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 davou wrote:

Dont be too excited unless there's a way to buy EW or +1T

That's exactly the thing, one of the relics is supposed to give EW. I think the rumors are that it's a shield, basically allowing you to make a Lysander clone, or even better, one in Artificer Armor who can sweep.

DogofWar1 wrote:

 davou wrote:

Dont be too excited unless there's a way to buy EW or +1T

That's exactly the thing, one of the relics is supposed to give EW. I think the rumors are that it's a shield, basically allowing you to make a Lysander clone, or even better, one in Artificer Armor who can sweep.

Which ever it is, its most likely going to cost 65pts, which is how much the most expensive relic is supposed to cost. I really hope if its the shield it still has the 3++

ClockworkZion wrote:

Black Templars: + Gains / - Losses
- No More Vows Pretty big. Even if AAC was the only one ever taken it was an integral part of the army that doesn't look like it's been adequately replaced.
- No More Marshalls or Castellans Upgraded to Captains/Chapter Masters, get free Iron Halo, better stats. Straight up buff.
- No More Terminator Command Squads Meh, was going to happen anyway.
- No More Master of Sanctity/Reclessiarchy Completely pointless. Both BA and DA have 3-wound Chaplains, but apparently we can't have good CC units now, can we?
- Sword Brethren are no longer units More or less moved to Vanguard Veterans, no big deal
- No More 2 Heavy Weapons in a 5 man Terminator Squad Was going to happen.
- No More special rule upgrades (Tank Hunter, ect) Was going to happen.
- No More Storm Shields on Assault Squads Was going to happen.
- No More extra power weapons in bike squad Was probably coming anyway, but still a little annoying.
- No More Fearless in Close Combat Guess Adamantium WIll compensates for this. If you live on a planet ruled by unicorns.
- No More Righteous Zeal One of the defining rules of the Black Templars Codex removed without any sort of compensation. Sure, we didn't like having to GtG to hold objectives, but that situation only popped up because GW decided to FAQ it up in the first place.
- Some Flavor I don't know about you, but I'd call losing more than half the Army USRs while gaining little a bit more than "some"...
- Most Heavy Weapons +5 more Meh, cheaper Marines.
- No More Power of the Machine Spirt upgrade Was going to happen.

+ Chapter Master and Captains More or less an upgrade to Castellans and Marshals. Fair enough.
+ Honor Guard Depending on options, YUMMY!
+ Regular Chaplains Not a gain so much as a nerf.
+ Master of the Forge Meh, we had 2-wound Techmarines with armoury access in Elites, now they're likely 1-wound with limited options. Our HQ slots are going to be crowded anyway.
+ Tactical Squads Templars had these already, not a gain.
+ Scout Squads Completely counter to the fluff, but I've always liked Scout Squads. Might have to model some Marines with Sniper Rifles (or get the FW squad).
+ Land Speeder Storm Yay?
+ Vanguard More or less updated Sword Brethren, not going to complain (yet! )
+ Sternguard Possibly one of the best MEQ units in the game IMO; huge utility.
+ Ironclad Dreadnoughts TANKRED SMASH!
+ Centurions (Assault and Devastator) No comment. Not because I don't like them, but because there's not much to say.
+ Scout Bikes See above.
+ Devastators Again, counter to fluff, but decent enough.
+ Whirlwinds Makes sense, never did get why they weren't in the 4th edition Codex when GW themselves had WWs painted up in Templar colours.
+ Hunter Whoop-dee-doo.
+ Stalker Doop-dee-whoo.
+ Land Raider Redeemer Always wanted one of these, not going to complain.
+ Crusader Squad keeps Land Raider Crusader as a Dedicated Transport Not a gain, just not a nerf.
+ Initiates are 5 points cheaper (counting Frag and Krak Grenade upgrades) Cheaper Marines somewhat mitigate the loss of CC prowess, but I'm not sure it'll be enough.
+ Sword Brother option in Crusader Squad Buff.
+ Keep Initiate Power Weapon/Fist option But more expensive, so technically a loss.
+ Neophyte leadership increased to Ld 8 They were already Ld8.
+ Neophyte Shotguns S4 Already fixed in FAQ.
+ Crusader Squad keeps Pistol and Chainsword option Not a gain, just not a nerf.
+ Crusader Squad Organization stays the same Not a nerf as opposed to a gain.
.

