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I love the wraithlord model, I want to buy three and use them all the time. But,

the question: How do I want to fill my 3 HS slots?

Is wraithlord ever going to be optimal?

Assume a 160 point wraithlord (2 BL, or a scatter laser, whatever),

For fewer points you can have a fire prism, which is more mobile and just as versatile (but cannot assault). Durability is a toss up, the prism is easier to get a cover save for.

For 20 fewer points you can have 2 war walkers with more shots. Less durable (but not by much, 4 hull points between the two models), more mobile due to outflank and battle focus. (not to mention, go ahead and buy the third WW to really fill the HS slot)

Then, the stock wraithknight for a few more points is just as shooty (except for the flamers/catapaults), more durable and more mobile. And cooler looking.

Similar arguments might be made for the other HS options, but I think the wraithlord is outclassed. Compared to the units discussed above, the WL is pretty easy to ignore, doesn't provide as big a shooting threat.

I'd love for someone to talk me out of this, because I'd like to use them. I *want* a flufftastic Iyanden list to be good.

Wraithlords are very slow...but very versatile units...kit it with a glaive, dual flamer, and dual bright lances and you can tackle most units...always run them in pairs. An Iyadnen list can speed them up and help keep up their wounds too.

I think one Wraithlord beats 2 Warwalkers most any day...just ask bolters...or anything S4...Prisms are more anti MEQ than anything...if you want to straight up kill tanks, take Wraithlords or Falcons.

 ductvader wrote:
I think one Wraithlord beats 2 Warwalkers most any day...just ask bolters...or anything S4...

If that were true we would be seeing Wraithlords in every list instead of Walkers in every list.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
I think one Wraithlord beats 2 Warwalkers most any day...just ask bolters...or anything S4...

If that were true we would be seeing Wraithlords in every list instead of Walkers in every list.

Well that depends on your play style...most players need a point and click interface...they care about damage output...NOW.

The patient player can appreciate a durability over damage output and knows that more turns of using a lower damage output unit can affect the game more overall.

I personally stopped being a wraithlord fan because it didnt fit my need for speed.

Warwalkers got the Run shoot run thing going for them.

Wraithlords are no slower or faster than any other simply infantry MC unit. They aren't shackled by wraithsight, and they can get cover from many sources.

You need to run them in multiples - i never run fewer than two.

They aren't the best at anything. You'll get better toughness from a wraithknight (at premium cost in dollars and points), better output from war walkers or a prism, and better combat from other slots (Avatar, comes to mind).

But the wraithlord can, for not that many points, give you good AT, good CC, good horde control, good toughness.

A wraithlord folds to genestealers or terminators, but dominates every non-specialist CC unit without breaking a sweat.

Despite what everyone says, T8 is nothing to sneeze at. Plasma wounds it on 5s. Lascannons on 3s. And, these high quality shots which have a prayer of wounding it are actually easier to get cover from now-a-days. And the codex has a heal.

Just last game two wraithlords completely turned a table quarter against a whole bunch of tau infantry (yes, i pulled the teeth of suits @ range).

To directly answer your question - wraithlords are often A right answer. They aren't always the best answer to a specific problem, but they are A answer to many problems. They're heavy support, but not game breakers.

So, don't just toss one in a list. I take one with my wraithwall because 30 T6 wounds and 9 T8 wounds is a pain in the mik'ta for people to deal with.

I think in most circumstances the Wraithknight is better, especially vs dual BL WLs. Now, that being said in my Wraithforce I find myself wishing for dual flamers on my Wraithknight.

In lower point games don't be afraid to try two of them with flamers and a glaive, 125pts(x2) of objective denial units(1/6 chance of scoring) that run at the enemy and alter their plans. This will require a fundamental list design though especially in terms of AT.

The WraithKnight versus Wraithlord argument will go back and forth all day...I personally think that unless you're taking the invuln...

2 T8 W3 > 1 T8 W6

The difference between a WL and a WK is so stark... the only real comparable is the toughness.

And the cost is a premium. In large point-limit games, obviously, the WK is better because you need to have a higher concentration of wounds and super-quality shooting (Distort weapons, or suncannon).

