Is this blog post right? have we been doing overwatch wrong?

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**Fragile**

Do we really have to have this discussion again. RAW, they are locked the moment the charging unit completes its movement and you move to the declare next charge. The opponents claim RAW is broken and have made up rules as to when Locked occurs.

**DeathReaper**

rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
nutty_nutter wrote:
the given silly points that a charging unit can only make pile in moves is overridden by p21 that states that all models in a charging unit move.

Do you have a rules quote that says that a unit that is locked in combat can make a charge move even if it is locked in combat?

Because as of right now the Locked rules are more specific and you need specific permission to override the locked condition.

Please cite the rule requiring you to check to see if the unit is locked while making a charge move. It seems like you're asserting there is one with zero evidence.

You've been asked before and never produced.

I have actually. To say otherwise is just disingenuous.

Locked is an ongoing condition that applies at any time that a unit has a model in base contact with a model from an enemy unit. (Page 23)

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
nutty_nutter wrote:
the given silly points that a charging unit can only make pile in moves is overridden by p21 that states that all models in a charging unit move.

Do you have a rules quote that says that a unit that is locked in combat can make a charge move even if it is locked in combat?

Because as of right now the Locked rules are more specific and you need specific permission to override the locked condition.

Please cite the rule requiring you to check to see if the unit is locked while making a charge move. It seems like you're asserting there is one with zero evidence.

You've been asked before and never produced.

I have actually. To say otherwise is just disingenuous.

Locked is an ongoing condition that applies at any time that a unit has a model in base contact with a model from an enemy unit. (Page 23)

Except that's not what page 23 says.
You're told explicitly when locked matters. You're ignoring that for literally no reason.

**nosferatu1001**

So youre not locked until the Fight Sub Phase then? As that is the point at which youre told to check for this condition.

**SilentScreamer**

This is how me and my brother play: A unit charges another unit, that unit then fires overwatch, regardless of whether or not the assaulting unit rolled enough charge distance, the next unit to then assault does not have overreach fired against it. I hope that helps.

**nosferatu1001**

That isnt the situaiton describe d- that is already prohibited as you can only fire overwatch once per turn.

The situation is whether you can be successfully charged yet still fire at another unit that also charges you in that phase. It comes down to when you check for "locked" - when you reach the fight subphase, or earlier.

**SilentScreamer**

I believe as soon as a unit is in a base contact assault they are locked and cannot fire overwatch at any other units that charge them that phase. Unless I'm completely missing the point of the thread?

**nosferatu1001**

So you are then compelled to follow the rule that states that you can only make pile in moves while locked, and a charge move is not a pile in move.

Meaning the first model to contact the unit "locks" them, and they must stop, as the move chargers section does not contain a specific override of the other section.

**rigeld2**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So youre not locked until the Fight Sub Phase then? As that is the point at which youre told to check for this condition.

And when you attempt to overwatch. And when you begin an attempt to move.

**nutty_nutter**

rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
nutty_nutter wrote:
the given silly points that a charging unit can only make pile in moves is overridden by p21 that states that all models in a charging unit move.

Do you have a rules quote that says that a unit that is locked in combat can make a charge move even if it is locked in combat?

Because as of right now the Locked rules are more specific and you need specific permission to override the locked condition.

Please cite the rule requiring you to check to see if the unit is locked while making a charge move. It seems like you're asserting there is one with zero evidence.

You've been asked before and never produced.

I've been asked before and never produced??? I have been at work and asleep and have only just come back to the thread now tyvm....people have lives outside of keyboard warrior forums...

in response to asking for evidence, quoting direct rules is against the forum rules. P21 regarding overwatch states you cannot make it if you are locked in combat, P23 dictates when and where you are considered locked in combat (i.e. base to base) P21 also gives the very clear description of how a charge move is performed.

you also do not enter the fight sub phase until after all charges have been condicted, this is clearly displayed on P23.

units are considered locked in combat as soon as a model makes it in base to base contact with them, this is on P23.

when I get home and get my rulebook in front of me I'll direct you to the exact paragraph entries that state this.

before you reply please do read the entries on those pages.

**nosferatu1001**

rigeld2 wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
So youre not locked until the Fight Sub Phase then? As that is the point at which youre told to check for this condition.

