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I'm not a Lizards player, but I was surprised there wasn't already a thread like this so I thought I'd start some discussion up. I'm certainly keen to get a few ideas, considering I play them a lot.

I've read the Book, and I've picked a few crucial points up that I view as important.

- Slann no longer have free dice and no Cupped Hands and, iirc, Slanns can no longer cast MM and DD spells from combat. As an opponent of Lizardmen, this makes me very happy.
- Blowpipes no longer have Quick to Fire. Again, this makes me rather happy as Skins were a pain.
- Saurus Oldbloods are nasty. I'm not sure if they were before, but they look really mean. A tooled up one with the Stegadon Helm, full mundane, the ASF Sword and the 5++ Talisman and you're looking at a nasty character indeed.
- Ripperdactyls look awesome, both in terms of the models and in-game. They're pretty cheap for flying models that churn out a lot of attacks at decent strength with AP and Killing Blow. Add in TicTacToe on Zwup (awesome names, btw, and yes, I know it's not spelt that way) and you can give them Ambushers and make enemy shooting -1 to hit.
- Cold Ones have 2 Attacks. This means Dark Elf Cold Ones will likely have 2 attacks when they get updated
- Primal Fury is cool.

So, yeah, looks like another good release. Plenty of strong units and they seem to have cut down some of the OP-ness. It'll be good to see how this turns out.

So, have at it, Dakka!

At first sight: very good book. Ridiculously overpowered Slann nerfed, new, seemingly good models. On the downside, the army still is very bland and I expect similar lists as before (lots of Saurus + Slann).

Good job on that book however.

Surprising that every army book except Matt Ward's is so well done. Really. Surprising.

Don't forget that Matt Ward did the high elves which is a solid book except for one item!

My question:

Do Skink chiefs on rippers generate their own toad? I have an idea of doing 3x6 Ripper units plus 3-4 Skink chiefs on rippers for 6-7 toaded units.

thelordcal wrote:
Don't forget that Matt Ward did the high elves which is a solid book except for one item!

My question:

Do Skink chiefs on rippers generate their own toad? I have an idea of doing 3x6 Ripper units plus 3-4 Skink chiefs on rippers for 6-7 toaded units.

Yeah, the High Elves book is solid, save for the Banner of the World Dragon and even that isn't bad unless you're against Daemons. However, I refuse to have yet another "discussion" about that thing.

And I don't think Skink Cheifs get an extra toad. The Toad Rage rule (and that is such an awesome name for a rule - with that and TiqTak'To, you can tell they had great fun inventing names with this book) is a Ripperdactyl RIDER rule, as opposed to a Ripperdactyl rule.

But yeah, I love the Ripperdactyls. I'm actually tempted to start a small Lizards army with a unit of 5 Rippers and TiqTak'To at its core.

The only thing I find annoying is the Predatory Fighter Rule. Unable to restrain unless a SKINK character is nearby? That doesn't make sense. Not even a Slann can restrain them?

Makes a Saurus heavy list very susceptible to over extension.

Salamanders are down in capability, but up in points. Razordons seem to have gotten cheaper and worth a bit less, would have like to see some better range on them.

Engine of the Gods Warding ability is nice.

But against armies full of cannons, we don't have enough ward saves, and still have no ranged combat worth anything.

But hey! Temple Guard don't HAVE to join a Slann!

But you can now kill my kroxigors in skink units before you kill all the skinks. Sad.

Book looks fun, reasonably decent. I find it odd that the EotG cannot boost their High Magic Lore. Weird.

Pesonally I don't see lizards having a problem with cannons, a list could easily bring two monsters for every cannon in an opponents army.

Ripperdactyles are great... until they get hit. T3, 4+ save, 2w means they die to a harsh glare. That said against a toad'd unit they get 2+d3+1 attacks (assuming they still have frenzy).

Prettysure Tiktaq'to gives a terradon unit ambushers, but not ripperdactyls.

Slann CAN cast MM and DD out of combat, they just need a skink priest to channel it through. Can also swap spells with any friendly wizard.

The book seems to have a lot of synergy. Some stuff is pretty good on its own but with a specific model near by, the unit becomes very good. Saurus blocks with a Troglodon for the roar. Saurus blocks following jungle swarms around for poison attacks. Bastiladon with ark pumping out more snakes to keep those jungle swarms going.

I'm interested in the Rippers but I'll hold off buying them until I've read some battle reports about them.

Also, Gor-Rok is a monster!! I can see him popping up a lot.

