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So I've recently started playing in a friendly league with a few friends playing Tau, Necrons and Tyranids. So far I have been pretty successful against Tau and Necron (I think this is more due to our collective inexperience rather than being bad armies) but we all seem to struggle against the Tyranid player. He has been playing with 2 Tervigon and then a selection of Tyrant, Hive Guard, Zoanthropes and the dreaded Doom.

I would like some advice as to which CSM units people have had success with against Tyranid armies - our games are played in the 500-1000 point range depending on how much time we have of an evening. I've been running with Cultists due to their cheapness but as I'm sure you are aware they die very quickly so I'm thinking of upgrading to Marines as Troops.

If anyone has any proven units/tactics against these vile Xenos I would be very pleased to hear about them.

in that small a pt game, his line up consist almost entirely of MC's. Cultist are worthless here. A 5 man CSM squad with a plas or melta might do some damage. A 10 man squad with a Heavy Weapon can do better.

Flying DP and Helturkey both have the advantage of being hard for nids to drop (flyers). 4x Autocannon Havocs can keep a Flyrant on the ground.

Other options, your helbrutes are dirt cheap platforms, and so are preds. grab 1-2 of each at ~100 pts each to drop MC and be immune to the swarm creatures. Termicide units with plasma can pop them okay.

Sorry I should have mentioned that due to my Heldrake and the Necrons Doom flyers we have agreed that all units for the time being will be ground units.

I agree on the Pred front - I haven't gone that way before but feel it's going to be the best way to get the range I am looking for.

As far as the Heavy Weapon for the troops would you recommend the ML? LCs seem a tad too expensive and the ML at least can also offer the frag option which is a blast to maybe take out some of his scoring troops?

Bring a dakkafiend, that many autocannon shots should reek havoc on Nids.

I took a Forgefiend to my first game (partly because I liked the idea of that many shots - but mainly because the model looks really nice). I don't know if it was just an unlucky day for me with the dice but I hardly seemed to be hitting anything. Part of the reason I was thinking Pred was the higher BS

Heres the main problem I always find myself having, when fighting a good Nid player.

MC spam, especially Terv spam, is simply a pain in the rear if you dont have plague marines to Poison 4+ them down in melee... and expect to lose a lot of them that way...

Once a Terv (or rather, all the tervs, because of the stupid 6th ED rules for nids getting 2x the rolls on charts in the BRB for their Psyker powers) Get Iron Arm, they become t7-9 beasts and simply speaking, pushing wounds on them becomes completely ineffective when you have to factor in killing the gaunts they spawn, before they get to you in CC and lock your shooti up.

The best thing I have found for this, is to take a minimum of 2 drakes for any troop choice they decide to bring, solely, dedicated Nid roasters, while trying to position the template to take random shots at other models as well as hitting their squads of gaunts is the best method of murder I have been able to competitively muster in my roughly 60 games played against my friends Nids.

The other method of killing the MC spam tactic is simply taking Noise Marines, and the gloriously cheap tri-las predator CSM have at their disposal. for 261 points a squad, you can take 7 Noise Marines with sonic blasters, 2 Blast masters and a naked Champion of Chaos to lead them, each shooting 3 shots stationary at 24" basically cutting down nid troops, and the Blast Master laying the hurt on anything up to 48" away, all while ignoring cover.

Tri Las Predators cost 140 points. Which should adverage out 1-2 wounds per tank on a Terv per turn... If you don't like the chances, Proxi in 3 Vindicators, and Laugh, because str 10 is still wounding on 3+ most of the time on most of those buffed Nids and its a Large Blast, sure it's only 24" range, but that should be enough for you to manage...

Another hilarious method of dealing with them is taking Daemon allies and using Nugle ANYTHING. I use a greater unclean one for giggles and the bloody thing pretty much, devours Nid creatures all day long, and usually farts out more noxious gasses straight back at them! Roll on biomancy and laugh as your T10 Great Unclean One (That is, if you get Iron Arm) Slowly, walks along and digests multiple nids.

Thanks for all the info there Golioth - it's nice to see I'm not the only one having problems facing Nids!

The Heldrake is something I will have to wait for though - we have all agreed no flying units for the time being. Well - when I say we all did, the Tau and Nids player (not really having many flying options) deemed it so and myself and the Necrons player had to go along. Though to be honest on thinking about it by agreeing we have effectively ruled out very strong units for ourselves whilst still allowing the Nids and Tau armies to field their strongest units! Hmmmm!

