Inquisition the Game (40k Skirmish Game for late November?)

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**Fenrir Kitsune**

AegisGrimm wrote:
Especially baffling, considering they already had at least 4 examples (with many shared mechanics) of Warband Skirmish games that were fairly well received by players. They could have used mechanics from any or all of Mordheim, Necromunda, LoTR SBG or Legends of the Old West and put out a great Warband Skirmish game, but they didn't. Hopefully things will be different this time around.

Don't forget Gorkamorka! Nearly the exact same mechanics as Necromunda and Mordheim, but introduced well-balanced and functioning vehicle rules to the mix.

All GW really would have to do is release a hybrid of the Necromunda and Gorkamorka rulesets, and remove the gang theme and replace it with soldiers from warbands in the greater 40K universe, and they would have a sure-hit. Tons of people already love how those games play on the table, despite doing all of GW's work for them with ongoing support.

I'm not sure about Gorkamorka adding functioning vehcile rules. Replayed it recently and it was chart after chart after chart for the vehicles and far too much checking per shot.

**Mr. Konrad**

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
AegisGrimm wrote:
Especially baffling, considering they already had at least 4 examples (with many shared mechanics) of Warband Skirmish games that were fairly well received by players. They could have used mechanics from any or all of Mordheim, Necromunda, LoTR SBG or Legends of the Old West and put out a great Warband Skirmish game, but they didn't. Hopefully things will be different this time around.

Don't forget Gorkamorka! Nearly the exact same mechanics as Necromunda and Mordheim, but introduced well-balanced and functioning vehicle rules to the mix.

All GW really would have to do is release a hybrid of the Necromunda and Gorkamorka rulesets, and remove the gang theme and replace it with soldiers from warbands in the greater 40K universe, and they would have a sure-hit. Tons of people already love how those games play on the table, despite doing all of GW's work for them with ongoing support.

I'm not sure about Gorkamorka adding functioning vehcile rules. Replayed it recently and it was chart after chart after chart for the vehicles and far too much checking per shot.

I recently replayed it too. Gorkamorka addvehicle MAL-functioning rules. It's not a game, it's a random Orky vehicular mayhem generator. So much fun we've got a game scheduled for next month! WAAAAAAGH! CRASH! BOOM!
There is a fan-based "Inquisimunda" rules set that grafts other races into the Necromunda rules. I have a buddy who was using the Inquisimunda Ork list and I used a standard Goliath gang. Good fun too. Though I suspect that if we played a long campaign with lots of different races, odd game balance issues would crop up. The original Necromunda and Mordheim had their share of problems too.
But yeah, if GW actually pulled something like Inquisimunda off, it would be brilliant. I could play Necromunda every day, but not everyone is into the setting. "HIve Gangs? I wanna be a Space Mahreen!"

**Eilif**

AegisGrimm wrote:
Especially baffling, considering they already had at least 4 examples (with many shared mechanics) of Warband Skirmish games that were fairly well received by players. They could have used mechanics from any or all of Mordheim, Necromunda, LoTR SBG or Legends of the Old West and put out a great Warband Skirmish game, but they didn't. Hopefully things will be different this time around.

Don't forget Gorkamorka! Nearly the exact same mechanics as Necromunda and Mordheim, but introduced well-balanced and functioning vehicle rules to the mix...

...I hate to be pessimistic, but I have been with GW since the mid-90's and have seen all of their blunders.

Yeah, I should probably have mentioned Gorka. I left it off the list because even when it was out, I always just thought of it as Ork-ro-munda. As you point out, though it had it's own features, and a good sized miniatures range, so definitely bears mentioning.

I do take your point about GW's history with small games, though I actually think it's a natural choice for a company to have a few main games and a subset that only last for a number of years. Sort of like what LEGO does in that they have "Evergreen" Themes (Town, Castle, Space, etc) that are either always around or disappear and reappear periodically and they also have licensed and more experimental themes (Indiana Jones, Explorers, Atlantis) that have shorter shelf life and only one.

What surprises me is that Dreadfleet and the recent Space Hulk edition didn't capitalize on that 3-8 year lifespan that they could have had.

**Brother SRM**

Pacific wrote:
Is it pure coincidence that this is going to arrive at a similar time to Mantic's Deadzone? Also the concept would sound to be quite similar..

I'd say it's a coincidence. GW models take 18-30 months to actually come out from the time they're initially designed, so unless they were just sitting on this stuff for a long, long time, it's purely coincidence.

**Breotan**

Brother SRM wrote:
Pacific wrote:
Is it pure coincidence that this is going to arrive at a similar time to Mantic's Deadzone? Also the concept would sound to be quite similar..

I'd say it's a coincidence. GW models take 18-30 months to actually come out from the time they're initially designed, so unless they were just sitting on this stuff for a long, long time, it's purely coincidence.