I think the most drastic change in this book is the Lores of Magic that the Slann and Skink priests have acces to. High Magic and Lore of Beasts for skinks is very good i think, and gives nice synergy.

The only thing I find annoying is the Predatory Fighter Rule. Unable to restrain unless a SKINK character is nearby? That doesn't make sense. Not even a Slann can restrain them?

They really went out of their way to make Slann sleepy toads. I think they did this so Saurus and Skinks aren't just errand boys for Slann. The point out that Slann only give really high level, overarching advice. Slann aren't going to be bothered with telling a specific unit not to keep running. It's the Skinks who do the lower level administration and left to their own devices, Saurus are really brutal. If they're told to kill they will.

Slann were good changes I think. Pretty much no one can generate zillions of free dice (cept maybe TK). Though slann can eat a dispel die and and puke it up as power. Or triple channel. And if they go Ethereal they are also unstable and can't join units.

Saurus are even better. Free spears if you want.

Skinks can use Beast lore. That's pretty huge.

Saurus leaders are cheap. As I was saying elsewhere you can get a piranha blade and a carnisaur and have like 9 attacks that do D3 wounds.

The Lord Special Characters are really good. Mazdamnundi is insanely expensive. I don't think he's worth it. Kroak is pretty decent now and it's funny he has rules specifically designed to stop cheese--you take his one spell, you instantly forget it and he relearns it, nyah nyah. Only 400 pts now and he can cast his spell through a priest and he shrugs off miscasts for the most part.

Bastiladons aren't bad for their cost. Only 150 and 4/5/4 stat monster with a 2+ save and some kind of weapon. I like the beam of chotec a lot more in theory/looks but it is a bound spell and magic missile, so you can't use in combat. The ark of sotek is actually much better, but it just looks stupid. You just walk up and use it in close combat.

Salamanders got a nerf and razordons are a bit better I think. Not sure but I think razordons might be best.

Steggadons, I don't like that burning alignment is a bound spell.

Terradons are still lame IMHO. You can use rocks once per game? I'm surprised that's still like that.

Ripperdactyl's are a bit odd. They aren't your normal elite MC. Or even close. But they can do a lot of dmg with those blot toads. If your enemy is running a star or two, especially with elites, having ~5 killing attacks come at you per 40pts and can reroll failed to hits is a good deal.

A lot of stuff, mostly skinks, had their LD reduced. I think this helps you fight them with spells/ranged forcing panic.

Kroxigor didn't change a lot. +1S and a little less cost. Some people had mentioned the S when debating and I said it was too much but they did it. So with GW they are Carnisaur Strength. I woulda liked to see cheaper. I think they are really good to hold down Skink units who have suck LD.

Cold ones seem solid now. You're basically paying +8 for nearly 2 warriors. But you also get +2 armor, +3 movement, and the benefits of cavalry (swiftstride). Downside is it's only 1W and Stupid, but you won't fail often. Over the old rules it's +1A for -5pts, so a good deal better.

Magic items are good. Blade of realities and piranha blade are scary. I like sacred helm. The egg is cool.


FLUFF:
-Amazon references removed.
-Tehenhauin definitive reference to Sotek being a real god removed.
-Slann super sleepy.
-Old Ones used to land space ships in Lizard cities.
-The timeline has a long area before the cataclysm where Lizardmen and Old Ones were doing stuff. They also mention there were whole other civilizations (that they killed).
-They definitively say halfings and ogres were made "in haste" by the Old Ones.
-They say that only the HE have some creator myths about the Old Ones. Which makes me wonder how much the HE deities overlap with Old Ones.
-Slann taught HE magic.
-Slann "nurtured" (used a few times) the other races until Chaos came.
-They still have Thunder Lizards. To give you an idea of their size, they stick their heads into the clouds to suck up lightning, or something. The old book said they were so big they could trample an entire Lizardman city.
-They still have those flying lizard wizard things.
-Skinks are more independent from Slann. They're the ones who brought in superstition (is Sotek really an Old One/God?) and stuff like sacrifices. Slann don't approve but they're too busy sleeping and sh*t needs to get done.

