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 djones520 wrote:
Hate the bashing all you want, it's entirely warranted. The thing slaughters everything on the ground, and it slaughters everything in the air with it's vectored strike and other fliers inability to evade it.

That being said, it's a legal option for your army to use, so use it. The nerf bat will come one day, but until then you might as well get your moneys worth out of it.

No it isn't.. it isn't at all..

Look at the rest of the Codex, "oh hey Thousand sons look good? lolnope too expensive, tanks look cool? Oh no they can get one shot killed, Mutilators look awesome, HA! they can even assault that well, Khorne Berserkers? lol your spending a ton of points for something that can be Pie plated and Boltered out of the scene, Hellbrutes? nope too easy to kill just like all dreadnoughts, Warp Talons? don't even make me laugh, The fiends? will be giving first blood to the enemy Defiler? same problem, Possessed? too expensive, try again..." the list goes on and on and tbh the Codex is not up to the standard as other codex's we have more not as good units as other armies do, the new stuff are not good when facing off competitive armies, and essentially we were shoehorned into the famous "Plague Dupstep Turkeys" where it was the same list build as the old codex the only change was that the DP was "de-promoted" and replaced with Noise marines and Helldrakes, so when other armies get a ton of variety of units that they can use why cant CSM? exactly one unit that we get flakk for if that was not around I would guarantee people would be telling others who start up the hobby to not pick CSM as they are not up to standards with other armies. we were a C+P job of our 4th ed. equivalent, so tell me can you say that to the daemons or the Tau or even the Eldar? nope because they got a nice boost in power with majority of units the CSM got one unit that people complain about. not warranted at all imho.

In my opinion the only thing that makes them too strong for their points is the 360 degree ark of fire and the 5+ invulnerable is a bit of a pain to when all other flyers need to jink for it. if the arc of fire was limited to 180 and the template could not go behind that 180 degree ark it would be fine. Also Eldar should have battle focus. its justified in fluff and is not OP. t helps make foot viable as without it to allow to move up the board faster or into cover the guys would be blasted. T3 with 3+ 4+ or 5+ armour is incredibly easy to take down. And when you are paying between 9 and 30pts a model (although Dark Reapers should be behind an ageis anyway) you need cover and mobility to survive. Otherwise it would become a duck shoot. And Tau not having access to their options would make no sense and kill the codex. they are entirely focused on shooting.

Also people don't complain about the Codex they complain about the Heldrake as one particular unit saying that one unit is unbalanced and Op not the codex. So the bashing of the Heldrake is warranted but of the entire codex it isn't. Which is why we don't see it very much.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

Do you have warm frilly cotton wool Jackets? its freezing

And I agree with you there are ways as you have said of taking them down.. any army can take down Helldrakes, but why do after so long (even when the CSM codex is really not up to the standards of the other armies) should CSM receive the most Flakk for one unit... I would guarantee that if Thousand sons were cheaper MEQ would whine about how "OP" they are.. there are worse units (and armies in some cases) out there.

Meh, we're Chaos, it's always been cool to hate-on Chaos...

Seriously, ever since 3rd edition when I started Chaos have only had 1 really OTT codex. Every other book has been either balanced like the current ones, or else complete trash like the 3rd & 4th ed books.
As a long time Chaos player, (Daemons mostly), I've just gotten used to the attitude that we're not allowed to have nice things like everyone else can.


And yeah, if Thousand Sons were to ever drop to say 20pts/model, the instant nerd rage from all other MEQ players would be wonderous to behold!
Honestly I don't see them as being un-playable right now though... overcosted for sure! But still, a T4/4++ unit with ap3 bolters is pretty decent, they just really need some Divination to make them shine.
Ally them into a Daemon army with 3-4+ rolls on Divination powers and suddenly they're rather silly with easy access to a 3++ and re-roll missed to-hits. Throw a level or two of Biomancy onto the Sorcerer you'll like take as the mandatory HQ plus a cheap unit of Cultists... A pretty solid unit that can aggressively take ground and hold it almost indefinitely!

