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 Bobthehero wrote:
Ah hell not that gak again...

Imperial Guardsmen use Orks weapon often, they're unreliable and pretty beat up but they'll work better than nothing

Their psychic thing makes thing works better, but not transform a wooden stick into a power weapon or make Zurglurb the Irrevelant ork boy invincible because he thinks he is

Citation? The Orks own codex says that their belief makes the guns work and that they wouldn't work otherwise. I've never heard of a Guardsmsn using a Shoota. (Besides, wouldn't a shoota break the Guardsman's shoulder?)

 Kain wrote:

Except Chaos has existed for less than forty thousand years and the Orks have existed for over sixty million.

And Chaos is primarily fueled by humanity which is drastically outnumbered by Ork kind.

I am not sure how what you wrote actually contradicts anything I just said.

Also, the Orks explicitly power Khorne. Page 11 of current Chaos codex.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Except Chaos has existed for less than forty thousand years and the Orks have existed for over sixty million.

And Chaos is primarily fueled by humanity which is drastically outnumbered by Ork kind.

I am not sure how what you wrote actually contradicts anything I just said.

Also, the Orks explicitly power Khorne. Page 11 of current Chaos codex.

It's not rewriting history because Gork and Mork predate any of the big four by sixty million years and have drawn on the power of the most successful species in the galaxy for all of it, they've been the most powerful because their chosen ones outnumber everyone else combined. Humanity hasn't even been relevant until the Dark age of tech.

In the warp, I highly doubt that the Gods suffer injuries the same way. Even if Gork and Mork beat the crap out of and ate Nurgle, he would likely still survive as he is just a reflection of the Despair in the galaxy, it'd be like nuking a Hurricane, you'd still it for a while but the conditions that started it are still there so it would return fairly shortly.

Ork emotions may fuel Khorne slightly, but the entirety of the Ork gestalt field and worship solely powers Gork and Mork, and the gestalt field is easily the most potent aspect of Ork kind, along with sheer numbers.

Also, let's take a look at the other gods quote and list who else is around.

Isha, who is a prisoner of nurgle and wouldn't be getting into fights anyway.

Cegorach who is hiding in the webway and only pops out to bop Slaanesh in the nose.

Khaine who is in a million pieces.

The Emperor who is already established as Gork and Mork's inferior given that their stirring in the warp caused his barely living corpse to actually open it's eyes in fear. .

And a handful of minor Chaos gods, some of which are little above daemon princes and given how Phil Kelly disregarded prior fluff about the Word Bearers being a unified legion I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt that he actually knows about any of them, and even then, what kind of minor god would pick a fight with the embodiments of the most successful species in the galaxy?

Logically we can infer that they were referring to the big four.

Not exactly sure what your problem is with the embodiments of Black comedy and Slapstick being stronger than the SRSBSNS Gods.

Especially since said gods can't even contain a Grey Knight mucking about in their realm.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Except Chaos has existed for less than forty thousand years and the Orks have existed for over sixty million.

And Chaos is primarily fueled by humanity which is drastically outnumbered by Ork kind.

I am not sure how what you wrote actually contradicts anything I just said.

Also, the Orks explicitly power Khorne. Page 11 of current Chaos codex.

Quote pls.

I don't have the current chaos dex.

Hive mind.

I would say Sly Marbo.
Srsly.

OT: In all this fighting about Gork+Mork, the basic crux of the matter is that Orks believe them to be the most powerful, so they are.
Yeah-No. I don't buy that, and Orks will still power up Khorne, due to the fact that...they're fighting SOMEONE and I think it says somewhere that all fights make the big K happy.
Also, it's possible that G+M are different kinds of god, as they seem to be a non-living embodiment of a culture, a style of life, whereas the Chaos gods are emotions gone wild.
Also pretty much every single ork believes himself to be invincible, but the very existence of Yarrick proves that to be false.
My honest opinion is probably the very idea of the warp itself, as it seems to be a big mix of emotions, with the gods being forms of them.
So yeah. Vagueness ftw.

ork belief relies on massed number of orks believing it - one ork says he's invincible, the orks around him will shoot him to see if he is, and laugh 'cos he's not.

ghazkhulls meteoric rise to power probably had some boost as more orks believed in him as the biggest, baddest ork around - he probably got fractionally larger than if he'd somehow gained the power under the radar.

ork weapons, they are unreliable and work much less effectively if it's not an ork that's using them, but they do work, and work better for orks because all da orks believe that shootas shoot. if a mek comes up with a new invention, and all da orks around fink it'll explode, the mek's probably going to die. so the meks big-up their inventions to the point where all da orks are gathering to see it work, believing it'll work.

no doubt orks fuel khorne, but only so much as bloodshed, not for hatred & anger, they probably fuel nurgle more than khorne during a WAAAGH! as they are having an exceptionally fun time doing it, and nurgle is the embodiment of disease and happiness.

i'll also agree with inky that gork and mork are fed by more than just emotions, and to be fair i think orks lack complex emotions, they'll get happy and sad and angry as it suits them, but they're not lingering. the most orks will do is hold a grudge. so gork n mork are fed through ork psychic resonance more than emotion - as long as da orks are da orks, da ork gods will be there to wander grumpily through the warp getting in the way of all the smaller gods schemes. I think it's a case of gork and mork are the most powerful, but not the most dangerous (they couldn't care less about attacking outside the warp, there's orks to do that for 'em!)