And why would GW ever be concerned about Mantic? Except for people using Mantic modes as filler for WHFB games, I don't think they even show up on GW's radar.

**frozenwastes**

It used to be that no competition for GW could account for more than a percentage point of the market. Now you have companies that are comprising full percentage points of GW's revenue. Some are pulling in tons of money just in Kickstarter revenue (and then Mantic reported that 3 times as many copies of Dreadball sold through distribution than through Kickstarter. If this holds true for Deadzone...). Start adding the companies together. A couple percent for Corvus Belli and their Infinity line. Privateer is a multimillion dollar business. That's more percentage points. Flames of War and now Warlord (with their partnership with Osprey) continue to bring historicals to those who were once only sci-fi and fantasy gamers.. Renedra (a plastic tooling company made up of former GW employees) is so busy they have waiting lists.

We're no longer at a state where there's GW and a bunch of irrelevant players. As there are so many small competitors that are each now taking in a percent or two of GW's revenue that they add together into a major source of competition.

GW better pay attention to them as they are all growing and GW is just keeping pace with inflation after their price increases.

**Eilif**

frozenwastes wrote:

We're no longer at a state where there's GW and a bunch of irrelevant players. As there are so many small competitors that are each now taking in a percent or two of GW's revenue that they add together into a major source of competition.

GW better pay attention to them as they are all growing and GW is just keeping pace with inflation after their price increases.

I hadn't thought of it this way, but viewed collectively, you're right. Also, if you're correct (and I suspect you are) that all/most the other companies are growing, then it puts the situation even more into focus.

**Breotan**

I wasn't talking about Privateer Press, I was talking about Mantic. Most of those small companies you mentioned are stepping all over each other's toes as much (or even more) than on GW's. Hell, WizKids had a larger market share than Mantic and clix was crap for miniatures.

**frozenwastes**

Mantic is just another example among many of smaller model count games that are growing while 40k doesn't really.

GW is very smart to get in on the segment of the market that is growing. If this rumour is true at all.

**Some_Call_Me_Tim?**

frozenwastes wrote:
Mantic is just another example among many of smaller model count games that are growing while 40k doesn't really.

GW is very smart to get in on the segment of the market that is growing. If this rumour is true at all.

I thought Mantic was all about large model counts, especially in KoW.

~Ti,?

**timetowaste85**

Mantic is also partially made up of ex GW staff. May no be a lot of them, but when they take the ideas that work and skip the stuff that the vocal players dislike...they have nowhere to go but up. Meanwhile, GW goes...nowhere.

**Kroothawk**

This seems to fit here:

via An Anonmyous Source on Faeit 212 wrote:
Some insights into models that are coming down the track.

A:I have seen a plastic adeptus mechanicus sprue with servitors and human sized (i.e. not space marine) adepts. This definitely exists because I have seen it, so don't confuse it with my second point, although I don't know where it fits in with the release schedule.

B: for over a year I have been seeing various photos of greens, and CAD print outs - so not just concept sketches - for imperial models that are familiar to the inquisition books. I have seen custodes-style models, arco-flaggelants, and ogryn-sized servitors (greens) - as well as a pretty big tank that looks like a cross between a land raider and a leman russ, in the style of the exorcist (CAD).

it seems to have become common knowledge in circles that A) the studio has definite plans for all this, and that B) there will be a 'new' race army book at some point at the end of this edition, similar to Dark Eldar.

'like Dark Eldar' I simply meant that, from the business's perspective, Dark Eldar were a new race when they got their latest codex and models. So 'new race' doesn't necessarily mean something like Tau in 2001, and I'm fully expecting it to be an imperial faction.

A and B may be unrelated. But, based on this, I am guessing that either that this is where sisters of battle will end up, or that their relaunch will be refocused on the weirder parts of the Imperium. I just want to make it clear though, I've never seen a new sisters of battle sculpt

**Yodhrin**

Kroothawk wrote:
This seems to fit here:

via An Anonmyous Source on Faeit 212 wrote:
Some insights into models that are coming down the track.

A:I have seen a plastic adeptus mechanicus sprue with servitors and human sized (i.e. not space marine) adepts. This definitely exists because I have seen it, so don't confuse it with my second point, although I don't know where it fits in with the release schedule.

B: for over a year I have been seeing various photos of greens, and CAD print outs - so not just concept sketches - for imperial models that are familiar to the inquisition books. I have seen custodes-style models, arco-flaggelants, and ogryn-sized servitors (greens) - as well as a pretty big tank that looks like a cross between a land raider and a leman russ, in the style of the exorcist (CAD).

it seems to have become common knowledge in circles that A) the studio has definite plans for all this, and that B) there will be a 'new' race army book at some point at the end of this edition, similar to Dark Eldar.