-Slaan no long have to join temple guard. They can join/leave units as they please.
-Razordons and Salamanders don't have a max unit size. You can take ~6 razordons and throw out ~30 S4 shots, 12 S5 attacks, 24 S3 attacks and then stomp. High magic boosting the BS of a big razor unit would really pay off.
-Ripperdactyles are ideal warmachine hunters. Frenzy means they won't run when the unit gets shot up.
-Slaan can get 3 channels at a 5+, re-roll a failed dispel attempt each turn, and modify miscasts.
-Tetto'Eko is a buff machine! EVERY friendly magic phase a;; friendly wizards re-roll 1's to cast (2+) or re-roll 6's (on a 1). He also gives D3 units vanguard.
-Engine of the gods can do all 3 buffs every turn. The 6+ ward is now against all effects (instead of just shooting from beyond 12"). The reduced magic lore is always at the start of your magic phase. The burning alignment doesn't ignore armor, and is now a bound spell, but has twice the area of effect (4D6").
-Bastiladons get 1 S10 attack, 2 S4 attacks and 3-4 S3 attacks. With only D6 S4 thunder stomp, and no stubborn, this guy's losing combat if isolated.
-Saurus, Saurus characters, Kroxigor and TEMPLE GUARD all have Predatory Hunter. Yeah, that's right, the temple guard got it too. Now that we can get a frenzy banner, an offensive TG death star is very viable. Block of 30 dishes out 50 attacks, getting ~9 bonus attacks.
-Skink/Krox units can put krox in the 3rd rank too, if you make the unit too narrow for them all to fit in the 2nd rank.

I had a small game with Lizards on saturday.
Myself and a friend took 1500pts of lizards each, against 1000 of Dwarfs, 1000 of Chaos Dwarfs, 1000 Chaos.

I had:

- Scar Veteran on Carnosaur with the stegadon helm spear, shield, light armour, and swiftstride

- 18 Saraus with Spear and Full command
- 18 Saraus with Spear and Full command
- 11 Skink skirmishers with javelin shield
- 11 Skink skirmishers with blowpipes

- Bastiladon with Laser beam thing
- 3 Ripperdactyls - I put the blot toads into the unit of 14 Fireglaive wielding chaos dwarfs.

The other lizards army had a horde of saraus, another unit of 20, 20 temple guard with an oldblood with the blad of realities and 8 (I think) Cold One Cavalry.

We played the sacrifice scenario from the lustria book - and left the oldblood and temple guard there to sacrifice the dwarven maiden on turn 4 for an extra 300VPs

Without giving a full battle report, I'll just note down some of the more interesting points:

- Scar Veteran on a carnosaur is great fun! (I always used to take the Old Blood on one when I could, but this guy will definitely be included). He charged a unit of 6 K'Dai (the monstrous infantry versions) and eventually killed them, with the carnosaur remaining on 1 wound. he then charged 3 Dragon ogres and munched on them (actually he munched on the champion in a challenge and the other 2 ran) He then charge the 15 chaos warriors, munching the champion then the wizard in a challenge.

- Bastiladon: didn't really do much. As our only source of magic, the beam only worked when I irresistably cast it. the initiative buff didn't really help much, but I wasn't using it for that, so never optimised it. In the last turn I charged it into the Chaos Dwarf wizard - we both fluffed all of our attacks, then I remembered thunderstomp, and caused 3 unsaved wounds.

- Ripperdactyls: Were ok. failed a charge on the fireglaives but lost one to stand and shoot, the remaining 2 finally managed to charge but I rolled a 1 for the D3 attacks, and maybe killed 2 dwarfs. they then butchered the unit with return attacks. But they kept the fireglaives busy the whole game which was a win.

- Saraus: the same workhorse they always were, PF is handy for a few extra attacks. one unit took on a dwarf warriors with Lord block and managed to contain it, then break and catch it. The other had terrible game, got charged by GW dwarves, and of my 30odd attacks only inflicted 1 wound... before fleeing off the table.

- Skinks: the blowpipers accounted for the organ gun and the cannon, while the javelins were an annoyance for the chaos chariot and knights

- Cold One cavalry: got shot up a bit by cannon and organ gun. then against my better judgement they charged unsupported into the dwarfs with a lord, survived a turn then got flank charge by the GW dwarfs.

Overall, I didn't find them too much different from the last book. They play the same.
I think I like the bastiladon (the ark one would be really handy with a Tehenhauin swarm mob - that gains unbreakable and doesn't get squished!!!!)
the Ripperdactyls would be better as a bigger unit I think - and buffed by Wyssans.
Carnosaur was just as good as always - the swiftstride upgrade is great!
Blade of realities looks fun - but probably more useful in larger games.

I rarely play with a slaan, but its good to see it got the toning down it required.
Sad for the loss of the Stegadon warspear, but the D3 impact hits upgrade is just as good

Maybe I'm just missing something from the last book and this one, but why is Chakax so expensive?

The only thing I see to make him expensive is the ability to make the enemy ASL. But, since Chakax ALSO Strikes Last, and has a terrible Initiative, this ability has no benefit at all. Unless I'm missing something.