Replies in red.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Emperor's Champion:
- Uses HQ Slot
- 140 Points
- 2+/4++
- Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
- Combat Stances:
Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy
Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
- Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)

Now I'm confused, is the Black Sword still S6 or not? Did the say anything about his statline? Pretty pleased with getting the old "this is my Power Fist Sword" rule back though. Nothing about Warlord Traits on him I assume?

ClockworkZion wrote:

Grimaldus:
- 185 Points
- -1 BS
- +1 Wound
- -1 Attack
- It will Not Die (replaced "Only in Death Does Duty End"
- Zealot
- Relics of Hellsreach: Any Black Templar of a servitor in 6" gains a 6++ Invunerable save.
- Unmatched Zeal: Black Templar models within of 6" of Chaplain of Grimaldus have the Zealot special rule.

So, 10 points cheaper than before but worse than he already was? I mean, spreading Hatred to everyone within 6" is potentially very nice, but he's 185 points for a dude with 3+ armour and an AP4 weapon. He just doesn't add enough of anything to the army that a normal Chaplain, even in their new, neutered state, can't add better and cheaper (except the 6++).

ClockworkZion wrote:

Helbrect:
- 180 points
- +1 WS
- Rites of Valor - Gone
- Crusade of Wrath: Once per game, during the Assualt Phase, all models with the Black Templar Chapter Tactics gain Hatred and Fleet until the end of the phase.
- Sword of the High Marshalls is the same
- Legacy of Dorn (+D3 attack on the charge) same

Wait, so if the Sword of the High Marshals is the same, what's this "Legacy of Dorn" thing? He doesn't have that in the current book, and he already has +D3 attacks during the first turn of combat from his Sword. Also, no Warlord Trait? I'd have thought Furious Charge would fit him like a glove.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Black Templars: + Gains / - Losses
- No More Vows Pretty big. Even if AAC was the only one ever taken it was an integral part of the army that doesn't look like it's been adequately replaced.
- No More Marshalls or Castellans Upgraded to Captains/Chapter Masters, get free Iron Halo, better stats. Straight up buff.
- No More Terminator Command Squads Meh, was going to happen anyway.
- No More Master of Sanctity/Reclessiarchy Completely pointless. Both BA and DA have 3-wound Chaplains, but apparently we can't have good CC units now, can we?
- Sword Brethren are no longer units More or less moved to Vanguard Veterans, no big deal
- No More 2 Heavy Weapons in a 5 man Terminator Squad Was going to happen.
- No More special rule upgrades (Tank Hunter, ect) Was going to happen.
- No More Storm Shields on Assault Squads Was going to happen.
- No More extra power weapons in bike squad Was probably coming anyway, but still a little annoying.
- No More Fearless in Close Combat Guess Adamantium WIll compensates for this. If you live on a planet ruled by unicorns.
- No More Righteous Zeal One of the defining rules of the Black Templars Codex removed without any sort of compensation. Sure, we didn't like having to GtG to hold objectives, but that situation only popped up because GW decided to FAQ it up in the first place.
- Some Flavor I don't know about you, but I'd call losing more than half the Army USRs while gaining little a bit more than "some"...
- Most Heavy Weapons +5 more Meh, cheaper Marines.
- No More Power of the Machine Spirt upgrade Was going to happen.