I don't think they are Unplayable, heck my friend keeps on telling me to play a unit of ten of them, the problem is as you say they are over expensive, as ten men is around 500pts... that is a lot of points to be spending on one unit that, id rather spend my points on other units tbh..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 redkeyboard wrote:
In my opinion the only thing that makes them too strong for their points is the 360 degree ark of fire and the 5+ invulnerable is a bit of a pain to when all other flyers need to jink for it. if the arc of fire was limited to 180 and the template could not go behind that 180 degree ark it would be fine. Also Eldar should have battle focus. its justified in fluff and is not OP. t helps make foot viable as without it to allow to move up the board faster or into cover the guys would be blasted. T3 with 3+ 4+ or 5+ armour is incredibly easy to take down. And when you are paying between 9 and 30pts a model (although Dark Reapers should be behind an ageis anyway) you need cover and mobility to survive. Otherwise it would become a duck shoot.

I never said it was OP however I did say it was most deffo strong and maybe a little too much imo..

I would have been fine with the rule if it was only for certain squads could have it and not the majority of the army, I would have been fine with the rule said it could have been an automatic run of 3" and allowed to shoot or can do the same thing in reverse order, my problem with the one rule is that you can make a normal run move and then shoot, as which I have seen your fire dragons do, as soon as they had disembarked from a serpent then wreck one of my tanks or pour enough shots to make it utterly useless. it changed your armies playstyle very much, CSM did not have much change, but that is not the point, the point was that we got one (and just one) unit that everybody complains about, and tbh it really is not an OP unit (as with the rest of the codex) as the codex's have gone by, heck id say when the New SM codex comes out, SM players will be laughing about how they thought the drakes used to be OP.

I agree that your Helldrake is amazing (and IMO, beautiful!) and deserves a wee bit of whine because it can murder over half my entire 10-men immortal squad just like that!

BUT, it's not as OP as many people say it is. That Invul 5++ and FNP for example, is good, but isn't game breaking.

With that said, try playing with Necrons, everything you own is consided OP

 Stephanius wrote:
Actually, a smart SM player can easily negate the drake with the flamer with a Stormraven. A flamer drake can only vector strike a flier. To do that it must be able to move over you. If you get far enough to it's side or behind the drake, it cannot move over you but you can shoot it all you want.

WHAT?! Is this true? Usually the HD tactic I see is vector striking a ground transport, wrecking it and then flamer the troops.

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I agree that your Helldrake is amazing (and IMO, beautiful!) and deserves a wee bit of whine because it can murder over half my entire 10-men immortal squad just like that!

BUT, it's not as OP as many people say it is. That Invul 5++ and FNP for example, is good, but isn't game breaking.

With that said, try playing with Necrons, everything you own is consided OP

Buy some flayed ones and you wont have that problem

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I agree that your Helldrake is amazing (and IMO, beautiful!) and deserves a wee bit of whine because it can murder over half my entire 10-men immortal squad just like that!

BUT, it's not as OP as many people say it is. That Invul 5++ and FNP for example, is good, but isn't game breaking.

With that said, try playing with Necrons, everything you own is consided OP

I agree with you that the drake is not OP and tbh I honestly don't think Necrons are OP, but baring in mind I have never played against Cron Air or waithwing, I play against warrior blobs and the slow applicable advance of the horrifying hordes that are the Necrons (and the correct way to play Necrons imho )

redkeyboard wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I agree that your Helldrake is amazing (and IMO, beautiful!) and deserves a wee bit of whine because it can murder over half my entire 10-men immortal squad just like that!

BUT, it's not as OP as many people say it is. That Invul 5++ and FNP for example, is good, but isn't game breaking.

With that said, try playing with Necrons, everything you own is consided OP

Buy some flayed ones and you wont have that problem

Ugh, I could give them a chance, just for fun, if they weren't so expensive. They are just far too expensive for a unit with so much models.

happygolucky wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I agree that your Helldrake is amazing (and IMO, beautiful!) and deserves a wee bit of whine because it can murder over half my entire 10-men immortal squad just like that!

