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Does he have character depth that makes him distinct, or just some stupid external thing (like being a perpetual)?
I haven't read the book, so I can not comment on how his character is developed, but making him a perpetual was done solely to differentiate from his brothers, IMO.
Does he have character depth that makes him distinct, or just some stupid external thing (like being a perpetual)?
IMO, very much so, and it's pretty far in line with what we always thought about the Salamanders: he's compassionate, loyal, humble.
I mean, while both he and Ferrus are craftsmen, he's pretty much the polar opposite personality-wise.
And honestly, I don't think the perpetual thing would work on any Primarch BUT him.
There's a lot of truth to this. Like others have pointed out, he's regarded as both the most human and most compassionate by a large margin. He's the shield that protects humanity, not the spear. It makes sense that he's essentially a tank...and a nigh unkillable one at that. He's the type of guy that when he job was over, he'd go back to working in a humble forge on Nocturne.
A lot of the primarchs major defining features were double edged swords. On one hand, Vulkan can't die. On the other hand, Vulkan can't die. His service will never end and it's his cross to bear.
Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: You should see the primarchs as 1/20th of the emperor.. They all have some personal traits and skills the emperor does... Like Aggron is super uber duper strong, Fulgrim is uber fast, Lorgar a masterfull speaker, the Lion a master tactician, Magnus a master Psyker..... So why shouldnt Vulkan inherrit this? It is a bit on the far overpowered side yes... but still...
Who got the best power then?
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Vulkan Lives (finished it yesterday) was pretty great.
Leaves open the notion that, while perpetuate cant be killed by conventional means, they can in fact be killed.
I think it also introduces Eldrad. But I can't be sure.
Enron wrote:Not all Primarchs are true immortals in the sense they cannot be killed. Ferrus Mannus/Sanguinious/ possibly papa smurf and Horus are indications that primarchs can in fact "die".
What makes Vulcan unique amongst the Primarchs is that he is truly unkillable ie. complete dismemberment will not stop him from healing.
There is also fluff indicating that some Primarchs are not immortal. I believe there is a passage in the space wolves codex where Leman Russ indicates that his "Lifes breath is almost spent..." What that means is up for interpretation however I think that he was saying that he was really old and was going to die soon.
Super lame point stands.
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
I'd really like the emperor to come back, but at the same time I'd prefer that he didn't. What effects would he have on the current IoM? He'd probably be furious as hell to see what has become of it.
It probably suits a lot of those high up in the Imperium that he doesn't return. They've got a gravy train to keep running.
He is fighting the deamons on terra coming out of the ruptured webway, "gatekeeper" gee... I wonder what that will be lol, since he can't die, he makes the ultimate anti deamon primarch...
When i first read that gate keeper bit. I was thinking more of Sangy at the Eternity gate. Erebus has got it in for him. Whoever johns after has been there for awhile and he needs another primarchs help. But then i did read it in a sitting
So, Black Library doesn't want you to know, but I found out the identity to another Perpetual:
Spoiler:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/11 00:27:03
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Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
What was Erebus doing? Why did he need to turn up and confuse me?
I think its a counter to the Legion BL book, my explanation/view:
Spoiler:
Erebus shows up because he exactly knows who John is and what his mission is. He arrives to make absolutly sure John makes it off the planet. Meaning that the Chaos Gods probably know of the Cabal and their plans. So if Erebus keeps pushing Johhn onwards (seemingly the will of the Dark Gods) they must know about killing the Emperor. Now we have to start wondering if Chaos also knows the prophecy they gave the AL. It seems that they do to a certain extent, how else would Erebus know John, if not by being informed by either the AL or the Dark Gods. They know the Emperor will be the death of them, but the Cabal thinks a Chaos victory will also result in the same event. The Chaos Gods seem to think very differently. The main point for that is, if they know that the Chaos victory would kill them, but losing (like in the prophecy) will bring Chaos in 10-20K years, why not play the waiting game. So the Cabal is probably wrong in that a Chaos victory will be the end of the Chaos Gods in the end.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/22 23:46:33
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Perpetuals are the worst gak to come out of Black Library, with the exception of C.S. Goto.
The reason the Alpha Legion turned is worse cak than anything Goto penned.
Every single Dark Angel left on caliban turning against their primarch for some reason would be another.
Everything in the Imperium is worse than it was before, knowledge is constantly lost, but somehow the huge ships that transport everything around the Imperium are immune from this degradation in technology - small floating servo skulls are possible, floating land speeders are possible, but floating bikes are hard.