 Bobthehero wrote:
Ah hell not that gak again...

Imperial Guardsmen use Orks weapon often, they're unreliable and pretty beat up but they'll work better than nothing

Their psychic thing makes thing works better, but not transform a wooden stick into a power weapon or make Zurglurb the Irrevelant ork boy invincible because he thinks he is

lol was more of a joke answer to be honest that's why I put a 2nd one bout them all being equal at the bottom

If Gork and Mork hypothetically are the most powerful, I'd say chances are higher of it being due to the sheer number of Orks, not the Orks' belief manifesting as reality.

(although it's possible the two stem from the same source. Faith and belief have always been able to bend the warp in WH40k, which bleeds into reality here and there, and in some interpretations, Faith bends reality itself in large enough numbers. Therefore, it's possible that the Orks warp reality due to their sheer numbers of believers AND Gork and Mork are the most powerful due to the Orks' sheer numbers. However, that Gork and Mork would be the most powerful due to the Orks' power to bend reality would be wrong in this hypothetical case, even if the two stem from the same source)


Me personally, even before seeing all this hullabaloo about Gork and Mork being the most powerful came up on forums, I always felt Gork and Mork might have been the most powerful in terms of direct power but lacked direction. So they'd go and punch out Nurgle one day but then they'd leave leaving Nurgle to brush himself off and say "How rude!" (instead of try to conquer Nurgle's territory. They'd also be unable to finish Nurgle off, at least without any concerted drawn-out effort which they can't be bothered to give, because actually perma-killing a god is ridiculously difficult)

It's also stated that Gork and Mork reincarnate when they get killed, just like Orks do (according to Orkish belief), so presumably Gork and Mork do lose every once in a while.

.....though I suppose that's just personal belief. Did we get a word-for-word citation of the Nurgle and Khorne incidents with Gork and Mork? That last "citation" of the Nurgle one was a paraphrase, I think.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Ah hell not that gak again...

Imperial Guardsmen use Orks weapon often, they're unreliable and pretty beat up but they'll work better than nothing

Their psychic thing makes thing works better, but not transform a wooden stick into a power weapon or make Zurglurb the Irrevelant ork boy invincible because he thinks he is

Citation? The Orks own codex says that their belief makes the guns work and that they wouldn't work otherwise. I've never heard of a Guardsmsn using a Shoota. (Besides, wouldn't a shoota break the Guardsman's shoulder?)

Ciaphas Cain books, civilians use the Ork weapons, Death World, where Catachan use the guns in a pinch.

Hell about half the books of the IG has the human use Ork weapon in a pinch. The worst that happens is that they're unreliable.

I think it's a competition.

In the background of each army there are at least one powerful being, if not multiple.

It would be a competition between all these, however the hive mind does seem pretty powerful.

Necroes wrote:
I'd say it's variant; After all, the necron cryptek manning the Celestial Orrery probably needs to take a break at least every hundred years or so.

Why is he stronger than everyone else? Because he can blow up stars... He is morally opposed to it, but he Can.

Why does that make him stronger?

Blow up ALL stars: Necrons are unaffected, every other race in the galaxy dies, except Tyranids, who would then likely just move on to the next galaxy anyway.

Emporer? No more psykers to power him, he goes poof.

Chaos Gods? (Including Human, Eldar, and Ork) No more non-necrons to power them, they go poof.

C'tan? The necrons Already beat them. They still have no reason to do so again.

Honestly, Necrons still hold the position as the ultimate super-power within the 40K universe... they just refuse to use it, for reasons of morality, and that's only the group currently in control of said power. They get taken out by another faction, and suddenly life stops being a thing in warhammer 40k.

And all of this is coming from a Tau player, so don't think I'm just routing for the home team here.

I fail to see how the Necrons are going to survive all the stars blowing up.

The rulebook says on page 144;
"Warp space is not an empty void, but an infinite and incomprehensible realm inhabited by many strange entities, the most powerful and dangerous of which are the four Great Gods of Chaos - Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh"
Not much room left for interpreting G&M to be the most powerful after that.

 illuknisaa wrote:
Quote pls.

I don't have the current chaos dex.