BUT, it's not as OP as many people say it is. That Invul 5++ and FNP for example, is good, but isn't game breaking.

With that said, try playing with Necrons, everything you own is consided OP

I agree with you that the drake is not OP and tbh I honestly don't think Necrons are OP, but baring in mind I have never played against Cron Air or waithwing, I play against warrior blobs and the slow applicable advance of the horrifying hordes that are the Necrons (and the correct way to play Necrons imho )

Oh, believe me, that's enough for some whine. What, you need a 5+ to ressurect your warrior?! FREAKIN' OP! I lose count of the ammount of whine I hear when I lose 5-6 immortals and I manage to ressurect one even with the Res Orb.

I admit, I don't like warriors very much after they were brutalised over and over again but I don't play Cron Air or Wraithwing. Cron Air is dumb and annoys people, Wraithwing looks cool but I'm more of a Troops fan. I love playing with 3 full squads of Immortals

But yeah, in conclusion, Helldrake is awesome, not "OMG SO FREAKING OP" awesome

 TheDraconicLord wrote:


With that said, try playing with Necrons, everything you own is consided OP

Try playing Daemons in Fantasy... Never. Living. THAT! book. Down. EVER!!!

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I

 Stephanius wrote:
A flamer drake can only vector strike a flier

WHAT?! Is this true? Usually the HD tactic I see is vector striking a ground transport, wrecking it and then flamer the troops.

Thats wrong. You can Vector Strike units on the ground with the Heldrake.

 XT-1984 wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I

 Stephanius wrote:
A flamer drake can only vector strike a flier

WHAT?! Is this true? Usually the HD tactic I see is vector striking a ground transport, wrecking it and then flamer the troops.

Thats wrong. You can Vector Strike fliers with the Heldrake.

I think its been misinterpreted. I could be wrong though. i think TheDraconicLord was saying a Bale Flamer Heldrake can only vector strike fliers as the only way of taking them down. As they cannot fire their flamer at air targets.

When my options as a BA player are to bring a Storm Raven and praying it comes in on the right turn, or try an Aegis(which for me has resulted in nothing good in terms of the Heldrake, I have reason to be annoyed. I'm almost forced to take a 200+ point model to take it out, and if I come in before it, there's a decent chance he will vector strike and kill me first.

The problem, as others have said, is a lack of a good answer. When it can go around and chew up units without any real ability to shoot it down barring a lucky shot, and is ignoring cover, it gets old.

 happygolucky wrote:

No it isn't.. it isn't at all..

Look at the rest of the Codex,

That 80% of your codex is crap doesn't justify the slowed super-unit.

I can understand the Heldrake hate because MEQ has frankly been dragged through the mud this addition, between the plethora of low AP fire available in this game, and stuff like Eldar getting army-wide pseudo-rending. MEQ pays a premium for ATSKNF and that 3+, yet they die like xenos in 6E.

Make Space Marines cost 10 points per model, then suddenly you'll see all that mariine QQ go away.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

No it isn't.. it isn't at all..

Look at the rest of the Codex,

That 80% of your codex is crap doesn't justify the slowed super-unit.

I can understand the Heldrake hate because MEQ has frankly been dragged through the mud this addition, between the plethora of low AP fire available in this game, and stuff like Eldar getting army-wide pseudo-rending. MEQ pays a premium for ATSKNF and that 3+, yet they die like xenos in 6E.

Make Space Marines cost 10 points per model, then suddenly you'll see all that mariine QQ go away.

Pay a premium? You get it for one point more then CSM (6th), who don't get that + Combat squads + Whatever chapters special rule.

 troa wrote:
When my options as a BA player are to bring a Storm Raven and praying it comes in on the right turn, or try an Aegis(which for me has resulted in nothing good in terms of the Heldrake, I have reason to be annoyed. I'm almost forced to take a 200+ point model to take it out, and if I come in before it, there's a decent chance he will vector strike and kill me first.

