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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/09 23:41:08
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Fixture of Dakka
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I don't know nothing about Tau. I don't play anymore, so not familiar with the rules anymore. I have been reading a lot on these forums about Tau this or Tau that, Tau Riptide this, Tau Riptide that. I am surprised it's a Monstrous Creature. Is this because vehicles are not that great anymore in 6th?
So if the Riptide was a vehicle instead of a MC, would it still be as popular? Do you think GW made it a MC so it would actually sell because they realized they made a mistake with vehicles? I just find it weird how a mechanical instrument is not a vehicle and has health points or hit points like a normal MC. Do those other mini robots, (sorry forget the name) are the vehicles or do they have Health points/hitpoints, don't mean hull points.
So for Tau players, would you field the Riptide if it wasn't an MC?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/09 23:41:31
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong". |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/09 23:45:00
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
Mexico
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The Crisis suits? they always have been infantry.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/09 23:47:34
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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The word you are looking for is Wounds. And, yes, Crisis Suits have Wounds, because there is a little blue fish-cow guy sitting inside of it.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/09 23:48:28
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Ahhh Wounds. No I feel like an idot. LOL.
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Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong". |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/09 23:51:37
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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Psienesis wrote:The word you are looking for is Wounds. And, yes, Crisis Suits have Wounds, because there is a little blue fish-cow guy sitting inside of it.
There is a little puny human in a sentinal.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/09 23:52:19
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Major
Fortress of Solitude
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hotsauceman1 wrote: Psienesis wrote:The word you are looking for is Wounds. And, yes, Crisis Suits have Wounds, because there is a little blue fish-cow guy sitting inside of it.
There is a little puny human in a sentinal.
Sshhhh.
Stop using logic.
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Celesticon 2013 Warhammer 40k Tournament- Best General
Sydney August 2014 Warhammer 40k Tournament-Best General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/09 23:54:06
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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There is, but for some reason, GW decided to make Crisis Suits infantry and Sentinels vehicles. I'd rather see Sentinels as a "mechanized infantry" unit myself, but, I am not GW.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/09 23:56:50
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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hotsauceman1 wrote: Psienesis wrote:The word you are looking for is Wounds. And, yes, Crisis Suits have Wounds, because there is a little blue fish-cow guy sitting inside of it.
There is a little puny human in a sentinal. A sentinel is not a powered exoskeleton. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_exoskeleton#Current_exoskeletons Although...is a mecha an exoskeleton, or is it a vehicle? Crisis suits are closer to mechas I think, due to their size and the fact that it's piloted.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/10 00:02:43
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 00:09:06
Subject: Re:If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Its the difference between a suit of armor that is worn and a vehicle which you pilot.
A Riptide is really just an upscaled battlesuit.
A Dreadknight is Terminator armor with a large exoskeleton.
Thus they make more sense as a Monstrous Creature than a walker.
Frankly I think Dreadnoughts should be shifted over to being MCs. Reserve being a Walker for things that are much less agile, like Sentinels and War Walkers.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 00:11:16
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Focused Fire Warrior
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Tau vehicles have a distinctive look.
Tau suits have a distinctive suit.
Broadsides are not vehicles even though there more heavily armoured crises without jump packs.
Wh yshould the riptide be a vehicle when a) it has the distinctive look of a battle suit, and b) like the broadside is a sup uped crises
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 00:39:57
Subject: Re:If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Grey Templar wrote:Its the difference between a suit of armor that is worn and a vehicle which you pilot.
A Riptide is really just an upscaled battlesuit.
At what point they stop being a "suit"? Riptide - and even regular Crisis suits - have their pilots sitting in their chests, not really unlike Sentinels or War Walkers. They don't "wear" them any more than tank driver wears a tank.