I'd really like the emperor to come back, but at the same time I'd prefer that he didn't. What effects would he have on the current IoM? He'd probably be furious as hell to see what has become of it.
It probably suits a lot of those high up in the Imperium that he doesn't return. They've got a gravy train to keep running.
You see, this is the kind of fluff I can believe.
More likely the Emperor doesn't heal because all his energy goes into keeping the gate closed, but maybe someone on the council forgot to tell him that the last time a warp presence was measured on the other side of the gate was 5000 years ago.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/23 02:33:51
Harriticus wrote: So can someone cite the chapter this info is in? Should get added to lexicanum but I don't feel like reading the whole book myself
In the spoilers the two relevant parts quoted
Spoiler:
Page 400-401, the ''he'' is John and Elias is Erebus's rogue disciple told not to harm John untill he arrives:
'''I didn't say you had a choice, mortal.' Elias wagged the pistol's muzzle, gesturing for Grammaticus to step down from the ramp and out of the gunship's waiting hold.
He hestitated, 'I'll be shredded out there.'
Elias briefly looked at the athame dagger sheathed at his belt. 'You won't be out here long enough for that. The shredding comes later though.'''
Page 402-403, just after Erebus arrived, the fulgurite is a part of the Emperor's power, the one John needs to kill a perpetual, which Elias doesnt know:
'''Rise,' he said to Elias, though he was looking at Grammaticus. His voice sounded old, but bitter and filled with the resonance of true power.
'You have arrived at an auspicious moment-' Elias began, before Erebus lashed out with the fulgurite and slit the other Dark Apostle's throat.''
Skipping a few lines of description of Erebus and Elias dying forward, he adresses him by his first name Valdrekk:
'''You are as stupid as you are short-sighted, Valdrekk.' He showed him the fulgurite, still glowing slightly, clenched in Erebus's bionic hand. 'This does not win wars, mere chunks of wood and metal cannot do that. It was never the weapon you were looking for. The primarchs, the god-born, are the weapons. Sharpen our own, blunt our enemy's.'
Erebus leaned down and clamped his flesh hand over Elias's gasping mouth. The struggle was brief and uneventful.
'He goes to the Neverborn as a reward for trying to betray me.'
It took Grammaticus a couple of seconds to realise that Erebus was talking to him. He looked down and saw the fulgurite brandished towards him.
'Take it,' Erebus said. 'No one will stop you.' Now he looked up and there was terrible knowledge in his eyes. 'Go to your task, John Grammaticus.'
Warily, Grammaticus took the spear. He then walked back up the ramp and pressed the icon to close it. When he looked back, both Erebus and Elias were gone.''
Ending it one page 405, after John being reached psychicly by an Eldar:
'''And then,' he asked instead, 'when the fulgurite is deliverd?'
A sudden star flare forced Grammaticus to dim the glacis, effectively ending the flect, but he answered anyway.
'Then, Vulkan dies.'''
This could possibly mean so many things for the relation between the Cabal, their prophecy and the supposed fate of the Chaos Gods. It also shows that there is a way to kill perpetuals.
On the part of Vulkan being a perpetual, its all over the book, but this qoute should be the best for it:
Spoiler:
Page 219, Vulkan is the one that speaks at the start of the qoute:
'''Then what is the purpose of all this madness and death? If you want to kill me, just do it. Get it over with. Why won't you just.'
Shadow-fast, Curze snapped the fork off one of the dead human's wrists and rammed it deep into my chest.
I felt it pierce the breastbone, the dirty metal driven into my heart to impale it. Crouching over me, Curze proceeded to drag the blunt implement up through my ribcage, tearing trough the chest and neck as I jetted blood across his breastplate in arterial black.
'I tried,' he told me, snarling through his anger as the fork reached my chin and blackness began to intrude at the edge of my vision. 'I cut off your head, pierced your heart, crushed your skull, impaled every major organ in your body. I even burned and dismembered you. You came back, brother. Every. Single. Time. You cannot die.'
Aghast, mind reeling with my brother's confession, I died.''
On page 265 it continues in the present with Vulkan's story: ''I returned from the darkness again, only now I possessed the knowledge of how and why. To most men, learning that you are immortal....''
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/23 13:16:07
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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At most, he'll probably just get a resurrection rule like St Celestine got. Cause even if he can't be killed, he can clearly be knocked unconscious and/or need time to regenerate.
Interestingly enough Celestine's first case of actual resurrection was to help Salamanders as well, if I recall correctly.