I believe in multiples, for a lot of reasons - list resilience, target priority confusion, flexibility... I too would rather have two WLs than a single wraithknight. And, two BLs for 160 isn't bad AT, it just isn't out-of-this-world efficiency, because you're getting so much else.

If you have the points and are playing a large, 2500 point game, take the WK (take 2!). If you're playing a 1500-1750 point game, your HS can be 2-3 WLs and you're fine.

I will run, at some point in the future, the super-iyanden list:

5 spiritseers
wraithseer

8x wraithguard
8x wraithguard
8x wraithguard

4x 2xBL + sword WLs

for fun.

It seems like it's the guns that add so much cost.
What about just flamers and glaive?

Keep him behind a rank of wraith troops for counter assault.

That works, but it is a limited unit. I ran it in 5th in low-point games, and it can be quite effective.

Especially now, since there's no wraithsight, that could work well, but definitely has to be used with intent.

I.e., point it at the opponents objective, and basically say "stop this unit, or lose". Three of them for cheap (thats, 375 total?) in a 1000-1500 point game would be difficult for the opponent to stop.

There aren't a lot of troop units that can deal with a wraithlord.

Anything wraithlords do, something else does better. If you want AT, fire prism. if you want anti-meq, shadow weaver or prism. If you want anti-horde, shadow weavers or nightspinner. If you want an immovable object, wraithknight. I can find no reason why i would ever want a wraithlord. At 90 they were rarely taken. At 120 with S8 3A? Nope.

Isn't the obvious answer to your criticism that the wraithlord does all of those things decently, and if you don't know what you're going to need, it's best to stay flexible?

A wraithknight sucks against a green tide, and a shadow weaver/nightspinner isn't that effective against a TDA/LR/DW list. A prism is good against Battlesuits, but not as good against pathfinders/kroot/steathsuits.

A wraithlord is "good" (not amazing, but good) against all of those targets.

People said the same things about the wraithlord last edition - not the best at anything, not tough enough. But i've been taking them for years and having good results for years.

Gwyidion wrote:
Isn't the obvious answer to your criticism that the wraithlord does all of those things decently, and if you don't know what you're going to need, it's best to stay flexible?

A wraithknight sucks against a green tide, and a shadow weaver/nightspinner isn't that effective against a TDA/LR/DW list. A prism is good against Battlesuits, but not as good against pathfinders/kroot/steathsuits.

A wraithlord is "good" (not amazing, but good) against all of those targets.

People said the same things about the wraithlord last edition - not the best at anything, not tough enough. But i've been taking them for years and having good results for years.

I'm sure you've been having good results with the WL for a while, I guess I still have to wonder if you'd have *better* results with something else, which is kind of the point.

Why isn't a prism good against pathfinders/kroot/stealthsuits?
And why are we relying on our HS slot to take care of those units? Our troops are better equipped (wave serpent).

I guess I really need a HS choice to hard counter the riptide (or things like the ritpide). 3 war walkers is great in this role if they weren't so fragile.

Prisms aren't that good against anything which has a good cover save. You put a few high-str wounds on some infantry, they get their 4+ or 3+ cover. Doesn't matter than you're wounding on 2s and ignoring armor, you still kill only 2-3 pathfinders.

Your HS choice should be a reflection of the rest of your list.

I take wraithlords because I run a foot wraith list and the choice of wraithlords both fits in points wise (i'm short on points because wraiths are expensive) and enhances target saturation, and shore up the weaknesses of wraithguard (CC against hidden powerfists and hordes).

I wouldn't take wraithlords in a serpent-spam list - i'd take prisms (the lance shot should help out against riptides).

And riptides shouldn't be a worry for eldar. Lots of things are AP2. Force invuln saves and laugh. Shuricannons, star cannons, bright lances, shuripults of all kind, Distort, monofilament...

Wraithlords are basically the most flexible unit in the heavy support slot. No unit in HS is an auto-include. I only take exception to two ideas - the idea that WLs are "bad" and the idea that WK are simply Wraithlords-plus.

Like I said above - wraithlords aren't the "best" answer to anything. But they're an acceptable answer to a lot of things.

Wraithlord isnt good against TDA,DW,pathfinders,kroot, or stealthsuits, so that kind of kills your argument. terminators have an inv and a fist, killing you in melee much faster than you can kill them. pathfinders are all the way across the board. You are slow. Have fun with that. Same with kroot, and kroot have sniper weapons. Stealthsuits are rarely used and have both range and speed over you. You cant shoot them to death unless you get in flamer range, but who is going to let you get in range when they are jump inf.