And when you attempt to overwatch. And when you begin an attempt to move.

Why not during a move?

**rigeld2**

nutty_nutter wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
nutty_nutter wrote:
the given silly points that a charging unit can only make pile in moves is overridden by p21 that states that all models in a charging unit move.

Do you have a rules quote that says that a unit that is locked in combat can make a charge move even if it is locked in combat?

Because as of right now the Locked rules are more specific and you need specific permission to override the locked condition.

Please cite the rule requiring you to check to see if the unit is locked while making a charge move. It seems like you're asserting there is one with zero evidence.

You've been asked before and never produced.

I've been asked before and never produced??? I have been at work and asleep and have only just come back to the thread now tyvm....people have lives outside of keyboard warrior forums...

in response to asking for evidence, quoting direct rules is against the forum rules. P21 regarding overwatch states you cannot make it if you are locked in combat, P23 dictates when and where you are considered locked in combat (i.e. base to base) P21 also gives the very clear description of how a charge move is performed.

you also do not enter the fight sub phase until after all charges have been condicted, this is clearly displayed on P23.

units are considered locked in combat as soon as a model makes it in base to base contact with them, this is on P23.

when I get home and get my rulebook in front of me I'll direct you to the exact paragraph entries that state this.

before you reply please do read the entries on those pages.

Perhaps before flying off the handle you should notice who I quoted (and therefore was responding to).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
So youre not locked until the Fight Sub Phase then? As that is the point at which youre told to check for this condition.

And when you attempt to overwatch. And when you begin an attempt to move.

Why not during a move?

Because you're not told to.

**nosferatu1001**

Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

**Kangodo**

But the text on charge-moves allows you to finish it, so I don't really see the problem..

And really, is it that hard to stay nice while discussing a rule?
You're not talking to your dog or anything.
Hint: http://www.socialskillscentral.com/free/101_Ways_Teach_Children_Social_Skills.pdf

**nutty_nutter**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

p21, overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack.

p12 under Who Can Shoot? units being locked in CC cannot shoot.

**rigeld2**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

You're not making sense.

You're saying that you're not locked until you check (the Fight Sub-phase) but that if that's not true then you're locked without checking.
Unless I'm not understanding what you mean.

You are locked when you are told to check. The information on page 23 tells you how to determine if you're locked in combat.

**DeathReaper**

rigeld2 wrote:
You are locked when you are told to check.

Incorrect, A unit is locked any time that unit has a model in base contact with an enemy. "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

This is an ongoing condition and does not stop until there are no models in base contact with enemies.

**nosferatu1001**

rigeld2 wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

You're not making sense.

You're saying that you're not locked until you check (the Fight Sub-phase) but that if that's not true then you're locked without checking.
Unless I'm not understanding what you mean.

You are locked when you are told to check. The information on page 23 tells you how to determine if you're locked in combat.

Except the actual rule for locked gives no indication you are *only* locked when told to check - it in fact states a condition (in base) and a result.

Page and graph, as requested, for your assertion that you are only locked when told to check for the condition.

**rigeld2**

DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
You are locked when you are told to check.

Incorrect, A unit is locked any time that unit has a model in base contact with an enemy. "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

This is an ongoing condition and does not stop until there are no models in base contact with enemies.

Cite permission to check for locked prior to the Fight subphase.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

You're not making sense.

You're saying that you're not locked until you check (the Fight Sub-phase) but that if that's not true then you're locked without checking.
Unless I'm not understanding what you mean.

You are locked when you are told to check. The information on page 23 tells you how to determine if you're locked in combat.

Except the actual rule for locked gives no indication you are *only* locked when told to check - it in fact states a condition (in base) and a result.

Page and graph, as requested, for your assertion that you are only locked when told to check for the condition.

Cite permission to check for locked prior to the Fight subphase.

**nosferatu1001**

Ah, slight chicken and egg situaiton
We havea rule (locked) that does not make a requirement that you are only in this state when told to check for this state, AND you meet the condition

Yet you are requiring a rule to let you check for this condition being present, despite this condition having no such requirement

Page and graph for your assertion?

**Godless-Mimicry**

Happyjew wrote:
No one is saying you are only locked in the fight sub-phase. They are saying you do not get locked until the stay of the very next fight sub-phase.