The problem, as others have said, is a lack of a good answer. When it can go around and chew up units without any real ability to shoot it down barring a lucky shot, and is ignoring cover, it gets old.

Stop thinking of it as a 200pts model, rather a £50 GBP model. Thn it all becomes clear.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

No it isn't.. it isn't at all..

Look at the rest of the Codex,

That 80% of your codex is crap doesn't justify the slowed super-unit.

I can understand the Heldrake hate because MEQ has frankly been dragged through the mud this addition, between the plethora of low AP fire available in this game, and stuff like Eldar getting army-wide pseudo-rending. MEQ pays a premium for ATSKNF and that 3+, yet they die like xenos in 6E.

Make Space Marines cost 10 points per model, then suddenly you'll see all that mariine QQ go away.

Pay a premium? You get it for one point more then CSM (6th), who don't get that + Combat squads + Whatever chapters special rule.

6E CSM is ass. Your point? Finish your thought, my good sir.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

No it isn't.. it isn't at all..

Look at the rest of the Codex,

That 80% of your codex is crap doesn't justify the slowed super-unit.

I can understand the Heldrake hate because MEQ has frankly been dragged through the mud this addition, between the plethora of low AP fire available in this game, and stuff like Eldar getting army-wide pseudo-rending. MEQ pays a premium for ATSKNF and that 3+, yet they die like xenos in 6E.

Make Space Marines cost 10 points per model, then suddenly you'll see all that mariine QQ go away.

Pay a premium? You get it for one point more then CSM (6th), who don't get that + Combat squads + Whatever chapters special rule.

6E CSM is ass. Your point? Finish your thought, my good sir.

Welp. I agree with you then apparently.

Still using CSM though, havn't gotten rid of my Eternal Choir yet because it's still fun at times.

The only options vanilla SMs have are:

-Allies
-Tailored army that doesn't leave transports
-Fliers

That is what makes it damage the game so much. Against a lot of factions, the Drake might be balanced, but it still ruins games for Vanilla players. (Similar to how GK could at times just shut down Demons - I'm sure that sucked too).

The ADL has a chance to take it down, but it is a very ineffective solution (str7 isn't reliable enough against AV12, and str9 gets only one non-twinlinked shot, for a very low chance of disabling it).

Most SM anti-armor are high strength, low shot count. You can't really bring enough to take out a helldrake. Its painful. Even tailoring a list to fight a hellturkey (without allies) is ineffective.

As for the Allies solution, some people like fielding mono-faction forces.

(Also note that vanilla SM cannot take Divination, so prescience is not an option)

I had thought that 6thE codexes would have sufficient AA to make the Helldrake not so bad. It looks like SM might, and Tau definitely did, but Eldar weren't really given the tools to deal with them. Giving a force something to deal with the Hellturkey makes any other air in the game so much worse.

In my opinion, the thing that broke the Heldrake is the 360 arc of fire.
Remove that, and it's merely good.

As mentioned previously, the helldrake is just such a good bargain that it is silly not to take one. It really needed to be somewhere around 190 pts (even at that cost you'd still see plenty of people rocking 2-3).

The only thing keeping me from using them is that I really dislike the model. I prefer the looks of blight drones and hellblade fighters.

Blame GW for giving you a crappy Codex. Heldrakes are pretty much the only thing propping that gak of a book up. It sucks for CSM players because they have limited options and it sucks for everybody else because they have to see 2-3 Heldrakes every game.

It just sucks all around. Thanks GW.

If it's legal, it's legal, period, just ignore them...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

No it isn't.. it isn't at all..

Look at the rest of the Codex,

That 80% of your codex is crap doesn't justify the slowed super-unit.

I can understand the Heldrake hate because MEQ has frankly been dragged through the mud this addition, between the plethora of low AP fire available in this game, and stuff like Eldar getting army-wide pseudo-rending. MEQ pays a premium for ATSKNF and that 3+, yet they die like xenos in 6E.

