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Draigo is their Chapter Master equivalent with 4w 4a. Grand Masters are now closer to captains, like DA company masters.

Allright, if W3, A3 grand masters are the equivalent of captains then what are brother captains?

I like the new SM rumors but overall I feel very disappointed in that the game as a whole is loosing the whole marine 3+ feeling. Power armour just feels less and less important with all the AP2/3/rending weapons out there. Its almost like it would be nice to have an option to save points in SM armies by downgrading the power armours to carapace armours for line units (no, scouts still sucks like nothing else for what they cost) since in too many cases...what´s the point. *sarcasm*

 Pyriel- wrote:

Draigo is their Chapter Master equivalent with 4w 4a. Grand Masters are now closer to captains, like DA company masters.

Allright, if W3, A3 grand masters are the equivalent of captains then what are brother captains?

I like the new SM rumors but overall I feel very disappointed in that the game as a whole is loosing the whole marine 3+ feeling. Power armour just feels less and less important with all the AP2/3/rending weapons out there. Its almost like it would be nice to have an option to save points in SM armies by downgrading the power armours to carapace armours for line units (no, scouts still sucks like nothing else for what they cost) since in too many cases...what´s the point. *sarcasm*

First officer, like Riker in power armor. GK tend to split up into smaller formations than company regularly.

Brother captains used to lead single squads of Terminators even.

So I´m stuck with one overpriced in-the-warp "chapter master" that I cannot customize what so ever? Nice.
Then again, why am I complaining, the poor IH players didnt even get one single special character, all they are stuck with if they want a fluffy army is a MotF with cannot die but at least they can gear him up like they want to.

Its almost as if you guys feel entitle to write the rules and fluff for the founding Chapters!

 SickSix wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:
Shrike can now only allow Jump Infantry to infiltrate, any word on whether or not he's keeping his other "old" rules, or does he only get the infiltrate?

I think what they have done is taken at least one old SC rule away from them to create the CT and leave the SC with the other half of the rules. Look at Vulcan, he lost the TL flamers but keeps the TL Meltas. And it seems the same for the others, like Lysander lost bolter drill because all IF get that (or a version of it) now.

All Shrike had for him were the one unit he could infiltrate (I'm glad they limited it to jump infantry, infiltrating termies with a jp character is silly) and giving army wide Fleet. Not whining mind you, but it seems like he got hit pretty hard compared to the other SC's.

Crazyterran wrote:

Leth wrote:Yea, sometimes when I was fighting my friends Tau I would fire the ignore cover shot, even if it didn't break armor because it was the difference between a 4+ save and a 3+ cover /2+ go to ground save.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
I know. But, why would you use that against an Aegis Line when a S5 shot will do more damage?

The S4 AP5 is great against non-marines in area terrain, but, other than that... >.>

Because personally the things I've seen behind an Aegis are Plaguebearers on an Objective, Guardsmen and Firewarriors. S4,AP5 works fine on them if it can keep them from gaining cover saves. Especially the first two.

Yes, but if the guy is behind an Aegis Line and you shoot a Whirlwind's S5 AP4 barrage weapon against them, it will ignore the intervening Aegis Line regardless. (Unless your shot scatters so bad that the hole ends up on the other side of the Aegis Line.)

Using 'Aegis Line' as a reason to use the S4 shot is wrong.

You know guardsmen just Go to Ground versus that anyways and the AP5 one still denies their armor saves AND their cover saves, right? And against Plaguebearers, since they pull cover Shenanigans (I believe they have shrouded?) and aren't hampered by Fearless anymore, they'll just spend the entire game going to ground. About the only ones who don't have an advantage doing it is the Tau.

I'm hoping devastators can take heavy flamers. How awesome would a drop pod of those be for Salamanders! Never understood why they didn't have that option any way.