Haven't looked at the Noise Marines before and I am liking the look of their weaponry. The only thing I would question would be how do I get 2 blastmasters in that 261 point bracket you mentioned as it looks like you can only have 1 blastmaster per 10 models. Unless im missing something of course.

Which brings me to the Predator - which is most likely the way I will go to be honest. I don't own any tank models at the moment but we are allowing proxy units so I can see how they fare before splashing the cash.

Cheers for the suggestions!

GoliothOnline wrote:
the stupid 6th ED rules for nids getting 2x the rolls on charts in the BRB for their Psyker powers

I'm very certain this rule does not exist, Tyranids only get as many rolls equal to the amount they exchange, which for Tervigons is 1 base, 2 or 3 if the player pays the points for more powers.

The weaknesses of Tyranid MCs:
- They only get 6" movement (apart from FMCs, which you won't be playing against) and most don't have Fleet
- nearly exclusively 3+ saves
- No invulnerable saves
- no good shooting beyond 18" range
- Tervigons are quiet weak offensively, having low WS, BS, number of attacks, and Initiative
- generally low number of attacks
- Without Iron Arm, even lasguns can take them down with enough shots
- Special rules: Poison, Fleshbane, Instant Death (again, unless they have Iron Arm)
- Only the Swarmlord has a better than 50% chance of getting Iron Arm.

Hope that helps, at that low points range it can be difficult to deal with 2 Tervigons with a TAC list if you don't play Dark Eldar.

Yes some matchups are unbalanced; that's the way it's always going to be when a game has different teams with different strengths and weaknesses. I have no idea why the Tau guy is complaining about flyers; they can eat them up and spit them out before you can say "there go all my points..."
And 'Nids win at ground play, so of course they lack anything in the way of air superiority. You and your Necron pal are definitely playing with a handicap. Not to say flyers are the be-all end-all, just that if you've been penalized, why do the Tau and 'Nid get to run anything they choose? Either bring flyers back into the mix, or demand a fair handicap and remove a powerful unit from each of their lists to compensate.

Now, on to the grind. Noise Marines are definitely effective vs 'Nids, and Plagues. Check the errata/FAQ on the Games Workshop website for info on how to get 2xblastmaster in a unit. And make sure everyone else is reading and using the errata'd rules too.

Las pred is good (my fav is sniping out the Doom first turn), but the Vindicator saves you points and can hit more targets; even scatter isn't an issue on a S10 large blast. I'm a fan of the Forgefiend myself, have you tried using the ectoplasma cannons yet?

One of the important things is to goad your opponent into making mistakes, then capitalize on them. Obviously do your best to make sure all of your units have escape routes they can back up while firing on the approaching xenos. The longer you keep them out of CC, the more you win. If he ever leaves anything out of Synapse range, fire it down and watch 'em run. You still get to kill models, and even if you don't flatten units you take them out of the action for at least a turn.

Agree on the flying handicap we now both have - maybe we shouldn't have had all those beers before agreeing to that one

All your advice is much appreciated guys - thanks for it all. I've tried coming up with a list that can cope with MC and Nids troops, but at the same time trying to stay competitive against the other 2 armies. This is what I've got so far - I believe I still have around 30 points to spend after all this :

Sorcerer Lvl 2, SoC

10 CSM, 1 Plasma and 1 ML

10 CSM, 1 Plasma and 1 ML

AC/LC Predator, Havoc, Warpflame Gargoyles

AC/LC Predator, Havoc, Warpflame Gargoyles


Based on what you have said I will do a bit of research about the Noise Marines, if I went that way I would swap the Sorc for a Lord and give him MoS to make them troops.

I don't know if the no Flyer thing is that much of a disadvantage, Flying Hive Tyrants are quite powerful at low points, even if a bit pricey.

I was about to open a similar topic then I saw this one so I will add my questions to it.

I just got back into playing, last time I played was in 5th edition so I'm not familiar with the "new" CSM. I played against a friend who had Tyranids and he used a similar setup as described above: 2 Tervigons to spam Termagants. He also uses those shooty nids who ignore cover and use indirect fire. Also he spams monstrous creatures, in my case some of them flying (2 Hive Tyrant with wings I think). Buffed up to 7-9 strength/toughness they zoomed right through to kill my vindicator and forge fiend in close combat and then smashed through 2 full squads of CSM.

I'm at a complete loss about what to pick against him. Abaddon didn't work, he did some damage but then got killed quickly by a T8 hive tyrant. Generally I had the impression that even with some high strength shots I couldn't do enough damage. Sure, I can have a Land Raider, Vindicator and Heldrake shoot at one Tyrant or Tervigon. But in more cases than not even that does not kill off one of those MCs in one round since they have 6 friggin wounds... And in the next round I get shot at by some Trygon with 12 S6 shots or smashed in close combat by a S9 monster.