+ Chapter Master and Captains More or less an upgrade to Castellans and Marshals. Fair enough.
+ Honor Guard Depending on options, YUMMY!
+ Regular Chaplains Not a gain so much as a nerf.
+ Master of the Forge Meh, we had 2-wound Techmarines with armoury access in Elites, now they're likely 1-wound with limited options. Our HQ slots are going to be crowded anyway.
+ Tactical Squads Templars had these already, not a gain.
+ Scout Squads Completely counter to the fluff, but I've always liked Scout Squads. Might have to model some Marines with Sniper Rifles (or get the FW squad).
+ Land Speeder Storm Yay?
+ Vanguard More or less updated Sword Brethren, not going to complain (yet! )
+ Sternguard Possibly one of the best MEQ units in the game IMO; huge utility.
+ Ironclad Dreadnoughts TANKRED SMASH!
+ Centurions (Assault and Devastator) No comment. Not because I don't like them, but because there's not much to say.
+ Scout Bikes See above.
+ Devastators Again, counter to fluff, but decent enough.
+ Whirlwinds Makes sense, never did get why they weren't in the 4th edition Codex when GW themselves had WWs painted up in Templar colours.
+ Hunter Whoop-dee-doo.
+ Stalker Doop-dee-whoo.
+ Land Raider Redeemer Always wanted one of these, not going to complain.
+ Crusader Squad keeps Land Raider Crusader as a Dedicated Transport Not a gain, just not a nerf.
+ Initiates are 5 points cheaper (counting Frag and Krak Grenade upgrades) Cheaper Marines somewhat mitigate the loss of CC prowess, but I'm not sure it'll be enough.
+ Sword Brother option in Crusader Squad Buff.
+ Keep Initiate Power Weapon/Fist option But more expensive, so technically a loss.
+ Neophyte leadership increased to Ld 8 They were already Ld8.
+ Neophyte Shotguns S4 Already fixed in FAQ.
+ Crusader Squad keeps Pistol and Chainsword option Not a gain, just not a nerf.
+ Crusader Squad Organization stays the same Not a nerf as opposed to a gain.
.

Replies in red.

Most are those are actually from 40k Radio's assessment. I added a couple extra losses in there (Machine Spirit for example).

The Neophyte one confused me. They said the leadership "went up by +1 to 8". Maybe they were confused?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Emperor's Champion:
- Uses HQ Slot
- 140 Points
- 2+/4++
- Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
- Combat Stances:
Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy
Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
- Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)

Now I'm confused, is the Black Sword still S6 or not? Did the say anything about his statline? Pretty pleased with getting the old "this is my Power Fist Sword" rule back though. Nothing about Warlord Traits on him I assume?

As I think I understand it he's S4 but he has a stance (kind of like the Brother Champion from Grey Knights) that makes him S6 at the cost of going at I1. Even at S4 though he's AP2 and causes instant death.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Grimaldus:
- 185 Points
- -1 BS
- +1 Wound
- -1 Attack
- It will Not Die (replaced "Only in Death Does Duty End"
- Zealot
- Relics of Hellsreach: Any Black Templar of a servitor in 6" gains a 6++ Invunerable save.
- Unmatched Zeal: Black Templar models within of 6" of Chaplain of Grimaldus have the Zealot special rule.

So, 10 points cheaper than before but worse than he already was? I mean, spreading Hatred to everyone within 6" is potentially very nice, but he's 185 points for a dude with 3+ armour and an AP4 weapon. He just doesn't add enough of anything to the army that a normal Chaplain, even in their new, neutered state, can't add better and cheaper (except the 6++).

Chaplains all over the Marine books have primarily been a character who gives a small buff at the loss of an HQ slot. I don't really see this as a surprise.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Helbrect:
- 180 points
- +1 WS
- Rites of Valor - Gone
- Crusade of Wrath: Once per game, during the Assualt Phase, all models with the Black Templar Chapter Tactics gain Hatred and Fleet until the end of the phase.
- Sword of the High Marshalls is the same
- Legacy of Dorn (+D3 attack on the charge) same

Wait, so if the Sword of the High Marshals is the same, what's this "Legacy of Dorn" thing? He doesn't have that in the current book, and he already has +D3 attacks during the first turn of combat from his Sword. Also, no Warlord Trait? I'd have thought Furious Charge would fit him like a glove.