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Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 00:42:05
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I remember reading an article back on the GW website way back when Tau first came out about how they had a heck of a time figuring out how to handle battlesuits. One thing they tried doing was making them vehicles with like 11/10/10 for crisis suits, and 12/11/10 for broadsides. They said that broke the game in half because you couldn't put enough anti tank fire on the board to deal with them, and stealth suits always ruined the system because they'd have to be like an AV 9 vehicle or something. Also if they handled it like Terminator armor and just had a t3 1 wound tau with a 3 or a 2+ armor save it broke the game in the opposite direction since the suits were absurdly easy to kill.
Not really relevant to the current discussion that much, but I would guess a similar process went into evaluating this decision, although you never know.
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Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!
BrianDavion wrote:Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2025/06/03 21:08:32
Subject: Re:If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Defending Guardian Defender
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To me, there is absolutely no reasonable line of distinction between MC and walkers anymore.
Riptides and Wraithknights have guy in there. That guy is actually behind as much armor plating as a tank crew. It is definitely more plating then that over half dead guy in a dread.
Dreadknights are the same basic design as war walkers and penitent engines. The knight is a MC, yet the others are vehicle.
Dreadlords and Canoptect Spiders are crewless engines. Talos and Cronos are meldings of flesh and engine. All are MC. All the deamon engines, crewless meldings of flesh, deamonic matter and machine are vehicles.
Really, it seems to be done on a basis of "whatever the designer", just another example of the rather closed of and unprofessional design philosophy of GW.
As for the OPs actual question:
I'm not very familiar with tau and get that this is not the greatest answer, but how popular are Forgefiends? Because they are the closest thing I can think of and we don't really see them often, do we?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 01:20:20
Subject: Re:If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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It would entirely depend on the stats and points cost. People would still take Walkers if they were reasonably priced for 6th.
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 01:27:25
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I am sure they wouldn't be taken as often.
I took a Defiler (just for kicks) in my last game.
1 shot'ed.
200pts.
Gone.
Will i want to take it again? Nope.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 01:43:33
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Preacher of the Emperor
Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror
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Zanderchief wrote:I am sure they wouldn't be taken as often.
I took a Defiler (just for kicks) in my last game.
1 shot'ed.
200pts.
Gone.
Will i want to take it again? Nope.
Now thats just bad luck, but i can see your point, you can't one shot a MC, at least not easily. Ive had some success with a Defiler simply for the reason that it tends to be a huge bullet sponge, if i put it in cover people are going to have a heck of a time shooting at it, and they are not shooting my other units on the board (plus lucky it will not dies will really piss off your opponent)
As for the topic at hand, I think MCs are the natural progression of what walkers should have been, so that they are differentiated from vehicles, since the concept of anti-tank has changed a great deal in this edition. People want hardy units in their awesome sauce 1ft tall mecha walkers so the rules are going to reflect that. So thats a sales standpoint. I would also like to think the difference that makes a warithknight or Riptide different from a Sentinel or a war walker is the fact that both had advanced AI/Wraith control systems that can be extremely agile, dodge shots, do self repairs, and generally accomplish a lot more than a vehicle that is essentially a metallic frame that moves with very little control or articulation. Case in point, the Dreadknight is the most advanced piece of tech the Imperium can muster in this department, so it is a MC, since it is able to mimic the body movements of its pilot and they have minute control over its movements. This is not the case with a Sentinel or Dreadnought, which is not very fast, are very top heavy, and i imagine do not move very well beyond smashing into everything it touches. The war walker eludes me, as it may be a throwback, or they just figured that since it has walker in its name they better stick to it, or maybe because it does not have a wraith pilot.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/10 01:45:20
17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"
-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 03:15:08
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun
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It depends on how its operated on whether or not its a walker or an exoskeletal suit.
Walkers are piloted by a dude sitting in a cockpit manning controls, think the cockpit from Mechwarrior games and thats basically what it is. Hes not linked with it any more than our current day F15 pilots are to the jet, everything is done manually.