The model is awesome, adn I want an excuse to use him, but I can't stand a 270 point character that is going to get chopped down in every challenge he is in.

Is Chakax the Eternity Warden in the book still and is he actually useful now for something besides a point sink?

Chakax is cheaper by 65 points so he is easier to take. He lost the ability to make opponent's weapon mundane but has retained most of his other abilities.

In a challenge, Chakax makes his opponents ASL too so they will swing at the same time but Chakax also gets to reroll all failed hits in a challenge too. With a 4+/5++ and T5 he isn't always going to die in a challenge but he isn't a big winner without some additional buffs.

If you want a good figher, take Gor-Rok. He's tougher, cheaper, and can put out a lot of damage.

But the model for Chakax is the best in the LM lineup annd is my entire reason for using him lol.Kinda lame on the mundane part and himself still striking last :(

dull dull dull
none of the new stuff is that interesting, going to see very little change from last edition lists.
remember ripper dayctels are frenzied with so so leadership, ultimate glasshammer, give me more sallies or kroxigor.
skrox units lost all the useful things and gained little.
I like the option for beast lore, highmagic has lots of spells you can cast through skink priest and swarms in pairs set between combat units could prove interesting.
Kroak is viable but boring.

 The Shadow wrote:

- Blowpipes no longer have Quick to Fire. Again, this makes me rather happy as Skins were a pain.

Iirc blowpipes never HAD Quick to Fire. Javelins did. And Javelins still do so no real change there. But here's my impressions and opinions. Time to Opine as it were.

Also, Slann not being able to cast in combat? That's where Arcane Vassal comes in - being able to cast MM and DD spells through skink priests and troglodons even while in combat!

- Skinks have Scaly Skin! The best rule for me. Every single skink unit got that bit better as a result and it makes cohorts a wee bit more viable to approach. Never underestimate the power of a 6+ save people. Especially now that Priests have it.
- Kroxigor are S5 again. Another happy moment. I never understood why they dropped to S4 and am so much happier to have it back to what it was.
- Lore of Beasts on Skinks - well, since Lizardmen have always been the monster army...what with more monsters, war beasts, cavalry, monstrous cavalry and swarms than any other army going and just got even more...this makes perfect sense.
-High Magic frogs - I can see the Lore attribute being particularly useful as well. A Slann with Loremaster High Magic will be able to take the one or two spells that will inevitably be useless against whatever he's facing, blow those off quickly and swap them for something more useful from the book lores - I still highly recommend lore of life. Toughness buffs, regeneration and free wound healing in a monster army is scarily potent. But some High spells are just too good to give up for free. Hand of Glory? Keeping this forever. Soul Quench? Ridiculous with Arcane Vassal.
-Arcane Vassal - This is going to be nasty. Lord Kroak in particular with this. The plan is simple. Get Skink priests into different areas of the enemy line. Channel as many dice as you can. Have Lord Kroak cast Deliverance several times through each Skink. AoE spellbombs galore.
-Magic Item destruction. Hoo boy, do Lizards have it. High magic comes with it, Mazdamundi has it and Chakax has it. Chakax has it on a terrifying level. If he hits something in a challenge he breaks something on a 5+. And as he rerolls to hit...and the current meta seems to be to minimal equip your characters he's going to ruin someone's day when he beats them in the face with a great weapon and breaks their ward save, stopping them from saving...
-MONSTERS! I love this. Stegadons became scary. How does Multiple Wound (D3) impact hits sound? How about swiftstride carnosaurs? Or Carnosaurs with reverse cold-blooded for enemy terror tests (making the enemy roll 3 dice and pick the highest!). I think Stegadons officially became insane. D3 wounds on impact hits is nuts. A single Stegadon can rip your average Ogre unit to shreds on the charge alone. 2 Stegadons just seem downright rude with this.
-Magic Items - Hit and miss. Stegadon Helm combined with Piranha Blade seems the way forward. Impact hits with armour piercing and multiple wounds on a T6 Saurus. Ouch.

Downsides...

Nasty price hike on the Slann. No free Discipline either so he's gone up a fair chunk. Also, the freebie rule they added to him (allowing him to swap spells with another Slann) really seems pointless unless you regularly play 3k games or something. The Disciplines are also meh. I can see the defensive ones being used (rerolling dispels, the D3 MR one and the extra dice channeling one) as well as Loremaster...but the others, not so much. The Ethereal one is a giant trap. The most expensive and it gives your frog unstable to boot. Ew.