Surprisingly there was one thing that worked out well. I had a squad of 8 Terminators with power fists. Those deep striked in and managed to kill the 2 Tervigons in 2 rounds.

My vanilla CSM didn't do anything at all. At best their heavy weapon fired in one or two rounds then they got obliterated (mostly in a sweeping advance after losing the close combat by about 4 wounds).

At the moment I have the following ideas for the next match:
- Take Typhus and make my cultists zombies with FNP and fearless. That way I can hold objectives more cheaply since the CSM didn't do anything and put the points in heavier stuff. Also Typhus has a force weapon which could kill those W6 MCs in one unsaved wound.
- Take multiple Chaos Lords with terminator armor and power fist or something. That way I can put them in units and if they get attacked in cc I challenge the Tyranid MC and have a chance to kill it since the lord got S8, 3 wounds and a 2+ save. Also taking a Mark of Nurgle will give him T5 and allow me to have 5 man Plague Marine Squads with 2 Plasma Guns that score. Could help with Nids cause of 4 S7 shots as well.
- I will try out Fabius Bile since his Rod of Torment has Instant Death. Maybe put him in a unit to protect him.
- Not sure if this one works, but maybe Zerkers of Khorne could do something. With S5 when charging and dishing out like 50 attacks it might just work due to high numbers.

Or you could equip a walking daemon prince with the black mace as it always wounds on a 2+.

On one hand it's good that i'm not the only CSM player to have a tough time against Nids but on the other it's a bad sign that they seem so tricky to play against. The problem I foresee looking at everyone's responses are that Tervigons are relatively cheap when you compare against the combined cost of anti-Tervigon units! And so far I'm only facing 2, looking at the force org chart wouldn't it be possible for a Nid player to take a maximum of 5 (2 HQ and 3 Troops)? And yeah those Hive Guard always seem to be hidden behind the Tervigons and yet can shoot without LoS - nasty combination! Have to admit that I thought out of the 4 of our armies they would be easiest to play against - how wrong I was!

I like the DS Termicide squad idea - but if we are playing a 500 point game they would represent a fair chunk of my army, whereas he can still field 2 Tervigons!

I hate to say it but the no flyer rule is very hard on Chaos.
We have a subpar codex with 1-3 standout units of which the Heldrake is the foremost.
I don't like it but it's the truth at the moment.

That being said, focusing on the cheapish fire support options we get is workable. Most choices from HS are good and BM NM behind cultist screens work well.

So other than the Heldrake what are the other standout units you are thinking of there?

RedRoss83 wrote:
So other than the Heldrake what are the other standout units you are thinking of there?

Noise Marines and/or Plague Marines.
Oblits or Havocs.
Biker HQs with Bikers or Spawn.

Many of these compete with each other for FOC slots so it's a challenge to pick just one.

I seriously cannot believe I am suggesting this:
Warp Talons with MoK and Icon. Oh God I said it. By the Ruinous Powers, my fingers are bleeding for that.

They have LC's, rage, and furious charge so they should get a decent number of wounds and a save (if only a 5++) against the AP2. They are hugely expensive but will hopefully remove any problems that you are having taking out some of the MCs.

For heavies, I might suggest some Missile Launcher Havocs instead of Lascannons. They can frag the hordes and krak the MCs too, instead of only being good at dropping big things.

General Duf wrote:
I seriously cannot believe I am suggesting this:
Warp Talons with MoK and Icon. Oh God I said it. By the Ruinous Powers, my fingers are bleeding for that.

They have LC's, rage, and furious charge so they should get a decent number of wounds and a save (if only a 5++) against the AP2. They are hugely expensive but will hopefully remove any problems that you are having taking out some of the MCs.

For heavies, I might suggest some Missile Launcher Havocs instead of Lascannons. They can frag the hordes and krak the MCs too, instead of only being good at dropping big things.

warp talons cannot take icons.....

Lots of great ideas cheers guys.

So many units I haven't tried out yet. I really like the idea of Obliterators as a bit of a swiss-army-knife unit, high strength weapons for the big guys but also things like flamers and reapers for killing lots of troops. Would you recommend taking these instead of the Preds? Reason I was staying away from them is the Nids player not only has an affinity for all these big MCs but also the Doom which has ended up literally sucking the life out of plenty of my infantry units and I'd hate to see a unit as expensive as the Obliterators falling prey to this rather annoying tactic

 Exergy wrote:

General Duf wrote:
I seriously cannot believe I am suggesting this:
Warp Talons with MoK and Icon. Oh God I said it. By the Ruinous Powers, my fingers are bleeding for that.