I think that's the rule the Sword has that let it do that. I'm not sure. They weren't clear on that. I'm chalking that one up to their poor communication as with the Neophytes. It's easy to make notes that make sense to you when you have the book, the problem is their notes don't make as much sense to the rest of us.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Emperor's Champion:
- Uses HQ Slot
- 140 Points
- 2+/4++
- Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
- Combat Stances:
Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy
Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
- Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)

Now I'm confused, is the Black Sword still S6 or not? Did the say anything about his statline? Pretty pleased with getting the old "this is my Power Fist Sword" rule back though. Nothing about Warlord Traits on him I assume?

As I think I understand it he's S4 but he has a stance (kind of like the Brother Champion from Grey Knights) that makes him S6 at the cost of going at I1. Even at S4 though he's AP2 and causes instant death.

[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:

 davou wrote:

Dont be too excited unless there's a way to buy EW or +1T

That's exactly the thing, one of the relics is supposed to give EW. I think the rumors are that it's a shield, basically allowing you to make a Lysander clone, or even better, one in Artificer Armor who can sweep.

Which ever it is, its most likely going to cost 65pts, which is how much the most expensive relic is supposed to cost. I really hope if its the shield it still has the 3++

If it was an EW storm shield, 65 pts would make perfect sense, since SS is usually 30 points, and EW is 35ish. The one thing is that if you upgrade an Iron Halo, 30 pts to go from 4++ to 3++ is a bit steep, but getting EW on a 4W chapter master, especially if you give him artificer armor, is Nasty awesome.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Emperor's Champion:
- Uses HQ Slot
- 140 Points
- 2+/4++
- Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
- Combat Stances:
Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy
Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
- Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)

Now I'm confused, is the Black Sword still S6 or not? Did the say anything about his statline? Pretty pleased with getting the old "this is my Power Fist Sword" rule back though. Nothing about Warlord Traits on him I assume?

As I think I understand it he's S4 but he has a stance (kind of like the Brother Champion from Grey Knights) that makes him S6 at the cost of going at I1. Even at S4 though he's AP2 and causes instant death.

[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

Because he also has rending and re-rolls hits in challenges. With less Eternal Warrior running around that means he only needs a 6 to wound regardless of toughness at AP2 and force them to pass an invulnerable save or die. That's not bad. 3 attacks normally like that, 4 on the turn he charges....he'll be good for somethings. I wouldn't warlord hunt with him, but he's got his uses.

Something that doesn't sit well with me...

They say the Salamanders don't really have any Successors, so they have a lot more Marines in their Chapter.

Salamanders have always been a small Chapter, with around 700 marines, with only one alleged successor Chapter - The Black Dragons.

Have they retconned the fluff?

On another topic...

The White Scars, Iron Hands and Raven Guard CTs are looking to be quite good. I was at first undecided on the IH, but it does have some merits, especially for the Chapter Master.

For the Raven Guard, Scouts racing around in LSS to get into cover and then have that lovely 2+ Cover Save. Only downside is that Tau would mince the army in quick time.

White Scars with Khan just look uber powerful. Great shooting, fair CC, very very fast.

Is there any word on the Blood Ravens and if GW have decided to name their Primarch or where they originate from genetically?

Puscifer wrote:
Something that doesn't sit well with me...

They say the Salamanders don't really have any Successors, so they have a lot more Marines in their Chapter.

Salamanders have always been a small Chapter, with around 700 marines, with only one alleged successor Chapter - The Black Dragons.

Have they retconned the fluff?

From what they said, Black Dragons aren't successors to the Salamanders now. Or perhaps not officially.

I don't have insight into the full fluff, just the snippets they said. One comment was that the Salamanders had more Devastators that normal, but that's not enough to really form a conclusion around.

Puscifer wrote:
On another topic...

The White Scars, Iron Hands and Raven Guard CTs are looking to be quite good. I was at first undecided on the IH, but it does have some merits, especially for the Chapter Master.

For the Raven Guard, Scouts racing around in LSS to get into cover and then have that lovely 2+ Cover Save. Only downside is that Tau would mince the army in quick time.

White Scars with Khan just look uber powerful. Great shooting, fair CC, very very fast.

Is there any word on the Blood Ravens and if GW have decided to name their Primarch or where they originate from genetically?

No word was mentioned about that.

Thanks Zion.

Yeah, that's a complete turnaround on the Salamanders regarding fluff. Not a real surprise though.