'like Dark Eldar' I simply meant that, from the business's perspective, Dark Eldar were a new race when they got their latest codex and models. So 'new race' doesn't necessarily mean something like Tau in 2001, and I'm fully expecting it to be an imperial faction.

A and B may be unrelated. But, based on this, I am guessing that either that this is where sisters of battle will end up, or that their relaunch will be refocused on the weirder parts of the Imperium. I just want to make it clear though, I've never seen a new sisters of battle sculpt

This must be wishlisting. It must be, because if it isn't, I just mercilessly beat the last shred of optimistic anticipation out of my inner child for nothing. I will not allow myself to be excited at the idea of plastic AdMech, because it's simply too good to be true.

**darkeldarcrone**

I just want for this!! Cannot wait for more to revealed and actually buy it

**Nosebiter**

"Anonymous" source......

Ill believe this when it lands in my lap, not a second before.

**frozenwastes**

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
frozenwastes wrote:
Mantic is just another example among many of smaller model count games that are growing while 40k doesn't really.

GW is very smart to get in on the segment of the market that is growing. If this rumour is true at all.

I thought Mantic was all about large model counts, especially in KoW.

~Ti,?

They are, but their best sellers ended up being their lower model count games. Dreadball at around 10 figures per player and Deadzone around the same. So while they may have things like Kings of War that take a couple hundred figures, the demand seems to be for the smaller games.

**Da krimson barun**

frozenwastes wrote:
Space Hulk, Dreadfleet and Hobbit were all limited edition box sets. That's why.

the hobbit isn't limited edition.Well GW acts like it is....

**Pacific**

Breotan wrote:
Brother SRM wrote:
Pacific wrote:
Is it pure coincidence that this is going to arrive at a similar time to Mantic's Deadzone? Also the concept would sound to be quite similar..

I'd say it's a coincidence. GW models take 18-30 months to actually come out from the time they're initially designed, so unless they were just sitting on this stuff for a long, long time, it's purely coincidence.
And why would GW ever be concerned about Mantic? Except for people using Mantic modes as filler for WHFB games, I don't think they even show up on GW's radar.

Here is my reasoning Breotan
- Mantic is headed by ex-GW Ronnie Renton, ex GW games designers Jake Thornton and Alessio Calvatore also work for them, amongst others. They all live in and around Nottingham, and have known each other for a long time. There is a fair amount of cross over between the development guys, and even though I know GW has a hilarious level of self-importance regarding secrecy, ultimately people have to make the games and sculpt the miniatures. Iif they all know each other anyway it's not a big stretch to imagine Mantic knowing what GW has got coming down the road, or at least have more of an idea then we have.
- Some reports have the current edition of WFB not selling particularly well compared to previous incarnations or GWs other game. It might be they have done a 'reasons why' and, perhaps rightly, identified Mantics miniatures and 'unit fillers' as one of those reasons. You buy a box of zombies these days and know of both company's products, it's far more likely that you're going to go for Mantic's stuff.
- In some cases GW sit on stuff a hell of a lot longer than 18 months. Some bits are sat waiting for a release window, others may never actually be released, but there is certainly a long heads up.

The alternative explanation is that this may indeed be entirely coincidental - the idea of a sci-fi skirmish game is hardly ground-breaking, and GW and Mantic are occupying a very similar niche in terms of the miniature wargaming hobby.

**Zweischneid**

Pacific wrote:

Here is my reasoning Breotan
- Mantic is headed by ex-GW Ronnie Renton, ex GW games designers Jake Thornton and Alessio Calvatore also work for them, amongst others. They all live in and around Nottingham, and have known each other for a long time. There is a fair amount of cross over between the development guys, and even though I know GW has a hilarious level of self-importance regarding secrecy, ultimately people have to make the games and sculpt the miniatures. Iif they all know each other anyway it's not a big stretch to imagine Mantic knowing what GW has got coming down the road, or at least have more of an idea then we have.
- Some reports have the current edition of WFB not selling particularly well compared to previous incarnations or GWs other game. It might be they have done a 'reasons why' and, perhaps rightly, identified Mantics miniatures and 'unit fillers' as one of those reasons. You buy a box of zombies these days and know of both company's products, it's far more likely that you're going to go for Mantic's stuff.
- In some cases GW sit on stuff a hell of a lot longer than 18 months. Some bits are sat waiting for a release window, others may never actually be released, but there is certainly a long heads up.

The alternative explanation is that this may indeed be entirely coincidental - the idea of a sci-fi skirmish game is hardly ground-breaking, and GW and Mantic are occupying a very similar niche in terms of the miniature wargaming hobby.

Yes. But Mantic generated some US$ 3 Million in revenue in 4 Kickstarters over the last 2 years. Let's say they did three times that again outside the Kickstarters (being generous), they'll currently run some 5 to 6 Million USD in revenues a year (probably less). GW had revenues north of 200 million USD in 2012.