If you are not locked until the start of the next fight, then you are only locked during that fight sub-phase, and it is the same thing. It still would mean that despite being in B2B with enemies during my shooting phase that I'm not locked and thus can still shoot, and we all know you can't do that.

**nosferatu1001**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
No one is saying you are only locked in the fight sub-phase. They are saying you do not get locked until the stay of the very next fight sub-phase.

If you are not locked until the start of the next fight, then you are only locked during that fight sub-phase, and it is the same thing. It still would mean that despite being in B2B with enemies during my shooting phase that I'm not locked and thus can still shoot, and we all know you can't do that.

No, that isnt what Happy said at all. You are not locked *until*, meaning you are THEN locked. Nothing about that allows you to conclude you are ONLY locked at that point, and no furhter. Please read more carefully next time.

**rigeld2**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, slight chicken and egg situaiton
We havea rule (locked) that does not make a requirement that you are only in this state when told to check for this state, AND you meet the condition

Yet you are requiring a rule to let you check for this condition being present, despite this condition having no such requirement

Page and graph for your assertion?

Wrong way round bucko.

A rule exists explaining what locked means. You need permission to check the rule. You're trying to enforce it without referencing it.
Just like trying to use any wound allocation method without a shooting attack - you need a rule to reference it.

**Godless-Mimicry**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
No one is saying you are only locked in the fight sub-phase. They are saying you do not get locked until the stay of the very next fight sub-phase.

If you are not locked until the start of the next fight, then you are only locked during that fight sub-phase, and it is the same thing. It still would mean that despite being in B2B with enemies during my shooting phase that I'm not locked and thus can still shoot, and we all know you can't do that.

No, that isnt what Happy said at all. You are not locked *until*, meaning you are THEN locked. Nothing about that allows you to conclude you are ONLY locked at that point, and no furhter. Please read more carefully next time.

Yes, he is saying you are not locked until the next fight sub-phase, but are then locked. That is the exact same thing as saying you are not locked before the fight sub-phase. And if you are not locked before the fight sub-phase, but are once it begins, please list the phases in which you are locked; it results in only one, the fight sub-phase, so it is the same thing. You end up with the same result, so really he is saying you are only locked in the fight sub-phase. And my point is if I am not locked until the fight sub-phase, then there would be nothing to stop my guys in combat from shooting in my shooting phase, since I'm apparently not locked until the fight sub-phase, and I think this is obviously ludicrous.

Anyway, i couldn't care less anymore; reading over this thread, it is kind of a joke and looks more like a schoolyard squabble of 'he did it, she did it' than a serious discussion on rules. So much snark it's not funny.

**rigeld2**

You're reading too much into it. There's no snark (from my end at least).

**nutty_nutter**

rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
You are locked when you are told to check.

Incorrect, A unit is locked any time that unit has a model in base contact with an enemy. "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

This is an ongoing condition and does not stop until there are no models in base contact with enemies.

Cite permission to check for locked prior to the Fight subphase.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

You're not making sense.

You're saying that you're not locked until you check (the Fight Sub-phase) but that if that's not true then you're locked without checking.
Unless I'm not understanding what you mean.

You are locked when you are told to check. The information on page 23 tells you how to determine if you're locked in combat.

Except the actual rule for locked gives no indication you are *only* locked when told to check - it in fact states a condition (in base) and a result.

Page and graph, as requested, for your assertion that you are only locked when told to check for the condition.

Cite permission to check for locked prior to the Fight subphase.

Please see my earlier post....

Post 2013/08/19 17:03:34 Subject: Is this blog post right? have we been doing overwatch wrong?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

You're not making sense.

You're saying that you're not locked until you check (the Fight Sub-phase) but that if that's not true then you're locked without checking.
Unless I'm not understanding what you mean.

You are locked when you are told to check. The information on page 23 tells you how to determine if you're locked in combat.

nutty_nutter
Post 2013/08/19 16:58:33 Subject: Is this blog post right? have we been doing overwatch wrong?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

p21, overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack.

p12 under Who Can Shoot? units being locked in CC cannot shoot.