Exosuits act as an extension of limbs. When the pilot moves, it moves, and he has no controls or buttons to hit because it reacts directly to him. This allows much much faster and precise reaction times because the pilot simply acts as though he werent in a suit, whereas a walker has to hit the right buttons and pull the right levers.
If it were a walker, i dont think anyone would care long as it wasnt AV12 (in equivalence to current durability, it should be AV14/13/11 or something ridiculous like that) because it sits on your side of the table anyway.
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An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 03:21:10
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Preacher of the Emperor
Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror
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Vineheart01 wrote:It depends on how its operated on whether or not its a walker or an exoskeletal suit.
Walkers are piloted by a dude sitting in a cockpit manning controls, think the cockpit from Mechwarrior games and thats basically what it is. Hes not linked with it any more than our current day F15 pilots are to the jet, everything is done manually.
Exosuits act as an extension of limbs. When the pilot moves, it moves, and he has no controls or buttons to hit because it reacts directly to him. This allows much much faster and precise reaction times because the pilot simply acts as though he werent in a suit, whereas a walker has to hit the right buttons and pull the right levers.
If it were a walker, i dont think anyone would care long as it wasnt AV12 (in equivalence to current durability, it should be AV14/13/11 or something ridiculous like that) because it sits on your side of the table anyway.
Now that i think about it, im almost wondering if walkers are being phased out with some of these models because determining side armor would be a HUGE pain with some of them. yeah you can draw the X, but since its extremely posable the lines will get blurred often. Plus Riptides have big shields, it could be running, it could be crouching, etc.
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17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"
-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 05:13:19
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Just look at how popular hammerheads and skyrays are. They're like worse, but cheaper riptides. But they're vehicles, and riptides aren't. Everybody takes a couple of riptides. Haven't seen many hammerheads.
That's the difference between vehicles and monstrous creatures. Well, that and that monstrous creatures get an armor save, and an invul save, and can't be one-shotted by a single meltagun.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 06:42:12
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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A monstrous creature should be just that, not a piloted suit. How can the daemon engines be walkers yet the riptide and DK be MCs..
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 09:02:45
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ailaros wrote:Just look at how popular hammerheads and skyrays are. They're like worse, but cheaper riptides. But they're vehicles, and riptides aren't. Everybody takes a couple of riptides. Haven't seen many hammerheads.
That's the difference between vehicles and monstrous creatures. Well, that and that monstrous creatures get an armor save, and an invul save, and can't be one-shotted by a single meltagun.
Big advantage of a tank is supposed to be that you can't be hurt from small arms fire. However, high-T creature with 2+ save defeats this, because for practical purposes it's just as invulnerable against small arms fire than a tank. If one wants to distinguish between vehicles and monstrous creatures, then at very least 2+ save monstrous creatures shouldn't exist. Wraithlord, for example, has just 3+ save and 3 wounds.
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Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 09:19:25
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Fixture of Dakka
Temple Prime
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Backfire wrote: Ailaros wrote:Just look at how popular hammerheads and skyrays are. They're like worse, but cheaper riptides. But they're vehicles, and riptides aren't. Everybody takes a couple of riptides. Haven't seen many hammerheads.
That's the difference between vehicles and monstrous creatures. Well, that and that monstrous creatures get an armor save, and an invul save, and can't be one-shotted by a single meltagun.
Big advantage of a tank is supposed to be that you can't be hurt from small arms fire. However, high-T creature with 2+ save defeats this, because for practical purposes it's just as invulnerable against small arms fire than a tank. If one wants to distinguish between vehicles and monstrous creatures, then at very least 2+ save monstrous creatures shouldn't exist. Wraithlord, for example, has just 3+ save and 3 wounds.
You sir, make my armored shell Tyranids sad.
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Midnightdeathblade wrote:Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 09:39:39
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Well, and with the wraithknight, they're immune to small arms fire just like a vehicle. A vehicle with a 3+ save and practically a baneblade amount of hull points. That can't be one-shotted.