Salamander tweaks. I'm sad. They lost their armour piercing flamethrower.

Oldblood Initiative - dropped from 4 to 3. Just saying.

So what do people think of Troglodons in a skink/magic heavy list? I can't see it being super effective in an army that isn't maximizing it's primal fury attacks but I really like the idea of it.

Well I get a chance to look at the book tomorrow, so I'll tell you guys what I think then.

 jonolikespie wrote:
So what do people think of Troglodons in a skink/magic heavy list? I can't see it being super effective in an army that isn't maximizing it's primal fury attacks but I really like the idea of it.

Trogolodons are fairly underwhelming, and the Primal Fighter boost is it's best selling point. Paying 200 odd points for a lacklustre monster that just so happens to be able to channel is not a great idea. Take a Slann and give him the "three chances to channel thing" with the channelling staff. Much more effective and much more useful.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Oldblood Initiative - dropped from 4 to 3. Just saying.

Every close combat lord was faster than them anyway, so I don't see the drop as being significant.

All those effects that involve initiative tests. That's the point. You went from a 66% chance of passing to a 50% chance.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
All those effects that involve initiative tests. That's the point. You went from a 66% chance of passing to a 50% chance.

Most of those effects are things like Purple Sun of Xereus, large templates (or other areas of effect), that would be better cast on your massive unit of even slower Saurus. So I wouldn't worry. Well, not about your Oldblood anyway.

On the topic of speed, despite all the lists I'm seeing with the Piranha Blade, I still think the ASF sword will be best for Oldbloods. You can get that, the Stegadon Helm and the Talis of Endurance (5++) if I'm not mistaken. Seems like a pretty good loadout to me.

Yeah, I'm really not seeing much benefit in getting a Troglodon. THe primal fighter boost is only once per game. With a right combination of magic buffs as well it could be good. But then you've got a close to pointless monster lumbering along not doing much until that point.
I'm not sure the benefits are really worth the price tag

I used the Troglodon in a game against OK and it's results were very lackluster. Without the ability to thunderstomp, my combat ability was seriously limited. Primal fighter didn't help much either since it only has 3 attacks. The primal roar was helpful in boosting a nearby block of saurus warriors but did nothing for himself. The Troglodon got into combat once with a group of regular ogres and we both did no wounds to each other but with the Ogres banner + 2 ranks, he won combat and the Troglodon's LD6 wasn't enough to hold.

The Troglodon is not a combat monster, which is what I tried to use it as. He is better suited as support. Stick by blocks of saurus and have it go for the flanks of enemy units that are already in combat with saurus. The roar is saved for dangerous units. But even then, he is rather expensive.

The Carnasaur on the other hand did very well with a Scar-Vet rider and the Blood Roar upgrade. Almost no one passed their fear test and he would eat 2-3 ogres a combat phase. With a Slann acting to regen wounds using the Apothesis HM spell (or however it is spelled), the big guy ate a Thundertusk, Bragg, and probably 6-8 Ogres/Ironguts.

The bastiladon with the Ark of Sotek did about as well as the Troglodon did. I didn't have any jungle swarms to boost up which was a big problem and the big guy died very easily to a group of Mournfang Cav. Probably best to use it as a support monster as well and keep it out of combat unless you have flank/rear charges.

edit: My build was mostly interested in trying out the new stuff. Next time I will definitely be bringing the Stegadon Ancient over the Troglodon and I still want to try the Sun Beam version of the Bastiladon.

Can a skink character on a Ripperdactyl join a unit of normal Ripperdactyls? Putting a character on a monstrous cav model turns it into a monster, which normally prevents the joining of units, right?

Is a Ripperdactly a monster or is it Monstrous Cavalry?

I think it's flying monstrous cavalry, but I'm also pretty sure the BRB says that if you mount a character onto monstrous cav, it counts as a monster. In which case, it can't join units, right?

 Tangent wrote:
I think it's flying monstrous cavalry, but I'm also pretty sure the BRB says that if you mount a character onto monstrous cav, it counts as a monster. In which case, it can't join units, right?

Wrong Monstrous Cavalry can join Monstrous cavalry. Flying characters cannot join flying units.

 captain collius wrote:

 Tangent wrote:
I think it's flying monstrous cavalry, but I'm also pretty sure the BRB says that if you mount a character onto monstrous cav, it counts as a monster. In which case, it can't join units, right?

Wrong Monstrous Cavalry can join Monstrous cavalry. Flying characters cannot join flying units.

What about flying monstrous cav joining flying monstrous cav units?