Psienesis wrote: ... or perhaps GW should leave well enough alone and stop changing traits to characters they've established over the past 20 years?
If a character is immortal, and that character is some kind of warrior-figure (which, let's face it, all Primarchs are), then that character loses all dramatic tension. You know that the character is never going to die on the page in any way that is permanent. Or even suffer an injury that is more than a temporary, minor inconvenience.
That Vulkan is strongly supportive of humanity makes sense, as this has been reflected in Salamanders fluff since the beginning. He doesn't need to be immortal to be this way.
And, actually, since this is a telling of the Horus Heresy, we *do* know exactly how the story will end. Of the very few things that are considered "canon" to the setting by GW, the events of the Heresy are one of them.
You sir deserve a beer...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Harriticus wrote: So can someone cite the chapter this info is in? Should get added to lexicanum but I don't feel like reading the whole book myself
In the spoilers the two relevant parts quoted
Spoiler:
Page 400-401, the ''he'' is John and Elias is Erebus's rogue disciple told not to harm John untill he arrives:
'''I didn't say you had a choice, mortal.' Elias wagged the pistol's muzzle, gesturing for Grammaticus to step down from the ramp and out of the gunship's waiting hold.
He hestitated, 'I'll be shredded out there.'
Elias briefly looked at the athame dagger sheathed at his belt. 'You won't be out here long enough for that. The shredding comes later though.'''
Page 402-403, just after Erebus arrived, the fulgurite is a part of the Emperor's power, the one John needs to kill a perpetual, which Elias doesnt know:
'''Rise,' he said to Elias, though he was looking at Grammaticus. His voice sounded old, but bitter and filled with the resonance of true power.
'You have arrived at an auspicious moment-' Elias began, before Erebus lashed out with the fulgurite and slit the other Dark Apostle's throat.''
Skipping a few lines of description of Erebus and Elias dying forward, he adresses him by his first name Valdrekk:
'''You are as stupid as you are short-sighted, Valdrekk.' He showed him the fulgurite, still glowing slightly, clenched in Erebus's bionic hand. 'This does not win wars, mere chunks of wood and metal cannot do that. It was never the weapon you were looking for. The primarchs, the god-born, are the weapons. Sharpen our own, blunt our enemy's.'
Erebus leaned down and clamped his flesh hand over Elias's gasping mouth. The struggle was brief and uneventful.
'He goes to the Neverborn as a reward for trying to betray me.'
It took Grammaticus a couple of seconds to realise that Erebus was talking to him. He looked down and saw the fulgurite brandished towards him.
'Take it,' Erebus said. 'No one will stop you.' Now he looked up and there was terrible knowledge in his eyes. 'Go to your task, John Grammaticus.'
Warily, Grammaticus took the spear. He then walked back up the ramp and pressed the icon to close it. When he looked back, both Erebus and Elias were gone.''
Ending it one page 405, after John being reached psychicly by an Eldar:
'''And then,' he asked instead, 'when the fulgurite is deliverd?'
A sudden star flare forced Grammaticus to dim the glacis, effectively ending the flect, but he answered anyway.
'Then, Vulkan dies.'''
This could possibly mean so many things for the relation between the Cabal, their prophecy and the supposed fate of the Chaos Gods. It also shows that there is a way to kill perpetuals.
On the part of Vulkan being a perpetual, its all over the book, but this qoute should be the best for it:
Spoiler:
Page 219, Vulkan is the one that speaks at the start of the qoute:
'''Then what is the purpose of all this madness and death? If you want to kill me, just do it. Get it over with. Why won't you just.'
Shadow-fast, Curze snapped the fork off one of the dead human's wrists and rammed it deep into my chest.
I felt it pierce the breastbone, the dirty metal driven into my heart to impale it. Crouching over me, Curze proceeded to drag the blunt implement up through my ribcage, tearing trough the chest and neck as I jetted blood across his breastplate in arterial black.
'I tried,' he told me, snarling through his anger as the fork reached my chin and blackness began to intrude at the edge of my vision. 'I cut off your head, pierced your heart, crushed your skull, impaled every major organ in your body. I even burned and dismembered you. You came back, brother. Every. Single. Time. You cannot die.'
Aghast, mind reeling with my brother's confession, I died.''
On page 265 it continues in the present with Vulkan's story: ''I returned from the darkness again, only now I possessed the knowledge of how and why. To most men, learning that you are immortal....''
Thanks a lot, but what's the fulgurite? Some kind of relic?