Agree with the Chapter Master thing. While its nice to get the extra W and A...it would have been nice to purchase different USRs and bonuses to build unique DIY Chapters.
IH follow-on with IWND and MC Thunderhammers (now to cast Iron Arm on myself).
IF with Tank-Hunter and Scoring Devastators/Heavy (come get some).
Raven Guard with Move Through Cover and T/L flamers (fast and toasty).
BTs with Zealot and Rage. (we don't hate you...we despise the very ground you walk on.)

GW really missed a chance to expand Space Marines into a thousand different Chapters where each player can define an army that matches the players style and personality.

I have a feeling heavy flamers will still be a special weapon for Vet squads and Sisters.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I have a feeling heavy flamers will still be a special weapon for Vet squads and Sisters.

At least Sternguard finally come with a plastic one.

Anyone else wish they would bring back the True Grit rule? It was pretty cool to have for certain units.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Anyone else wish they would bring back the True Grit rule? It was pretty cool to have for certain units.

I'd rather just have a bolt pistol and CCW, or 2 attacks base. It was cool to have units specialized in taking charges, but it generally meant people just wouldn't want to charge them very often.

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm hoping devastators can take heavy flamers. How awesome would a drop pod of those be for Salamanders! Never understood why they didn't have that option any way.

I actually don't understand why tac squads can't take heavy flamers, either. You can go combimelta/plasma, regular melta/plasma, and multimelta/plasma cannon...Why not triple flamers too?

 tomjoad wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm hoping devastators can take heavy flamers. How awesome would a drop pod of those be for Salamanders! Never understood why they didn't have that option any way.

I actually don't understand why tac squads can't take heavy flamers, either. You can go combimelta/plasma, regular melta/plasma, and multimelta/plasma cannon...Why not triple flamers too?

You are absolutely correct, why cant you have a heavy flamer option for your heavies.

 tomjoad wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm hoping devastators can take heavy flamers. How awesome would a drop pod of those be for Salamanders! Never understood why they didn't have that option any way.

I actually don't understand why tac squads can't take heavy flamers, either. You can go combimelta/plasma, regular melta/plasma, and multimelta/plasma cannon...Why not triple flamers too?

Coming from playing Sisters I can't imagine anyone would want one if they had to pay 15-20 points for the thing though. Maybe if it were 10 like the Multi-Melta (that way it was pricier than a flamer, but not 4x as much for a single point of strength and AP improvement). Alright, I lied a little. I enjoyed using them as they were handy for all sorts of things, but not everyone agrees with me on their usefulness when a model goes from 12 points to 32 points with nary a real improvement but a 8" template that she may never get a chance to use. 34 points for a Tactical Marine with a Heavy Flamer doesn't sound that hot either.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Coming from playing Sisters I can't imagine anyone would want one if they had to pay 15-20 points for the thing though. Maybe if it were 10 like the Multi-Melta (that way it was pricier than a flamer, but not 4x as much for a single point of strength and AP improvement). Alright, I lied a little. I enjoyed using them as they were handy for all sorts of things, but not everyone agrees with me on their usefulness when a model goes from 12 points to 32 points with nary a real improvement but a 8" template that she may never get a chance to use. 34 points for a Tactical Marine with a Heavy Flamer doesn't sound that hot either.

Honestly, the difference is drop pods. In Blood Angels, I gladly use a five man squad with two hand flamers and a regular flamer in a pod. A triple-twin-linked-flamer squad in an Ultramarines list would probably be worth 15-20 for the heavy flamer against xenos armies.

 Pyriel- wrote:
So I´m stuck with one overpriced in-the-warp "chapter master" that I cannot customize what so ever? Nice.

He is Lysander, just better. He has Eternal Warrior, 2+/3++ save, iirc strikes at initiative with his Titansword, makes some of your units (regardless of type) scoring. I don't see what's wrong with him ...

