, rather than round up, since i feel if you need to make a special case where you change the rounding, it feels much better for it to be an improvement rather than a penalty. Also, since 40K players are used to having 6" moves as standard, i think changing that would frustrate players at the very least, potentially even turning off many players, for no real benefit in return.

Why do you want it to be rounding down? Rounding up will ALWAYS be an improvement, because I want every value to be "the higher the better".

It ISN'T improved stealth or dexterity. They have the same effective stealth and dexterity as they ever did.

How? If they were at 4's before, theyre now at 5.

And rounding down because thats whats used now, and i personally like it. But its the second part of the quoted section i worry about.

I thought you wanted Space Marines to have 5s all around, because they're iconic?

How?

And rounding down because thats whats used now, and i personally like it. But its the second part of the quoted section i worry about.

How? Because everyone who had worse stealth and dexterity STILL have worse stealth and dexterity, while everyone who had better stealth and dexterity STILL have better stealth and dexterity, while everyone who had similar stealth and dexterity STILL have similar stealth and dexterity. NOTHING'S CHANGED. It's as if stealth and dexterity were average 5 all along.

And you've got no other alternatives to making things more survivable. If Stealth was average 5 while BS was average 4, and Strength/Defense had the same average, things will be dying on a 5+, 4+ (1/6). While, right now things will be dying on a 4+, 4+, 4+ (assuming average bs is 3 and average Sv is 4+). That's 1/8 of the time. Obviously this will be accelerated by better armies - such as high Strength Tau guns, or high BS Space Marines.

Also where is rounding down used now? I've never seen it.

Rounding down is the default rule if i remember correctly, it just doesn't come up often. And yes I wanted them at fives all around until we started doing things like stealth and dexterity, where it makes no sense for them to have stats that high. I dont care if the stealth average has been raised to a 5, its still the same numerical value as the others, so its not going to feel right, especially when the average for everything else is still a 4.

And yes I have no solution, but thats why we can ask the community on a new topic, which im just about to open for this.

Rounding down is the default rule if i remember correctly, it just doesn't come up often.

Can you gimme an example?

I want rounding up to be the default rule, and I want every value to be better if it's higher.

Unfortunately, i dont have access to either my old rulebook or my friends new 6th edition rulebook, i could be remembering it wrong, but im fairly certain im not.

So now what?

I think we can both agree that it would be best to round up, with higher values always being better.

It's a bit futile getting into such an argument about Stealth and Dexterity. So I'll let you have it, the average for all stats remain at 4. But we still need to address the issue of things dying too quickly.

It's a bit futile getting into such an argument about Stealth and Dexterity. So I'll let you have it, the average for all stats remain at 4. But we still need to address the issue of things dying too quickly.

i agree, i opened that new thread, hopefully well get good ideas off of it. I'd say something like moving increases stealth and/or decreases BS, though that could be very over or underpowered so well see, not to mention being a pain keeping track of. Range modifiers should help with the heavier weaponry, but we do need to deal with that 24" bubble of ideal range where those modifiers don't come into play. Anything from some sort of cover command (Not going to ground though), to Wargear options like "a unit may replace Krak grenades with smoke grenades", to simply saying more cover should be on the board than 25% of the area might work.

I like the idea of a cover command, maybe they take a -1 BS penalty for gaining a +1 stealth modifier, idk

Can you expand on this command/order idea? I'd rather not have the command stat, or any stat, to represent how many commands you can give, but maybe characters give 1, and ICs give 2.

Can you expand on this command/order idea? I'd rather not have the command stat, or any stat, to represent how many commands you can give, but maybe characters give 1, and ICs give 2.

im basically working off of Lanrak's idea of a command bubble of variable range, and they have a number of command points they can spend every activation on issuing orders, or by sacrificing their own attacks(whether Melee or shooting) to give a reroll to a squad member, maybe call it guidance or something, and also things like sharing the leaders morale would take a command point i guess?

Standard sergeants would have no command points, veteran sergeants would have 1 command point and a command range of just their unit. Independant characters would have 1 to 3 command points typically, with a range from just the unit theyre attached to, up to 12" away. Maybe special characters can have more command points and/or a greater range. If a model has a command range larger than just their unit, they may issue orders to any other unit in range as if they were in that unit.

Other ideas are things like sacrificing an attack to do a reverse look out sir type thing where they help a squad member dodge an attack, though whether thats by increasing defense or offering a reroll are both possibilities. Splitting fire would be interesting as a command, though potentially overpowered, but it would let people use larger squads with heavy weapons in them more effectively, without resorting to systems like combat squads. Re rolling a failed rally could be an option, as well as rallying at under 50% strength, both taking a command point.