A general loadout for WL are 2x BL 2x flamers with glave. AT that point its significantly more expensive than anything besides the WK, which is significantly better vs the majority of armies. The "jack of all trades" tag means zero if you are overcosted for any role you want to slot it into. It isnt very survivable to AT weapons, it isnt very shooty at range, its slow, and its not very killy in melee.

Shadow weaver/nightspinner are fine vs TDA/DW. They are rending and can supply quantity of wounds. Especially shadow weavers vs deepstriking terminators. having ~10 saves with 2-3 rends is pretty good value for 90 points.

Prism's main job is AT. If you have to kill meq, you are a skimmer and can ignore some cover by just moving. Against pathfinders, you bring 3x shadow weavers and watch as they take 6-7 saves, fail enough for a ld test, then are either pinned or running.

If you think rending is sufficent to counter wraithknights, you havent played actual games against them. When a tau player fields 2 or 3, you dont have enough rending in almost any army to counter that. 3+ inv vs rends means you need 90 hits from shuriken weapons to kill a single one. Brightlances dont have the ROF to deal with riptides before the riptide kills your wraithlords.

You have 3 HS slots. Why take an overpriced jack of all trades when you can take 2 wraithknights and shadow weavers and be better vs almost any target the game can provide.

I've just gotten a wraithlord and used it in two games so far, in an Eldar/DE force. It's not bad, although I can see that there are many choices more specialized that perform better. I'm using a 2xBL/2xFlamer one, with no sword. It's kind of like a cheaper default wraithknight then, with two high S anti-tank weapons.

A wraithknight would probably be better at most things, with faster movement, better guns, and double the wounds, but the Brightlance Wraithlord still gets to affect a large portion of the board with 36" range guns, so a 6" move isn't the worst. It's not like you're a C'tan Shard and can't do anything unless you're in melee, you actually have good guns. Having a spiritseer nearby to Voice of Twilight (if you're going Iyanden) gives you another few inches. I'm not using a wraithknight because I don't want to spend that amount of money on a single model at this juncture, and also need something easily transported in a case, which removes both the wraithknight and DE ravager (if we're thinking about anti-vehicle in Eldar/DE).

My wraithlord didn't end up dying in either battle I fought, and it wasn't for lack of trying on my opponent's part. I was playing Iyanden, so it was my warlord too, so it kept away StW from my opponents.

A wraithknight would probably be better, but for the non-tactical reasons I've said, and for his points value, a BL/BL/Flamer/Flamer wraithlord doesn't seem like an actively bad choice.

 zephoid wrote:
Wraithlord isnt good against TDA,DW,pathfinders,kroot, or stealthsuits, so that kind of kills your argument. terminators have an inv and a fist, killing you in melee much faster than you can kill them. pathfinders are all the way across the board. You are slow. Have fun with that. Same with kroot, and kroot have sniper weapons. Stealthsuits are rarely used and have both range and speed over you. You cant shoot them to death unless you get in flamer range, but who is going to let you get in range when they are jump inf.

A general loadout for WL are 2x BL 2x flamers with glave. AT that point its significantly more expensive than anything besides the WK, which is significantly better vs the majority of armies. The "jack of all trades" tag means zero if you are overcosted for any role you want to slot it into. It isnt very survivable to AT weapons, it isnt very shooty at range, its slow, and its not very killy in melee.

Shadow weaver/nightspinner are fine vs TDA/DW. They are rending and can supply quantity of wounds. Especially shadow weavers vs deepstriking terminators. having ~10 saves with 2-3 rends is pretty good value for 90 points.

This is such classic theoryhammering crap. My last game vs Tau, turn 4, I walked two wraithlords into range of a pathfinder and a FW squad. Flamed both, broke both, cleared 2 objectives. This happened because the game isn't played on a table devoid of cover, other units, or objectives. the wraithknight in the same situation would have no recourse except to kill a few troops and charge - maybe disorder charge.