As for Blood Ravens, they really are an anomaly. The fluff suggests (sparingly) Thousand Sons, but their tactics strongly suggest Raven Guard.

IMO - they've got to be Cursed Founding.

They weren't around before it and they coincidentally appeared around the same time.

Yeah, I think Raven Guard rules for them.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Emperor's Champion:
- Uses HQ Slot
- 140 Points
- 2+/4++
- Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
- Combat Stances:
Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy
Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
- Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)

Now I'm confused, is the Black Sword still S6 or not? Did the say anything about his statline? Pretty pleased with getting the old "this is my Power Fist Sword" rule back though. Nothing about Warlord Traits on him I assume?

As I think I understand it he's S4 but he has a stance (kind of like the Brother Champion from Grey Knights) that makes him S6 at the cost of going at I1. Even at S4 though he's AP2 and causes instant death.

[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

AP2 is very good however, he should be able to take most humanoid opponents and then if they are big beasties go 2HD for STR 6 (which instant deaths my St Celestine and my Dark Eldar)

Llyeth and most DE are S3 as I recall , Incubi get up to S4 and they are not bad in hand to hand............

 Mr Morden wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Emperor's Champion:
- Uses HQ Slot
- 140 Points
- 2+/4++
- Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
- Combat Stances:
Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy
Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
- Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)

Now I'm confused, is the Black Sword still S6 or not? Did the say anything about his statline? Pretty pleased with getting the old "this is my Power Fist Sword" rule back though. Nothing about Warlord Traits on him I assume?

As I think I understand it he's S4 but he has a stance (kind of like the Brother Champion from Grey Knights) that makes him S6 at the cost of going at I1. Even at S4 though he's AP2 and causes instant death.

[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

AP2 is very good however, he should be able to take most humanoid opponents and then if they are big beasties go 2HD for STR 6 (which instant deaths my St Celestine and my Dark Eldar)

Llyeth and most DE are S3 as I recall , Incubi get up to S4 and they are not bad in hand to hand............

Lelith has 1410725412025^27 attacks and Incubi are, countrary to your claim, rather shoddy in CC. The Emperor's Champion currently has S6 on his sword but not AP2, now we get the AP2 we've been wanting but get the Strength nerfed instead. There are no buffs to CC in the Codex that doesn't seem to come with an equal nerf, which is fine if you're trying to contain Power Creep, but it's not fine if you're trying to update a Codex from two editions ago that needed buffs to be competetive.

I've not had a problem with Incubi in combat thus far - S4 and AP2 kills most opponents - but I may be wrong - I do find Wyches useless but not Incubi.

Most opponents (who often beat me) want to kill them before they get into combat as they slaughter Marines and usually come off best against anything but Storm Sheild Terminators?

Llyeth is wonderful for getting lots of attacks but she's only S3 - she is as good as AP2 (well better), I have found however that with only T3 and a 4++ save she dies very quickly.

What sort of opponents (save for Storm Shield Terms) do you think will be the biggest problem for the EC? He should slaughter rank and file - I guess it might be important what his I is as to how well he can fight CC elites but he has got AS 2+ / 4+ which is nice?

I find Armour 2+ very annoying with St Celestine and other Power Sword wielding characters

Looks like I will be sticking to a generic warlord for my Black Templars. The SCs for them are not competitive seeming in 6th. I will take the Emperor's Champion (taking my 2nd HQ slot now) not because he is good, but because I have run a Champion as fluff for years. Really bothers me that he takes a slot and is NOT required now. He was the biggest Fluff piece on the table. EVERY BT army had him, they HAD to have him. Made us unique.

Anyways, from all I have read, my tactics are REALLY going to have to change. I know some people were complaining about Assault Marines being useless...but my old BT assault marines were GREAT. Each marine had melta bombs...paired with a jump chaplain, think about each marine making 1 melta bomb attack...and rerolling the miss from the chappie. That was an UBER squad...better when I strapped on some storm shields on ALL of them for the luls.

To be honest, Raven Guard are a black painted army too...I will probably just run my templars as raven guards...which makes me a sad crusader.