I agree its kind of a shame that command would be negligible on most models, but a better way of looking at it is how Lanrak's command/orders could make many units much more exciting and interesting combined with the new PRC. I make this assumption on the fact that we will probably need to make specialist and rare units more powerful to compensate for their lower numbers and difficulty in taking. Giving some units in these categories command/order abilities would radically alter how they can be deployed and utilized, on top of making them stronger. For example, if we changed the Space marine HQ and Specialist options, bringing back the cheap force commander option, and moving librarians and chaplains to specialist units, where i feel they should be rather than HQ's, they can be given command/orders and be made extremely powerful, through their support of the rest of the army, even more so than they do standard right now, while still competing for other powerful choices, potentially dreadnoughts if thats where they end up, veterans squads, battle tanks, etc.

This system would also make you think more about squads that dont get access to leaders, and how you can utilize your unit choices to take advantage of orders despite this, as tyranids would likely have to do with gaunts and warriors for example, or necron warriors and members of the royal court, or chaos daemons and heralds. Leaders would also become more powerful, especially veteran ones, so the danger of losing them, combined with the higher damage output of leaders would make people think more about how to use what they have, as to take advantage of the models abilities, it has to be exposed to danger, but losing them means losing orders. It would also give us as designers great power to determine what veteran upgrades should cost, as we know people will consider it at much higher points than are currently typical of a veteran upgrade.

As to the stat not saying how many orders they an give, i like the [6"] / 2 type format to describe a command range of six inches with 2 command points, but i guess you could do a combination of morale and command, where command describes the range their commands can be given, and morale 9 gives the sergeant the "wont run" type deal but no command points, morale 10 gives 1 command point, morale 11 gives 2 command points, and morale 12 gives 3 command points, as id expect leaders to be in control of their units and not run, unless the squad broke,and thus have the highest morale values on the scale.

I'd rather not have the command stat, or any stat, to represent how many commands you can give, because from what you're saying, it could be extremely overpowered and slight changes in command will be devastating/devastatingly good.

I'd suggest that if you are a Character, you are allowed to issue one command per turn. Here are some ideas:

Support: One model within 3" may reroll, at the Character's BS, failed To Hit rolls until the end of the turn.
Inspire: Models within 6" gain +1 Fortitude when making a morale check until the end of the opponent's next turn.
Take Cover!: The unit gains +1 Stealth until the end of the opponent's next turn
Hasten: This turn, the unit Runs and Charges +1".
Escort: One unit member (except Characters) gains Safeguard (4+) until the end of the opponent's next turn.

Maybe Independent Characters can have more of these commands, but also unique ones.

combined with the new PRC

Can we keep it to an FOC? What does PRC even stand for...Also, which FOC are you talking about? My one with the colours and stuff, or Lanrak's core/specialist/restricted one?

Yes the PRC is lanrak's Common, Specialist, Rare system. I think it stands for proportional rarity composition (PRC). You'r color one was almost the same idea, which i like, but i still think support should be its own slot that doesnt affect the ability to take specialist or rare units. This way we can put things like transports, retinue's, etc in there.

I'd rather not have the command stat, or any stat, to represent how many commands you can give, because from what you're saying, it could be extremely overpowered and slight changes in command will be devastating/devastatingly good.

Yes but there are several other factors in play with my idea. Firstly, orders are very powerful, similar to psychic powers in 6th edition. However, they appear more powerful than they really are, which means that we can raise the price and lower the availability of models that can issue commands, and people will still see them as valuable and consider them, even at prices far above what would normally reasonable. For instance, no-one would pay 150 points or more for a stock chapter master right now, but let him cast 3 orders a turn with a 12" range, suddenly he looks extremely valuable, even at incredibly increased prices. Every decision players make to get these orders means that many points taken away from the rest of the army. Also, we can strictly control how many orders a model has, whether we determine the number of orders on the command stat, or using morale, or even just saying it in a special rule or something. Strict control over orders is crucial, but it can be easily playtested.

Support: This turn, one unit member may reroll failed To Hit rolls (this will probably be the missile launcher or something).
Inspire: The unit gains +1 Fortitude when making a morale check until the end of the opponent's next turn.
Take Cover!: The unit gains +1 Stealth until the end of the opponent's next turn
Hasten: This turn, the unit Runs and Charges +1".
Escort: One unit member (except Characters) gains Safeguard (4+) until the end of the opponent's next turn.

Love the names. Support and Inspire sound great. Inspire should probably be until the end of the game turn, since players are going to be trading activation turns a lot during one game turn. Take cover looks good, i'd kinda like them to take a -1 BS penalty for doing so, but lets see how it plays out. Hasten feels a bit weak, i'm not really sure where i'd take it to make it stronger though. Escort doesn't really feel like it should grant an invulnerable save, much less that good of one, but i see the logic of it, so lets see how it works out.

How do you feel about this as a way to limit orders. In order for a character to give an order, he must forfeit all shooting that activation, and 1 attack if he should be in melee. I like it, since it makes players decide early on whether they want to take advantage of his increased combat abilities, or just run him as an order machine, since by giving orders he becomes that much less dangerous in direct combat. This would let us increase the combat capabilities of characters to a degree.

Maybe Independent Characters can have more of these commands, but also unique ones.