Harriticus wrote: Thanks a lot, but what's the fulgurite? Some kind of relic?
Yeah you could call it that:
Spoiler:
Its a piece of the Emperor's weapon, not mentioned which weapon of his though. But its infused with a whole lot of the Emperor's psychic power. Enough to turn back the spell the Dark Apostle Elias tried to cast on it to achieve deamonhood. Instead of it channeling its power the fulgurite not only blocked the attempt, it killed most people in the room and fused the bones in one of Elias's arms (which now is a burned lump of flesh). Seems the raw power still stored in it is enough to end the perpetual's immortal soul/body.
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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mudhutman222 wrote: Does this mean that in the horus heresy rulebook he will be very OP?
"Vulkan stands back up with full wounds on a 1+"
LOL
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
So does this now mean that as The Emperor is also a perpetual that its only the strain of holding the webway closed/astronomican that's preveting him from recovering completely?
Mellow wrote: So does this now mean that as The Emperor is also a perpetual that its only the strain of holding the webway closed/astronomican that's preveting him from recovering completely?
In the ultimate catch-22 so it seems. If he was allowed to die he would be reborn but demons would swarm the palace from the broken webway and the astrominicon would cease causing the imperium to stop.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: So let me get this straight: Vulkan has crazy regenerative powers, even going so far as to regrow lost limbs? Sort of like, I dunno... a salamander?
Well this worries me but not entirely unpredicated, these novel things tend to be as bad as films at making implausible over exaggerations in an attempt to thrill they should realise that models that are already tanks are pretty OTT already making them immortal is just taking it to another level.
They shouldn't be immortal but i'd let them wolverine style recover that would be OK to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/27 14:16:44
The problem is that with this revelation of Vulkan being what he is, it would make sense that the Salamanders are looking to collect his artifacts. Out of all of the remaining living loyalist primarchs (i.e. ones that are not confirmed dead), Vulkan is the only one whose whereabouts are unknown and whose last known sighting wasn't going into the Eye of Terror or the Webway.
It's not too over the top, I'm sure he can be killed, he just can't die of natural causes, and according to the 40k wikia, Vulkan was present at the second founding, so we know he lives through this encounter.
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I wouldn't place too much faith in the Wikia entry though. Now I know there is a long standing rivalry between Wikia and Lexicanum (And, funnily enough, as I've recently re-vamped a great deal of the Salamanders articles of Lex with fluff from the Tome of Fire Trilogy, I'm bound to take that side), at least Lex includes all the citations for it's info.
I quote the passage Alfndrate is referring to directly from the Wikia here:
There is little known about how Vulkan of the Salamanders disappeared. He vanished into thin air around a thousand years after the Horus Heresy. Some claim that he died on Istvaan V, however he was later present at the Imperial Palace when Guilliman divided the Space Marine Legions into Chapters during the Second Founding. The Salamanders Chapter believes that after one of their number finds all nine relics that Vulkan left scattered around the galaxy for them to find, Vulkan will return to lead the Salamanders to victory against the Traitor Legions of Chaos and gain vengeance for the terrible slaughter suffered by the Chapter at Istvaan V.
However, there is no citations, and no links for the referencing for the information, hence it stands to reason that it cannot really be trusted. Of course, should somebody inform me, with citations, that this definitely the case, I'll cheerfully retract my above statement.
IMHO, the quote seems to be pure speculation of a fan at best. As the Salamanders have no confirmed successor chapters, and certainly no 2nd Founding successors, why then would their Primarch turn up at the splitting of other Legions? Surely, that has to be quite a personal and solemn moment for each legion, one which I can't imagine they would want another, not of their legion, intruding in. Similarly, how can we be sure the 2nd Founding happened in one fell swoop? It may have occured over several years or decades, as the Legions rebuilt their strength up to a point whereby a clean split is possible. Again, I can't imagine Vulkan hanging around for a couple of years just to witness that, especially when he would be more concerned with building up his own decimated Chapters strength.
I guess the wikia got it from the Black Templars IA
Dorn would not relent, and neither would Guilliman, Leman Russ of the Space Wolves and Vulkan of the Salamanders agreed with Dorn for they too did not want their Legions scattered to the corners of the galaxy, but Ferrus Mannus, Primarch of the Iron Hands and Corax of the Raven Guard backed the Ultramarines.
and from the IA: Salamanders
This organisation is still true today, although ever since the disappearance of Vulkan some thousand years after the Legion's Founding, the Captain of the First Company has been given the role of Chapter Master/quote]
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