The only really downside I see is that you can't give him a Psycannon in addition

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ph34r wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
The Ultra's are special because frankly they aren't special

 mwnciboo wrote:
So is it any surprise they need something to show they are reasonable at everything and maybe very good at shooting?

 mwnciboo wrote:
The Ultra's [...] aren't special

 mwnciboo wrote:
So is it any surprise they need something to show they are [...] very good at shooting?

Based on what mwnciboo said, yes it's pretty surprising that a chapter that isn't special needs special rules to show they are better at shooting (while not being special).

What I mean't to say and didn't was that in a game where every force and his dog has special abilities, the C:SM being reasonable at everything does leave them open to major amounts of butthurt - I've lost count of the number of times SW and BA have out shot my Gunline army in 5th edition (things like 5 x HW Long fangs with Fire-control?

So my supposedly "Good" Shooty Army gets outshot by Space puppies with discounted points. C:SM players did get bummed a lot, especially by things like BA with their FAST TANKS? Codex Chapters and their pinnacle the UM's, needed something to level the playing field, and bearing in mind that a Space marine is super human and shooty, but is only as Accurate as an IG Veteran, something has to give. Other Forces have different flavours, but codex marines are all about shooting.

In a world where every Codex has lots of Special Rules and Force Multipliers, C:SM (certainly in 5th) was sub-optimal and you just had to lube up, bend over and take it.

 mwnciboo wrote:
In a world where every Codex has lots of Special Rules and Force Multipliers, C:SM (certainly in 5th) was sub-optimal and you just had to lube up, bend over and take it.

SM might suffer somewhat in some circles, but in my experience at least Null Zone, Thunderfire Cannons, TH/SS etc are all fairly great features of the basic SM codex that they do better than other people. Though now they will be losing Null Zone and cheaper TH/SS, I understand that they need something in return.

However it's kind of a bummer that Codex adherent SM are now the best at shooting. UM rules undercut even GW's special rules for other chapters in the book. Can you really feel special as a IF player if your bolter excellence actually puts you at still worse off than Ultras and the other 80% of chapters based on ultras? Must suck to be objectively worse at the main thing you are supposed to be good at than the vast majority of no-fluff chapters out there. In fact we should more or less consider SW, BA, DA, and CSM legions/warbands to be abhorrently bad at basic bolter marine training, weird anomalies in poor training ability that are luckily restricted to a very few chapters.

 CKO wrote:
Am I the only one that think that all of the Chapter tactics are good?

Iron Hands Chapter Master 4 wounds with It will not die.

White Scars hit and run with bikes equal twin-linked bolters plus Hammer of Wraith Attacks.

Raven Guard stealth flyers, 3+ cover saves for infantry.

I ask again what is the problem?

I particularly like the Raven Guard CT.

I'm hoping Scouts still get the same bonus from cloaks so they can get a 2+ cover save in a ruin.

The White Scars one is good too.

The one I'm not too sure about is the one for my old Marine army... Iron Hands. Ok so it's a 6+ fnp, which tbh is good on Crons, so that's ok, but then IWND... I'm not seeing the good here as it's only on IC.

People have explained it to me, but I just don't see how good the IH one is.

Puscifer wrote:
I'm hoping Scouts still get the same bonus from cloaks so they can get a 2+ cover save in a ruin.

Well, even if it doesn't stack... that'd still be 2 points saved per scout.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I have a feeling heavy flamers will still be a special weapon for Vet squads and Sisters.

At least Sternguard finally come with a plastic one.

I'm thinking, at least with Salamanders, a 5-man Sternguard squad with two Heavy flamers and maybe 3 combi-flamers in a drop pod will be a cheap and powerful infantry killer. Even small TEQ units will have to fear them with all the S5 re-rolled wounds they'll be taking...

Back on the subject of the IH CT, I might just use these rules for a Sons of Antaeus army.

Definitely fits their background and fluff.

I just wish that there was an official chapter badge for them.

 ph34r wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
In a world where every Codex has lots of Special Rules and Force Multipliers, C:SM (certainly in 5th) was sub-optimal and you just had to lube up, bend over and take it.