Edit: Just thought of a name for them...Temple Crows.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I've not had a problem with Incubi in combat thus far - S4 and AP2 kills most opponents - but I may be wrong - I do find Wyches useless but not Incubi.

Most opponents (who often beat me) want to kill them before they get into combat as they slaughter Marines and usually come off best against anything but Storm Sheild Terminators?

Llyeth is wonderful for getting lots of attacks but she's only S3 - she is as good as AP2 (well better), I have found however that with only T3 and a 4++ save she dies very quickly.

What sort of opponents (save for Storm Shield Terms) do you think will be the biggest problem for the EC? He should slaughter rank and file - I guess it might be important what his I is as to how well he can fight CC elites but he has got AS 2+ / 4+ which is nice?

I find Armour 2+ very annoying with St Celestine and other Power Sword wielding characters

He's not going to slaughter rank and file, he'll be worse at it than he is now unless said rank and file are Terminators or similar 2+ armour things. He's still going to struggle against enemy CC Characters, the one thing he's supposed to be good against fluff-wise.

I suppose he's not completely worthless though, if he gets the charge in and the enemy accepts his Challenge (I've no clue why they would, though...) he's got a 50/50 chance of inflicting Instant Death if he's hitting on 4+ with rerolls (4 attacks, 3 hits, 0.5 wound rolls are 6s), but if he doesn't ID (or can't ID) then he's much worse than before. It does turn him into a semi-decent Monster Hunter I suppose.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
And wow, I just realized something: The new THs on the Vanguard, coupled with these:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440277a&prodId=prod1710026a
means I can finally have a model in Power/Artificer Armour with dual Thunder Hammers

Whoa. Left-handed thunder hammers? I was just thinking I'd need one. Alas, I don't really need 5, though. I wonder if those shields are meant to be attached to a bolter grip arm?

DogofWar1 wrote:

If it was an EW storm shield, 65 pts would make perfect sense, since SS is usually 30 points, and EW is 35ish. The one thing is that if you upgrade an Iron Halo, 30 pts to go from 4++ to 3++ is a bit steep, but getting EW on a 4W chapter master, especially if you give him artificer armor, is Nasty awesome.

SS 30 points? No, it's 15. Still, I'd gladly pay 65 for EW+SS.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Lelith has 1410725412025^27 attacks and Incubi are, countrary to your claim, rather shoddy in CC. The Emperor's Champion currently has S6 on his sword but not AP2, now we get the AP2 we've been wanting but get the Strength nerfed instead. There are no buffs to CC in the Codex that doesn't seem to come with an equal nerf, which is fine if you're trying to contain Power Creep, but it's not fine if you're trying to update a Codex from two editions ago that needed buffs to be competetive.

Incubi shoddy? Ever actually ended up in close combat with them? For the record, Incubi vs Hammernators is a wash when both units cost the same and assuming no charge bonuses either way. So as long as you get them to combat, the incubi are pretty goddamn nasty. I've lost enough crusaders and yes, even hammernators to them to know, as well as seen a Deathwing army wiped off the table by them (prior to the new DA codex, not that it'd make much difference). Though of course the stats speak for themselves as it is. 3+, S4, AP2, A2, I5 for 22 points? Nuts. And here we are, paying 140 points for EC with A2/3 I5 S4 AP2. Derp. Dunno why GW is so allergic to giving at least one proper at-initiative AP2 weapon to SM characters, yet they go and introduce S9 AP2 I4 attacks via Centurions. It's also silly that the 2H mode is unwieldy, it makes no kind of sense whatsoever. Sword that's slower to swing with two hands than one, and then ends up worse than a power fist? Losing the extra attack from pistol would've been enough of a drawback for the +2S. As it is it feels hard to justify the EC from an efficiency point of view, I'd rather take the W4 A4 power fist EW beatstick chapter master accompanied by a chaplain (in larger games probably Grimaldus). Can't even take all three anymore with the EC using up a slot. It's extra sad for me because I just recently got the limited edition EC which is a frickin' amazing model. Might have to use it as Honour Guard Chapter Champion instead, I guess...