And most of Mantic's customers are arguably "old" hobbyists disgruntled with GW games, rather than GW's target group of "new" customers fresh into the hobby. So Mantic's profit is likely cut more from guys like Wyrd Games. If you don't know the hobby, you won't know Mantic, who sell their games/miniatures mainly in specialized online-stores and Kickstarter.

If GW identified Mantic as a reason why one of their game-lines isn't doing very well, they surely are chasing down the wrong road. Mantic simply aren't on that scale. And unlike other companies, they usually have designers, sculptors, etc. on a tight legal leash even after they leave (e.g. Rick Priestly being unable to do sci-fi for a decade or so). GW isn't gonna get robbed on the scale of ... say ... Spartan Games having one of their employees run off with their 10mm sci-fi game to create Hawk Wargames.

**Pacific**

Interesting points Zweischneid, I guess they are indeed operating on an entirely different scale.

Out of interest where did you read about Rick not being able to make sci-fi for 10 years out of GW? Amongst other stories I have heard about the reason for him leaving GW, most amusing was that he had been 'promoted' to the point where he wasn't actually doing any work

**Zweischneid**

Pacific wrote:
Interesting points Zweischneid, I guess they are indeed operating on an entirely different scale.

Out of interest where did you read about Rick not being able to make sci-fi for 10 years out of GW? Amongst other stories I have heard about the reason for him leaving GW, most amusing was that he had been 'promoted' to the point where he wasn't actually doing any work

I think it was during on of the interviews / articles for Gates of Antares (Beasts of War?). It was he himself saying he had a clause that prevented him from working on games that would be a competition to Warhammer 40K / Warhammer Fantasy, leaving him with little but the historical stuff he did with Warlord.

**frozenwastes**

That's likely not true as his participation in the Battle For Antares failed Kickstarter doesn't really make sense if he has some sort of "do not compete" agreement.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

The agreement had (finally) expired which was why he was launching Battle for Antares

**yukihyou**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
The agreement had (finally) expired which was why he was launching Battle for Antares

He was asking for allot though on that one, I looked at it and saw the Amount, thats why I never supported it..

**NAVARRO**

So September almost around the corner and still no one's really sure, consider me disappointed with these rumourmongers

I believe 4 player action hints more for a board game action rather than a regular wargame, thats my ill informed gut feeling.

**BrookM**

I think at this point we may as well lock this mostly off-topic thread and start a new one when something concrete filters through.

**Kroothawk**

NAVARRO wrote:
So September almost around the corner and still no one's really sure, consider me disappointed with these rumourmongers

For September rumours, have a look at the 158 page Space Marine thread, then come back again and express your disappointment

BrookM wrote:
I think at this point we may as well lock this mostly off-topic thread and start a new one when something concrete filters through.

I prefer not to start 5 threads on the same topic. And the Space Marine thread generates 9 pages off topic talk PER DAY, so nothing to complain about yet.

**Yodhrin**

It really would be nice to get at least vague confirmation one way or the other, although I suppose if GW actually are behind the slightly more detailed leaks of late as some have been speculating, they won't want anything taking the spotlight away from the Marines. And "plastic Blanchian Inquisition minis" would certain do that for quite a few of us.

**catharsix**

yukihyou wrote:
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
The agreement had (finally) expired which was why he was launching Battle for Antares

He was asking for allot though on that one, I looked at it and saw the Amount, thats why I never supported it..

And, despite some time having elapsed since that was cancelled, the only word we hear of that project was the one "Hansa" mini being available for purchase. The lack of fanfare on that makes it seem like they were just trying to cash in on the only bit of relatively finished work that the ill-fated project actually generated, rather than any intention to actually follow through on promises that they'd return with more concrete stuff.

**Pacific**

Rather than cast negative aspersions on Rick et al, I would say it more likely they realised the scale of the project while the KS was underway and beyond that. The Hansa miniature was already almost there, so why not release it? It was a good enough sculpt, and I can imagine people using it for any number of other games.

I think the issue behind GoS was that the scope of the project (of real time game universes, use of technology) was way beyond anything we have on the market right now, at least on the technological side of things. Warlord are a very small company, and it's possible that they didn't fully grasp the costs of developing something like that. I know Rick has some outside help with that side of things, but perhaps it wasn't fully committed?

I think you're right though, from looking at the state of the official forum, and the lack of new developments, the project is obviously dead for the time being. Perhaps though it has not been entirely wasted - as was the case early in his career, where Rick was the brains behind so many of the gaming concepts that millions of people have enjoyed over the years, someone else will pick up on his ideas for GoW (which I still think were fantastic) and have the will and means to realise some of those ideas in their own games..