SM might suffer somewhat in some circles, but in my experience at least Null Zone, Thunderfire Cannons, TH/SS etc are all fairly great features of the basic SM codex that they do better than other people. Though now they will be losing Null Zone and cheaper TH/SS, I understand that they need something in return.

However it's kind of a bummer that Codex adherent SM are now the best at shooting. UM rules undercut even GW's special rules for other chapters in the book. Can you really feel special as a IF player if your bolter excellence actually puts you at still worse off than Ultras and the other 80% of chapters based on ultras? Must suck to be objectively worse at the main thing you are supposed to be good at than the vast majority of no-fluff chapters out there. In fact we should more or less consider SW, BA, DA, and CSM legions/warbands to be abhorrently bad at basic bolter marine training, weird anomalies in poor training ability that are luckily restricted to a very few chapters.

Ultramarines and successors spend more time drilling the basics (they have a crazy daily schedule) while the others take time out of basic marksmanship to learn things like tank hunting, being sneaky, or replacing body parts with mechanical parts.

I am too busy being happy about the prospect of combi-flamer parts FINALLY

Puscifer wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Am I the only one that think that all of the Chapter tactics are good?

Iron Hands Chapter Master 4 wounds with It will not die.

White Scars hit and run with bikes equal twin-linked bolters plus Hammer of Wraith Attacks.

Raven Guard stealth flyers, 3+ cover saves for infantry.

I ask again what is the problem?

I particularly like the Raven Guard CT.

I'm hoping Scouts still get the same bonus from cloaks so they can get a 2+ cover save in a ruin.

The White Scars one is good too.

The one I'm not too sure about is the one for my old Marine army... Iron Hands. Ok so it's a 6+ fnp, which tbh is good on Crons, so that's ok, but then IWND... I'm not seeing the good here as it's only on IC.

People have explained it to me, but I just don't see how good the IH one is.

Well considering you get a 6+ FnP on EVERY model it's actually alright, but I think a W4 character on a bike (thus T5) with artificer armor and a storm shield (2+/3++) and 6+ FnP and IWND is pretty resilient. TH or PF would suit thi guy well...(but I'll admit it's not very fluffy as iron hands are not known for their biking leaders)... The only thing I am not really a fan of is the +1 to blessing of the omnissiah. I would have preferred something like all sergeants having it or maybe all vehicles having the rhinos repair function. Let's see what the supplement will bring...

While I know that there will be a supplement for IH and that there will probably be a few SCs (here's hoping for a techmarine dreadnought) in there, I think they shouldn't have put in the UM SCs as there will be an UM supplement at some stage as well.

One of the things I am very curious about is the wargear and relics part of the codex. All those things that grant inv. in the DA codex for example.

There are a few things that disappoints me a little: A very crowded Heavy Support Section, the centurions, the seemingly unremovable clothing on sternguards and that I know don't have to create my own Pedro Kantor from the FW praetor model.

I AM looking forward to the new possabilites with the new codex!

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Ultramarines and successors spend more time drilling the basics (they have a crazy daily schedule) while the others take time out of basic marksmanship to learn things like tank hunting, being sneaky, or replacing body parts with mechanical parts.

It's just odd that their tacticals forget half of that training once they become veterans.

Andy089 wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Am I the only one that think that all of the Chapter tactics are good?

Iron Hands Chapter Master 4 wounds with It will not die.

White Scars hit and run with bikes equal twin-linked bolters plus Hammer of Wraith Attacks.

Raven Guard stealth flyers, 3+ cover saves for infantry.

I ask again what is the problem?

I particularly like the Raven Guard CT.

I'm hoping Scouts still get the same bonus from cloaks so they can get a 2+ cover save in a ruin.

The White Scars one is good too.

The one I'm not too sure about is the one for my old Marine army... Iron Hands. Ok so it's a 6+ fnp, which tbh is good on Crons, so that's ok, but then IWND... I'm not seeing the good here as it's only on IC.