I lost my whole Deathwing Army to two Incubi Squads. Only unit I had left was a squad of Hammernators, which killed one squad, but died thanks to a mass of fire from lots of Warrior Squads.

I only ever face DE on few occasions, but it is always a losing game for me.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

By having a Master-Crafted sword that hits at initiative, is AP2 and causes ID on 6's?

I actually like that idea tvih. I think I will pick up a box of the old Sword Brethren, do them up as a 5 man Honor Guard, slap my EC in there as the chapter champion (he will probably be more useful there anways)

If I run the honor guard, one of them can get a banner right? That gives me an excuse to actually buy and paint up a pretty standard.

 Isean wrote:
I actually like that idea tvih. I think I will pick up a box of the old Sword Brethren, do them up as a 5 man Honor Guard, slap my EC in there as the chapter champion (he will probably be more useful there anways)

If I run the honor guard, one of them can get a banner right? That gives me an excuse to actually buy and paint up a pretty standard.

That just sounds like a load of awesome when it comes to modelling them. That's going to look amazing on the board.

Kangodo wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

By having a Master-Crafted sword that hits at initiative, is AP2 and causes ID on 6's?

One, the Master-Crafted is USELESS...he rerolls hits already with the chapter tactic. Two its only initiative when you fight at S4...which is WORSE than he was, because it used to be S6 at I5. Three, when he fights at initiative 1 to get the S6, he not only loses an attack now...he will most likely already be dead by whatever he is challenging.

Nearly every MC and SC he "should" be challenging will wipe the floor with him before he even hits if he tries to fight at I1. The rending CT is moot with him with the AP2. ID is nice, but only if he lives to hit, then succeeds to wound and hopefully roll a 6. Oh, also everything I want to instant kill with him is going to have an invul making it even less likely.

 tvih wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:

If it was an EW storm shield, 65 pts would make perfect sense, since SS is usually 30 points, and EW is 35ish. The one thing is that if you upgrade an Iron Halo, 30 pts to go from 4++ to 3++ is a bit steep, but getting EW on a 4W chapter master, especially if you give him artificer armor, is Nasty awesome.

SS 30 points? No, it's 15. Still, I'd gladly pay 65 for EW+SS.

30 pts on non-captain characters who don't start with a 4++, which is why I said it'd be a bit steep for captains and chapter masters, who do start with that 4++.

But yeah, 65 pts for EW and 3++ is sweet, especially if artificer armor is still relatively cheap.

If you can take that Relic on a bike too...GG for anything you can challenge on the enemy team.

Chapter Master + Bike (T5, fast) + Artificer armor (2+) + Relic (3++, EW) + Powerfist = Kills EVERYTHING.

Make him Iron Hands too, just so we can have some 6+ FNP and IWND.

Probably would come in around 250 points, but a 2+/3++ with 6+ FNP, IWND, EW, T5, Fast, S8, A4, W4 model? Worth every point and then some.

Puscifer wrote:

 Isean wrote:
I actually like that idea tvih. I think I will pick up a box of the old Sword Brethren, do them up as a 5 man Honor Guard, slap my EC in there as the chapter champion (he will probably be more useful there anways)

If I run the honor guard, one of them can get a banner right? That gives me an excuse to actually buy and paint up a pretty standard.

That just sounds like a load of awesome when it comes to modelling them. That's going to look amazing on the board.

Yup...that fact alone has me kind of pumped about the BTs being in the codex...I can get some cool formations and more units are open to me. Black Templars ALWAYS look good on the board. Thankfully I am a hobby lover before a power gamer (otherwise I would not have chosen BT years ago.)

Now that the Chapter Tactics got clarified, this book sounds really promising. Traits seem to be well balanced enough that there's no obvious no-rained choice, which is excellent.

 Isean wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

By having a Master-Crafted sword that hits at initiative, is AP2 and causes ID on 6's?

One, the Master-Crafted is USELESS...he rerolls hits already with the chapter tactic. Two its only initiative when you fight at S4...which is WORSE than he was, because it used to be S6 at I5. Three, when he fights at initiative 1 to get the S6, he not only loses an attack now...he will most likely already be dead by whatever he is challenging.