Your argument of kroot vs wraithlords is exactly the same against wraithknights, except 'lords have flamers. Same goes for terminators - a wraithknight isn't good against them either. Do you even read your own posts? Damage output of a suncannon vs TDA and 2x BL against TDA probably isn't that much better due to blast size and base size. Oh, and the wraithlord can challenge the Termy sergeant and completely escape all of the terminators attacks.

A wraithknight is not just a better wraithlord. It is a much, much different unit.

Glad your WL is working out for you, but I don't think the example you're providing is a good argument for their general utility.

The fact that after four turns at least 250 points worth of wraithlords moved two cheap units of tau off an objective isn't that compelling.

If pathfinders have survived 4 turns, they've already done their job by markerlighting all game.

You can call it theoryhammering crap if you want, but the arguments about WL being overcosted are pretty compelling.

Its unfortunate.

what the hell are you talking about? They aren't compelling.

The point is that two wraithlords (330, to be exact) walked into the teeth of a Tau army and cleared two objectives.

The point is that a wraithknight could not have done that.

The wraithknight would have no trouble replicating the early-game behavior of the wraithlords, which was taking 2 hullpoints off of longstrike.

It could also have put wounds on a riptide.

Could it challenge a battlesuit commander?

could it also then flame firewarriors and pathfinders?

The point is they're different units, and wraithlords are more flexible. Thats it - they're different.

Well, the Wraithlord is a fluffy model in an Iyanden army. However, unfortunately, its a quite underwhelming unit. I'd stay away from it in competitive play. There are better HS choices like Warwalkers and others (depending on the army you're fielding).

Anecdotal evidence means literally nothing. Lots of players are bad at making tactical decisions. Also, few people build highly competitive lists for fun games. Take wraithlords to a few competitions and see how well walking into the teeth of a tau army works.

Pathfinders ignore cover with marker lights, so the quantity of cover on the map means little. He had 2 squads. 2 riptides clear your wraithlords in about 2 turns with marker lights. With the HBC it can probably clear it in one with a bit of luck.

By turn 2 the wraithknight is in combat with the first squad of pathfinders, clears it, and then punches the 2nd set by turn 3. Yes, a wraithknight can do the exact same thing you reference but faster. However, shadow weavers would have done the trick by turn 2-3 also. Either they would be fleeing, to ground all game, or dead. We have better things than clearing pathfinders on turn 4.

Challenges dont make you immune to damage. It simply gives you one turn and one kill. The next you get hit back by those terminators and it replicates the same as if you had not challenged (the sergent for terminators has a sword, so he dosent do anything vs a WL or WK). Challenging a battlesuit commander is also worthless. Whatever he is with, you can punch better (unless allied). You kill ~3-4 with a wraithknight, he tests on ld6-7 and likely fails, then is swept on I2. Same result. In fact, since the WK is S10 he would kill the commander faster since the WL probably takes a few turns to do all 4 wounds to the T5 commander.

Whatever. I'm not going to toss out years of results in local one-day tournies on the basis of your poor internet theorycrafting.

Cover matters not because of cover saves, but because it funnels units.

Cover saves matter against Tau because markerlights are finite.

You do your thing, I'll do mine.

I swear to god its like leading a child by the hand some days.

Wraithlords are good. They are better this edition because they are now characters and can challenge powerful characters out of combat.

A mech gunline can be charged by fast movers en mass. Wraithlords, spread out among the gunline can deter this tactic. Fire prisms can't. Whatever the fire prism and war walkers do, the wave serpent and its passengers already do. The Nightspinner has utility is sniping targets out of LOS, but after that the WL gives of more tactical flexibility on the table top in a well round list than just adding more and more mid strength shooting which the Eldar already excel at everywhere else.

Gwyidion wrote:
The difference between a WL and a WK is so stark... the only real comparable is the toughness.

And the cost is a premium. In large point-limit games, obviously, the WK is better because you need to have a higher concentration of wounds and super-quality shooting (Distort weapons, or suncannon).

I believe in multiples, for a lot of reasons - list resilience, target priority confusion, flexibility... I too would rather have two WLs than a single wraithknight. And, two BLs for 160 isn't bad AT, it just isn't out-of-this-world efficiency, because you're getting so much else.

If you have the points and are playing a large, 2500 point game, take the WK (take 2!). If you're playing a 1500-1750 point game, your HS can be 2-3 WLs and you're fine.