**CalgarsPimpHand**

This thread is ludicrous. By the assertions of some posters (you can only check to see if a unit is "Locked" when given explicit permission) the following occurs:

- Check at the start of the Fight Sub-phase in Player A's turn to see if a unit is Locked.
- Locked unit belonging to Player B fights hand to hand combat, wins, is no longer in base to base, but you are not given permission to check to see if a unit is still Locked
- Player B's turn begins, but still no permission to check to see if a unit is Locked. Therefore the unit's state is either still Locked, or is indeterminate. Player B's unit cannot Move or Shoot

Not that I think this one post will solve this argument, but it's such an asinine position I felt I had to comment. You are either continuously monitoring whether a unit is Locked, or you aren't and they're stuck in that state until the start of the next Fight Sub-phase. You can't have it both ways.

**rigeld2**

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
This thread is ludicrous. By the assertions of some posters (you can only check to see if a unit is "Locked" when given explicit permission) the following occurs:

- Check at the start of the Fight Sub-phase in Player A's turn to see if a unit is Locked.
- Locked unit belonging to Player B fights hand to hand combat, wins, is no longer in base to base, but you are not given permission to check to see if a unit is still Locked
- Player B's turn begins, but still no permission to check to see if a unit is Locked. Therefore the unit's state is either still Locked, or is indeterminate. Player B's unit cannot Move or Shoot

Not that I think this one post will solve this argument, but it's such an asinine position I felt I had to comment. You are either continuously monitoring whether a unit is Locked, or you aren't and they're stuck in that state until the start of the next Fight Sub-phase. You can't have it both ways.

No, that's not my position at all.
It's not a continuous effect. It's a rule that explains what locked means. You're told when to check - which means that in your example Player B would be fine.

**CalgarsPimpHand**

rigeld2 wrote:
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
This thread is ludicrous. By the assertions of some posters (you can only check to see if a unit is "Locked" when given explicit permission) the following occurs:

- Check at the start of the Fight Sub-phase in Player A's turn to see if a unit is Locked.
- Locked unit belonging to Player B fights hand to hand combat, wins, is no longer in base to base, but you are not given permission to check to see if a unit is still Locked
- Player B's turn begins, but still no permission to check to see if a unit is Locked. Therefore the unit's state is either still Locked, or is indeterminate. Player B's unit cannot Move or Shoot

Not that I think this one post will solve this argument, but it's such an asinine position I felt I had to comment. You are either continuously monitoring whether a unit is Locked, or you aren't and they're stuck in that state until the start of the next Fight Sub-phase. You can't have it both ways.

No, that's not my position at all.
It's not a continuous effect. It's a rule that explains what locked means. You're told when to check - which means that in your example Player B would be fine.

Player B would not be fine. The unit is Locked until you check and it is no longer Locked. The rules never explicitly say to check again at any later point, and the only way to know if the unit is locked or not is to literally "check" by looking. So by your logic, you mark them "Locked" when you check at the start of the Fight Sub-Phase, and you have to assume this is still true at points beyond, including during combat resolution. You're either continuously monitoring the unit's state, checking to see if they're Locked anytime you want or need to Move or Shoot, or you're putting the unit in Schrodinger's Box. Simply because the rulebook defines the phrase "locked" at the start of the relevant section, does not mean that is the ONLY time you check to see if the unit is locked.

For what it's worth, the word "locked" is actually used at the very start of the Assault Phase chapter (p 20) as an example of units disallowed from charging: "[If] The unit is already locked in close combat (see page 23)." You are clearly supposed to "check" before attempting to charge, just as you would check before attempting to move or shoot (yes even overwatch). To argue otherwise is to say that the unit gains the status "locked" at a single point in the turn, and retains it until you are allowed to check again at the next Fight Sub-Phase, which as I pointed out, breaks the entire game.

**rigeld2**

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
It is a persistent state - the unit is Locked until you check and it is no longer Locked. If you are ONLY allowed to check when given permission, you're constructing a Schrodinger's Box. You're either continuously monitoring the unit's state, checking to see if they're Locked anytime you want to Move or Shoot, or you mark them "Locked" when you check at the start of the Fight Sub-Phase and you have to assume this is still true at points beyond.

No - it's not a persistent state. You check when you're told. If they're locked when you're told to check, they're locked. If they're not, they're not. It's not that hard.