They have LC's, rage, and furious charge so they should get a decent number of wounds and a save (if only a 5++) against the AP2. They are hugely expensive but will hopefully remove any problems that you are having taking out some of the MCs.

For heavies, I might suggest some Missile Launcher Havocs instead of Lascannons. They can frag the hordes and krak the MCs too, instead of only being good at dropping big things.

warp talons cannot take icons.....

Sorry I always get the rules fro them and Raptors crossed in my head

RedRoss83 wrote:
Lots of great ideas cheers guys.

So many units I haven't tried out yet. I really like the idea of Obliterators as a bit of a swiss-army-knife unit, high strength weapons for the big guys but also things like flamers and reapers for killing lots of troops. Would you recommend taking these instead of the Preds? Reason I was staying away from them is the Nids player not only has an affinity for all these big MCs but also the Doom which has ended up literally sucking the life out of plenty of my infantry units and I'd hate to see a unit as expensive as the Obliterators falling prey to this rather annoying tactic

Obliterators worked, but not very well in my last 2 games vs Nids. The problem is that it's either a medium amount of shots having problems with high toughness or a low amount of shots. You can have S7 plasma shots cheaper by taking Plague Marines and if you take Lascannons you only have 3 shots for 225 points which is a bit underwhelming. I often take Obliterators cause they can fix many situations. But against nids it doesn't fix my problem of having too few shots of S6 or higher. I will try out taking three 5 man squads of Plague Marines along with a Nurgle Chaos Lord. This will give me 12 S7 shots on scoring units with FNP and poisoned melee attacks which should at least hurt when a Hive Tyrant attacks them. Also I thought about taking a Maulerfiend with Lasher Tendrils which I could keep in range of my important units.

As a Tyranid player...if it doesnt have lascannons or missile launchers I am not afraid of it.

Don't try to win combat unless you've brought real daemons.

 ductvader wrote:
As a Tyranid player...if it doesnt have lascannons or missile launchers I am not afraid of it.

Don't try to win combat unless you've brought real daemons.

Or PF/SS Terminators, those can be pretty nasty to Tervigons if they manage to get into combat.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
As a Tyranid player...if it doesnt have lascannons or missile launchers I am not afraid of it.

Don't try to win combat unless you've brought real daemons.

Or PF/SS Terminators, those can be pretty nasty to Tervigons if they manage to get into combat.

Yeah... but Chaos doesn't have Storm Shields...

Ok, as a Nid player, LasPreds are good, Heldrakes are good, a Chaos Lord of Nurgle with Black Mace would be good. Don't rely much on High T, as we have Poison all over.

 jifel wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
As a Tyranid player...if it doesnt have lascannons or missile launchers I am not afraid of it.

Don't try to win combat unless you've brought real daemons.

Or PF/SS Terminators, those can be pretty nasty to Tervigons if they manage to get into combat.

Yeah... but Chaos doesn't have Storm Shields...

So that's why I've never seen a Chaos Storm Shield. Were Storm Shields introduced after the Horus Heresy, or do GW just want to deny them to Chaos like they do Drop-pods?

I don't advocate the use of autocannons against tyranids a guy with an autocannon trying to take down An MC is similar to a fire warrior trying to take down 4 Space Marines...and then factor in iron arm and endurance.

Get the S8+ stuff because we have loads of multiwound T4 stuff as well.

And nurgle means D*** because poison is cheap and we'll drown you in it.

The Las Pred is the best idea I have seen listed here...it'll get 3+ turns of shooting most likely and it'll shear wounds off of bugs.

Missile Havocs could do well too...but they'll get 2-3 turns before being consumed...don't try to frag the small bugs...it just tickles us when you don't blast the big uns.

Storm shields were around during the HH. We dont get them because GW hates us.

Always great waking up and seeing lots of useful input to a post

I'm seeing much love for the LC Pred - so how do you think the following would fare, is it overkill?

Sorcerer Lvl 2, Spell Familiar
10 CSM, 1 Flamer, 1 ML, VotLW
10 Cultists, Autoguns
Tri-Las Pred
Tri-Las Pred
Tri-Las Pred

Careful with that Sorc; I love me my Sorcerers, but with Shadows in the Warp you'll likely be melting nothing but your own brain.
Trying to beat Ld on 3d6 blows.