Though I'd also agree on the other side of it as well. To bring things back to Tau, a MC with T6 with a 2+ takes an average of 73 guard lasgun shots to cause a single wound. That's practically immune in my book...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/10 09:40:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 09:58:39
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Fixture of Dakka
Temple Prime
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Ailaros wrote:Well, and with the wraithknight, they're immune to small arms fire just like a vehicle. A vehicle with a 3+ save and practically a baneblade amount of hull points. That can't be one-shotted.
Though I'd also agree on the other side of it as well. To bring things back to Tau, a MC with T6 with a 2+ takes an average of 73 guard lasgun shots to cause a single wound. That's practically immune in my book...
Don't forget the FNP they can buy. Because feth small arms fire.
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Midnightdeathblade wrote:Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 10:00:29
Subject: Re:If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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I put it you that it is the fact that Dreadknights, Riptides and Wraithknights have 12 inch movement, can dish out tons of damage, 6 T6 Wounds with a 2+ and some sort of invulnerable, all for much cheaper than the non-mecha Monstrous Creatures that makes them popular, rather than any inherent strengths of being an MC vs. being a Walker.
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 13:03:56
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun
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Wraithknight obviously is immune to small fire, since S5 is the weakest that can hurt it and most armies dont have it on troops except a few throughout the units (excluding Tau obviously), but i wouldnt say other MCs of T6 or so are immune. Bad dice are bad dice. The sheer fact that it can happen however unlikely is better than not at all like the heavier tanks have. Resilient and immune are way different. I have taken out 5 terminators with a group of 10 grots and a runtherder. Ungodly unlikely, but it happened (and the look on his face was priceless lol). While not the same situation, still a good example of how bad dice can be. Those terminators would still be alive if grot guns couldnt even attempt to hurt them no matter how unlikely. (Also had a game in Warmachine where it was decided on one last blow to my Warlock. The model swinging was throwing 4 dice and only needed a total of 5 taking the 3 lowest, he rolled 4 1s and i won afterwords)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/10 13:05:39
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 13:24:35
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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Zande4 wrote:A monstrous creature should be just that, not a piloted suit. How can the daemon engines be walkers yet the riptide and DK be MCs..
mmm id love my FF's to be T6 with 6 wounds rather than the weaker walker stats it has, sure i could only equip it with 2 weapons but thats not sooo bad if it had a larger survivability.
if the riptide was statted as the FF/MF etc then no, i dont think it would be as popular.
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CSM 20,000 Pts
Daemons 4,000 (ish)
WoC over 10,000
6000+ Pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 14:23:08
Subject: Re:If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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My opinion is that it would still be popular, but not as popular. Being a MC is definitely an advantage, for sure.
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daedalus wrote:
I mean, it's Dakka. I thought snide arguments from emotion were what we did here.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 14:38:47
Subject: If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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Imo the game isn't done yet.
A walker is a gun platform. A CHEAP gun platform. All the s7 nonsense doesn't really hurt it.
And the forge fiend is good for exactly that. 5+ invulnerable and it can get Hp back.
The riptide went wrong when they gave it a way to shoot more then two weapons
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/10 14:40:59
Subject: Re:If the Tau Riptide was a vehicle, would it still be popular?
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Hellion Hitting and Running
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For the most part we have a riptide that is a vehicle, it is called a hammerhead with ion cannon. Granted the difference between ap 2 and 3 is pretty big but for the most part the weapons are pretty much the same and both are most likely to be taking a sms as a secondary weapon. There are people who take the ion heads as it is a bit cheaper, 125pts vs 185pts. but the riptide is more reliable than the hammerhead. What this means is the riptide will likely take about the same amount of fire to take it down every time, while the hammerhead can be one shot (especially on the first turn before jink). Whats more being a MC the riptide can reliably grab linebreaker at the end of game or jump next to an objective to deny it from your opponent.
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