Nearly every MC and SC he "should" be challenging will wipe the floor with him before he even hits if he tries to fight at I1. The rending CT is moot with him with the AP2. ID is nice, but only if he lives to hit, then succeeds to wound and hopefully roll a 6. Oh, also everything I want to instant kill with him is going to have an invul making it even less likely.

I couldn't say if he was worth the points - he can both dish and out and take it from my experience with AP2 and Armour 2 characters. Also not sure about the SC's wiping the floor before he hits - many of the fast ones have difficulty with Armour 2+, Dark Eldar Archons do unless they have a Power Axe and so are not faster, I think Mephiston is only AP3? Celestine is AP3, Vulkan is AP3 (or was?), Llyeth ignores his armour but only wounds on a 5+. In return he ignores their non ++ saves, which is insta kill on some of them or on a 6+ if not normally? Which SCs am I missing that are faster then I5? Is the Catachan Guard Colonel who ignores armour faster?

But yeah the MCs should kill him unless he rolls really well on ++ saves, he probably should have Eternal Warrior to match the fluff but then they do get killed - look at the one in Helsreach - overwhelmed by orks......

Incubi will kill him

 Crimson wrote:
Now that the Chapter Tactics got clarified, this book sounds really promising. Traits seem to be well balanced enough that there's no obvious no-rained choice, which is excellent.

Agreed that the book sounds promising, but the fact that the prices of units is creeping up money wise, it becomes less promising.

Mr Morden, Mephiston is AP3.
All of my BA-characters are either AP3 or Unwieldy, even if I pay 275 points for them.

So yeah, no wonder I am pissed when I hear people complaining about AP2 hits at I5 because "they are only at S4 for a 140pnt model".

 Isean wrote:
One, the Master-Crafted is USELESS...he rerolls hits already with the chapter tactic. Two its only initiative when you fight at S4...which is WORSE than he was, because it used to be S6 at I5. Three, when he fights at initiative 1 to get the S6, he not only loses an attack now...he will most likely already be dead by whatever he is challenging.

Nearly every MC and SC he "should" be challenging will wipe the floor with him before he even hits if he tries to fight at I1. The rending CT is moot with him with the AP2. ID is nice, but only if he lives to hit, then succeeds to wound and hopefully roll a 6. Oh, also everything I want to instant kill with him is going to have an invul making it even less likely.

1. Hmm, that is weird. Why would they make it MC then?
2. It is actually better since it used to be AP3 which means I roll 3 2+ and continue to kill the Champion.
With WS6, I5, and 4 attacks on S4, AP2 you will probably be better at challenges than before.
3. With a 2+ he will be dead?

Siigh.. Black Templars, the only chapter in the Imperium that will complain for hitting on initiative with AP2.
Because how many characters can do that?

Kangodo wrote:
Mr Morden, Mephiston is AP3.
All of my BA-characters are either AP3 or Unwieldy, even if I pay 275 points for them.
So yeah, no wonder I am pissed when I hear people complaining about AP2 hits at I5 because "they are only at S4 for a 140pnt model".

Thats kinda what I thought - The EC should have a good or better chance against most ICs?

 Mr Morden wrote:
Thats kinda what I thought - The EC should have a good or better chance against most ICs?

I'm sure of it. Most SC have Sv2+ or aren't worth killing anyway.
But I'll be a nice guy: Every time he plays against me, he can take his +2 Strength and AP3 Sword.
I'll be less nice when I laugh at him every time I take my Save and kick the EC's ass.

Kangodo wrote:

Siigh.. Black Templars, the only chapter in the Imperium that will complain for hitting on initiative with AP2.
Because how many characters can do that?

Everyone in the Chaos Daemons codex for example. And I dunno if you will ever meet a cc character who isn't from that codex... And between Daemon Princes, Bloodthirsters and Khorne Heralds, the EC has a snowball's chance in hell. Yeah, maybe he can beat Captains, Tau Commanders and their ilk, but they are low-league players so no glory in doing that.