Great idea, though we'd have to be extremely careful here, since this would be more likely to make something overpowered than 1 command point too many here or there.

Still don't want stats to determine how many commands you can give. Even a difference of 1 could be WAAAAAAAAAAY OP. I'd say we stick it to 1 for 80% of all cases.

Take Cover!: The unit gains +2 Stealth but suffers -1 Dexterity and may only fire Snap Shots (-4BS) until the end of the opponent's next turn.

I think this makes it underpowered in most situations, but +2 Stealth could be extremely beneficial in some cases. The Dexterity loss is because imagine this situation:

You're a simple Guardsman following your Sergeant's orders, so you go ahead and take cover. But while trying to find a good spot, in the corner of your eye you see a horde of hungry Tyranids! -> proceed to get eaten.

Mm, how's this

...........................................HQ.......................................
.............................................||........................................
...............................==============......===========
============.......||...Core...Core...||===||...Support...||
||...Specialist...||===||...Core...Core...||===||...Support...||
||...Specialist...||===||...Core...Core...||===||...Support...||
||...Specialist...||===||...Core...Core...||===||...Support...||
||...Specialist...||===||...Core...Core...||===||...Support...||
||...Specialist...||===||...Core...Core...||===||...Support...||
============.......==============......===========

Can't be bothered to colour it in, but you get the gist.

Still don't want stats to determine how many commands you can give. Even a difference of 1 could be WAAAAAAAAAAY OP. I'd say we stick it to 1 for 80% of all cases.

Think of them like psychic powers, for the most part increasing a models mastery level will not be gamebreaking, unless theyre eldar with all their awesome powers. Similarly, 95% or more of all models would have 2 or less command points, with only rare exceptions like chapter masters, autarchs, grand masters, etc, having 3.

Take Cover!: The unit gains +2 Stealth but suffers -1 Dexterity and may only fire Snap Shots (-4BS) until the end of the opponent's next turn.

yeah that might be a bit too much in the other direction, lol but having them lose dexterity is a good idea.

I like that chart, but id have very few support slots instead of many. Also, i like the idea of there being a rare slot, but for the life of me i havnt been able to find a good way to distinguish what goes in it vs what goes in specialist, so id agree that we can drop it all together.

Think of them like psychic powers, for the most part increasing a models mastery level will not be gamebreaking, unless theyre eldar with all their awesome powers. Similarly, 95% or more of all models would have 2 or less command points, with only rare exceptions like chapter masters, autarchs, grand masters, etc, having 3

I'm going to reason like this.

- Psyker's, right now, do not have their own stat reflecting their mastery level. Instead, they have "Psyker (Mastery Level 1)".
- Therefore, Characters should not have their own stat either. They should have "Character (Command 1)".

Good logic, but then we have command as a stat just representing the range they can cast orders in, which sounds good.

Well, we don't need that either, because it would say in the command how far the range is, just like how it says in the psychic power.

However for just Characters I would keep the command to their squad only.

OK, so we'd have something like Character (Command 2, 6") or something?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, so for the areas on the outside of the Universal Resolution Chart, do we want those to be auto hits/wound and auto/misses fails or what? We could do the reroll system that 40k has, but im not sure.

Autohits and misses could frustrate players, but rerolls could really slow things down.

DEFINITELY autohits and misses. How would it frustrate players? It's their fault they tried to assault a Land Raider with Fire Warriors, and it's their fault they let their squishy HQ get squished by a Wraithlord

I would just have Character (Command 2) then, in the commands have the range (just like psychic powers), because some commands don't have range and just affect his unit.

Also, do you want there to be a "command test" like a psychic test?

DEFINITELY autohits and misses. How would it frustrate players? It's their fault they tried to assault a Land Raider with Fire Warriors, and it's their fault they let their squishy HQ get squished by a Wraithlord

Ok, i was just checking, i agree on most of those points.

I would just have Character (Command 2) then, in the commands have the range (just like psychic powers), because some commands don't have range and just affect his unit.

I would argue that having the orders range be due to the character's abilities should be what differentiates it from psychic powers. And the idea of command ranges is that they could issue these "unit orders" to units other than their own.

Also, do you want there to be a "command test" like a psychic test?

Im not really set on how to deply orders. A command test (Whether that be by using their command stat, or by using the morale stat) would be one way to go about it, and probably the best. Something where they forfeit attacks is another. I really want command to not just feel like altered pschic powers, but something completely different.

That would be a bit weird, I think the Characters should only command their own squad, you don't see a fire dragon exarch ordering commands on a banshee squad o.O

Characters forfeiting attacks is one way to do it...but then they're really only used for commands, and I don't want it that way. Otherwise you're paying 5-10 points (?) on an order machine, and I don't really want that.

No things like sergeants, exarchs, nobs, etc have a command range of 0 so they can only issue orders to their squad. Units with command ranges above 0 can give orders to units besides their own, and no squad leaders will have command range above 0.

Well great, that means less and less models are even going to have a command range! You're really just making a stat for 5% of all models...why not just include it in the commands :S