Make Space Marines cost 10 points per model, then suddenly you'll see all that mariine QQ go away.

Pay a premium? You get it for one point more then CSM (6th), who don't get that + Combat squads + Whatever chapters special rule.

6E CSM is ass. Your point? Finish your thought, my good sir.

Welp. I agree with you then apparently.

Still using CSM though, havn't gotten rid of my Eternal Choir yet because it's still fun at times.

I still run CSM too, trolling with Huron and Beserkers ( i did it before Aleiros made it cool).

Still, I really wish Chaos Marines had something to let them stand out from regular marines without just... having them be inferior.

Imo they should have gotten the Grey Hunters treatment. Counter attack+CCW in addition to their bolters would be excellent to show how CSM are more "brutal" and in your face than regular marines are. To contrast, I think the lack of combat squads and ATSKNF would then be fair.

I *still* want my plague terminators.

 happygolucky wrote:


I also agree that the Helldrake was OP when it was realeased and I agree that they are getting less and less OP, I am not denying that they are a strong unit, what I am denying is that they are OP as they once were.

I would argue that the Vendetta is better for its points, but I guess we all agree to disagree

Vendettas didn't kill any type of builds in 6th ed. Helldrakes make it stupid to use bikes or armies that depand on cover to protect then like foot SW or pod armies . Saying a quadgun is a counter to a helldrake is hardly true. First of all your opponent has a turn to kill the quad gun , then the quad glances on 5+ and you save on +5 with ITND . Only tau can take down helldrakes easy , but they have to gear for it . Other flyers used as anti drake ? Same thing . Let say my come after your drake . This means the drake already did damge . I have 3 las shots to get the drake down , that is of course if I survive your quadgun, one vendetta won't be enough . So I need 2 this means am already counting 2 reserv rolls vs your one and more points to counter your single flyer and all of that only works if I show up after you . Because if you show up after me you will just vector one vendetta , flame my ground troops and be safe . The helldrake is enviroment warping . But I would also like to add that it is good that chaos did get them , otherwise they would be like DAs with nothing realy good in the codex.

Makumba wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:


I also agree that the Helldrake was OP when it was realeased and I agree that they are getting less and less OP, I am not denying that they are a strong unit, what I am denying is that they are OP as they once were.

I would argue that the Vendetta is better for its points, but I guess we all agree to disagree

Vendettas didn't kill any type of builds in 6th ed. Helldrakes make it stupid to use bikes or armies that depand on cover to protect then like foot SW or pod armies . Saying a quadgun is a counter to a helldrake is hardly true. First of all your opponent has a turn to kill the quad gun , then the quad glances on 5+ and you save on +5 with ITND . Only tau can take down helldrakes easy , but they have to gear for it . Other flyers used as anti drake ? Same thing . Let say my come after your drake . This means the drake already did damge . I have 3 las shots to get the drake down , that is of course if I survive your quadgun, one vendetta won't be enough . So I need 2 this means am already counting 2 reserv rolls vs your one and more points to counter your single flyer and all of that only works if I show up after you . Because if you show up after me you will just vector one vendetta , flame my ground troops and be safe . The helldrake is enviroment warping . But I would also like to add that it is good that chaos did get them , otherwise they would be like DAs with nothing realy good in the codex.

If you brought Tanks against Vendettas your list build was killed.

Vector striking is the same as trying to harm a Helldrake with a Quad gun, it needs a 5+ to glance it, so its not easy to vector a Vendetta easily, same with its Inv and IWND they are also a 5+ so its quite hard to achieve that roll either.