I will run, at some point in the future, the super-iyanden list:

5 spiritseers
wraithseer

8x wraithguard
8x wraithguard
8x wraithguard

4x 2xBL + sword WLs

for fun.

Where do you play sir? The meta here will allow 40k Approved FW models however they specifically ban Bel Annath due to the change in the force org chart. They claim it is too powerful but yet they allow the 4 riptides from the Farsight enclave.

So you want us to refute your anecdotal evidence without resorting to any stats, any comparison between units, only our own anecdotal evidence. No theory crafting right? OK, here we go.

Turn 1 vs gunline DE, both wraithlords died. Admittedly this was 5th with the better cover saves even, but that didnt change anything. Now, does that anecdotal evidence do anything at all to refute your claim? Do you want to talk about 6th and the current codex?

I used wraithlords on occasion before the warp hunters came around or in fun lists but even last edition where cover was better and the wraithlord was cheaper, they were still on the chopping block every list. Every tourney they were gone.

While marker lights are finite, so are your threats. Normally your HS are going to be the primary threats for early game. Therefore they will get targeted by the marker lights. This tau player apparently either had a poor list or had bad target priority in that he ignored your 6" move per turn MCs until you were in assault range. Thats just bad playing, not even the quality of your units.


Taking a prism and a shadow weaver is ~100 points less than 2 wraithlords. With that 100 points i can put those into a mantle autarch or scorpions with claw to counter melee elements and be much better at the firepower roll. Or i can take the 330 point and grab a wraithknight and shadow weavers for the same and have a better, faster melee threat with similar ranged firepower.

As i noted before, challenges are vastly overrated. Anything the enemy doesnt want you to get in combat with can be kept out of combat, you arent fast. Anything that wants to be in combat can either beat a wraithlord in melee despite the challenge or denies the challenge and beats the wraithlord to death with the squad. However wraithlords will rarely see melee due to 3W 3+ and occupying the slots normally being shot at with AT weapons.

Gwyidion wrote:
Whatever. I'm not going to toss out years of results in local one-day tournies on the basis of your poor internet theorycrafting.

Cover matters not because of cover saves, but because it funnels units.

Cover saves matter against Tau because markerlights are finite.

You do your thing, I'll do mine.

I swear to god its like leading a child by the hand some days.

Here's a thread where people are discussing the relative merits of the 6e Eldar heavy support slots, and when people disagree you revert to a petulant whine.

I'd suggest a couple of revisions to your post,
- don't call people's posts "poor internet theorycrafting". We're here to have a discussion; engage or don't. Stuff like this is (intentional or not) trolling.
- Don't compare people to children because they disagree with you.

Nobody has suggested you need to "toss out years of results in local one-day tournies". Keep using the WL if you like it so much. The point of the thread is trying to understand *why* they work and whether there are more point efficient ways of achieving the same goals.

jcress410 wrote:

I'd suggest a couple of revisions to your post,
- don't call people's posts "poor internet theorycrafting". We're here to have a discussion; engage or don't. Stuff like this is (intentional or not) trolling.
- Don't compare people to children because they disagree with you.

I agree with him. It is "poor internet theorycrafting." The other guy is saying, "look, a whole Tau army can take out a pair of wraithlords. Therefore wraithlords suck."

 zephoid wrote:



As i noted before, challenges are vastly overrated. Anything the enemy doesnt want you to get in combat with can be kept out of combat, you arent fast. Anything that wants to be in combat can either beat a wraithlord in melee despite the challenge or denies the challenge and beats the wraithlord to death with the squad. However wraithlords will rarely see melee due to 3W 3+ and occupying the slots normally being shot at with AT weapons.

I have found this to be not true in most cases. Once the dice are rolled and the game is played, all sorts of things can happen. Assaults are not dictated as easily as this. It is much more chaotic and confusing.

One thing that a wraithlord excels at above any other unit would be babysitting.

A squad of rangers on a back objective isn't that scary.

A squad of rangers and a wraithlord.. Suddenly nobodies storming the building. What's the matter guys? You don't want my objective anymore?

Otherwise they help a wraithlist against hordes up close, blunt a charge of most kinds like a champ, have reliable shooting and flamers of death. A cheap way to grab some high toughness.