People have explained it to me, but I just don't see how good the IH one is.

Well considering you get a 6+ FnP on EVERY model it's actually alright, but I think a W4 character on a bike (thus T5) with artificer armor and a storm shield (2+/3++) and 6+ FnP and IWND is pretty resilient. TH or PF would suit thi guy well...(but I'll admit it's not very fluffy as iron hands are not known for their biking leaders)... The only thing I am not really a fan of is the +1 to blessing of the omnissiah. I would have preferred something like all sergeants having it or maybe all vehicles having the rhinos repair function. Let's see what the supplement will bring...

While I know that there will be a supplement for IH and that there will probably be a few SCs (here's hoping for a techmarine dreadnought) in there, I think they shouldn't have put in the UM SCs as there will be an UM supplement at some stage as well.

One of the things I am very curious about is the wargear and relics part of the codex. All those things that grant inv. in the DA codex for example.

There are a few things that disappoints me a little: A very crowded Heavy Support Section, the centurions, the seemingly unremovable clothing on sternguards and that I know don't have to create my own Pedro Kantor from the FW praetor model.

I AM looking forward to the new possabilites with the new codex!

Ok... the Chapter Master on a bike is a great idea.

I think it's the blessing bonus and the IWND on only IC. I would have gone with it on Centurions too.

I just wish we got a SC.

Puscifer wrote:

Andy089 wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Am I the only one that think that all of the Chapter tactics are good?

Iron Hands Chapter Master 4 wounds with It will not die.

White Scars hit and run with bikes equal twin-linked bolters plus Hammer of Wraith Attacks.

Raven Guard stealth flyers, 3+ cover saves for infantry.

I ask again what is the problem?

I particularly like the Raven Guard CT.

I'm hoping Scouts still get the same bonus from cloaks so they can get a 2+ cover save in a ruin.

The White Scars one is good too.

The one I'm not too sure about is the one for my old Marine army... Iron Hands. Ok so it's a 6+ fnp, which tbh is good on Crons, so that's ok, but then IWND... I'm not seeing the good here as it's only on IC.

People have explained it to me, but I just don't see how good the IH one is.

Well considering you get a 6+ FnP on EVERY model it's actually alright, but I think a W4 character on a bike (thus T5) with artificer armor and a storm shield (2+/3++) and 6+ FnP and IWND is pretty resilient. TH or PF would suit thi guy well...(but I'll admit it's not very fluffy as iron hands are not known for their biking leaders)... The only thing I am not really a fan of is the +1 to blessing of the omnissiah. I would have preferred something like all sergeants having it or maybe all vehicles having the rhinos repair function. Let's see what the supplement will bring...

While I know that there will be a supplement for IH and that there will probably be a few SCs (here's hoping for a techmarine dreadnought) in there, I think they shouldn't have put in the UM SCs as there will be an UM supplement at some stage as well.

One of the things I am very curious about is the wargear and relics part of the codex. All those things that grant inv. in the DA codex for example.

There are a few things that disappoints me a little: A very crowded Heavy Support Section, the centurions, the seemingly unremovable clothing on sternguards and that I know don't have to create my own Pedro Kantor from the FW praetor model.

I AM looking forward to the new possabilites with the new codex!

Ok... the Chapter Master on a bike is a great idea.

I think it's the blessing bonus and the IWND on only IC. I would have gone with it on Centurions too.

I just wish we got a SC.

I just want to clarify something, the IH trait gives IWND to vehicles too.

 Crimson wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Ultramarines and successors spend more time drilling the basics (they have a crazy daily schedule) while the others take time out of basic marksmanship to learn things like tank hunting, being sneaky, or replacing body parts with mechanical parts.

It's just odd that their tacticals forget half of that training once they become veterans.

They trade some of their range time for CC time, thus giving them that A2 value