Whilst I agree you have valid points, like I say it was one unit that stopped us from becoming an unsatisfactory codex, and its just every time someone whines about the unit it just grinds me, because we did not get a good codex, yet we are getting bashed constantly for one unit, and everyone think that its cool to bash CSM, I bet anyone that when the SM codex arrives we will see people laugh about how easy it is to kill a Helldrake, I guarantee it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Blame GW for giving you a crappy Codex. Heldrakes are pretty much the only thing propping that gak of a book up. It sucks for CSM players because they have limited options and it sucks for everybody else because they have to see 2-3 Heldrakes every game.

It just sucks all around. Thanks GW.

Exactly the point I was trying to get across, couldn't have worded it better myself

Like i said before people do not bash CSM as an army they bash the Heldrake as a unit and that is the only unit that gets it. And you couldn't really play tank armies in 5th vs Vendetta spam as then they could start on the board if they wanted to and they had outflank. So If you had turn one they could shoot your tanks and if they were reserved they got side or even rear Armour. So not coming on until turn 2 was kind of a positive.

The only time I played against a heldrake It stayed in reserve until turn 4.

 Stephanius wrote:
The heldrake does not fly alone, it belongs to the CSM army and should be seen in that context.

My feeling after playing quite some games for which I fielded one (1) heldrake, is that the army needs all the extra juice the drake can offer.
The heldrake may be more powerful than other fliers, but a lot of units in the dex are weaker or more expensive than loyalist counterparts.

Example: An Adeptus Sororitas player asked me if I could play without the drake against him. Isolated to the drake and him not having anti-air, that seemed resonable and I followed his request. On the other hand, his 75 or so cans with loads of melters and flamers fried everything else I could bring easily, destroying a Land Raider, Defiler and Vindicator like blow-up replicas and neatly ignored my cover saves.

I'm sure that playing against 2-3 drakes can be annoying, but note that 3 @ 525 pts is the max, compared to 6 croissants for a few points more total.

That said, the question is always what kind of game you are playing. Playing maximum cheese in a friendly game doesn't strike me like a good idea.

This.

Because of how they fit into the codex, Night Scythes are far more game-breaking than Heldrakes. Heldrakes are FA choices that don't carry troops in a codex with sub-par choices throughout. Scythes are cheaper, have an absolutely fantastic weapon, and are the safest transport in the game. And you can take them as Dedicated Transports, plus they form part of a codex that has Annihilation Barges, Doom Scythes, Imhotek, the game-breaking Mind Shackle Scarabs, etc.

The people complaining about Heldrakes have obviously never played against the Flying Bakery.

Don't really mind facing Helldrakes with any other army besides my Eldar. That codex and flying everything in general is why Tau should have just been entries in the Eldar dex, you have to take them anyway.

Vector striking is the same as trying to harm a Helldrake with a Quad gun, it needs a 5+ to glance it, so its not easy to vector a Vendetta easily, same with its Inv and IWND they are also a 5+ so its quite hard to achieve that roll either.

It is not the same . Vendettas don't have a +5inv .So the helldrake will always survive better. Also if we are both using quad guns , and I think we do, then when I enter first , then I get hit by your quad , then you vector strike and then you flame the ground troops . Vendettas don't vector strike , so if I focus on taking your helldrake down am not targeting your ground troops.

The people complaining about Heldrakes have obviously never played against the Flying Bakery.

You do know that your compering two units doing totaly different things. One is a pure aggro unit and another one transport , that happens to have an ok gun against av 11-12 ground targets that aren't a wave serpent.

Whilst I agree you have valid points, like I say it was one unit that stopped us from becoming an unsatisfactory codex, and its just every time someone whines about the unit it just grinds me, because we did not get a good codex, yet we are getting bashed constantly for one unit, and everyone think that its cool to bash CSM, I bet anyone that when the SM codex arrives we will see people laugh about how easy it is to kill a Helldrake, I guarantee it.

If you didn't have helldrakes you would be identical in game play to space wolfs.



And again I don't have anything helldrakes , but just like GK in 5th ed , they are edition warping . They invalidate any elite marine units , make bikes sucks . It is not bad for me , as I play IG , but If I were a SW or a drop pod marine player or a BA I would hate them .