I think he means;
"The galaxy knows no peace, and Khorne has grown powerful indeed. Uncounted worlds resound with the clamour of battle, every scream and death rattle a small devotion to his glory. With each new dawn, ichor mingles with blood on a million battlefronts, each massacre and cataclysm fresh meat for the Lord of Battle's table. Eldar and human, Daemon and Ork, Tyranid and Tau; all are gore-splattered playthings dancing for Khorne's personal gratification."
It goes on further to talk about how he's taken to having a bunch of Orks fighting outside his fortress forever.

Animus wrote:
The rulebook says on page 144;
"Warp space is not an empty void, but an infinite and incomprehensible realm inhabited by many strange entities, the most powerful and dangerous of which are the four Great Gods of Chaos - Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh"
Not much room left for interpreting G&M to be the most powerful after that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

It's not rewriting history because Gork and Mork predate any of the big four by sixty million years and have drawn on the power of the most successful species in the galaxy for all of it, they've been the most powerful because their chosen ones outnumber everyone else combined. Humanity hasn't even been relevant until the Dark age of tech.

I truly have no idea why you are bringing this up or how it is relevant to what I said, to be honest.

Also, can you actually, you know, prove that the Orks outnumber the myriad races of the galaxy combined (With the exception of the Tyranids and the Necrons, who by their very nature can't fuel Chaos).

In the warp, I highly doubt that the Gods suffer injuries the same way. Even if Gork and Mork beat the crap out of and ate Nurgle, he would likely still survive as he is just a reflection of the Despair in the galaxy, it'd be like nuking a Hurricane, you'd still it for a while but the conditions that started it are still there so it would return fairly shortly.

The story is explicitly referred to as a myth. An allegory.

Ork emotions may fuel Khorne slightly, but the entirety of the Ork gestalt field and worship solely powers Gork and Mork, and the gestalt field is easily the most potent aspect of Ork kind, along with sheer numbers.

"Slightly"? They are officially Khorne's favorite species for the amount they fuel him.

Also, let's take a look at the other gods quote and list who else is around.

Isha, who is a prisoner of nurgle and wouldn't be getting into fights anyway.

Cegorach who is hiding in the webway and only pops out to bop Slaanesh in the nose.

Khaine who is in a million pieces.

The Emperor who is already established as Gork and Mork's inferior given that their stirring in the warp caused his barely living corpse to actually open it's eyes in fear. .

And a handful of minor Chaos gods, some of which are little above daemon princes and given how Phil Kelly disregarded prior fluff about the Word Bearers being a unified legion I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt that he actually knows about any of them, and even then, what kind of minor god would pick a fight with the embodiments of the most successful species in the galaxy?

Logically we can infer that they were referring to the big four.

This is all rendered moot by the quote in the official rulebook signifying the Chaos Gods as the most powerful beings in the Warp, which Animus was kind enough to save me the trouble of finding. I thought such a quote existed, but was not sure where.

Not exactly sure what your problem is with the embodiments of Black comedy and Slapstick being stronger than the SRSBSNS Gods.

Especially since said gods can't even contain a Grey Knight mucking about in their realm.

My "problem", lol?

I used to believe Gork and Mork were the strongest too, until further evidence swayed me from that opinion. I've been an Ork fan longer than I have Chaos.

I don't care which of the Warp gods is the strongest, because at the end of the day, all are but meager whelps compared to the awesome strength of the mighty Mag'ladroth.

Animus wrote:
The rulebook says on page 144;
"Warp space is not an empty void, but an infinite and incomprehensible realm inhabited by many strange entities, the most powerful and dangerous of which are the four Great Gods of Chaos - Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh"
Not much room left for interpreting G&M to be the most powerful after that.

Gork and Mork specifically don't give at turd about the warp They prefer bottlecaps and pointy sticks. More powerful probably, but by far less ambitious, They prefer to scheme about which of the two can punt a star farther

So now Gork and Mork don't reside within the Warp huh?

I didnt say that now did I? They can very well reside in the warp, or in realspace, or in the collective Waagh gestalt, or even in a salt shaker if they think there's a good fight up in there.

They just don't care. The chaos gods want to spread the imaterium through the universe, the void dragon wanted to eat the stars, the old ones wanted to nurture and develop the young races of the galaxy, but Gork and Mork don't care about any of it.

'Waagh! the orks' mentions that they regularly fight with the chaos gods and that they just laugh during; And even if they did manage to get a good smack down, they're Orks. They'd just run away, build a bigger pointier stick, and hit whoever 'beat' in the gonads with it in some sneak attack and say that they won then.

And fair enough about wanting a quote from a book that doesn't mention 'legend' or 'mythos', but by the same token, are there mentions of literal throw downs between the other chaos gods? I was under the impression that they tended to act through their demons and the like.

Also, heads up, but the quote from Waagh the orks, that mentions 'Myth' re-appears in the most current codex on page 15, with the 'This is a myth' part redacted.

 davou wrote:
I didnt say that now did I? They can very well reside in the warp, or in realspace, or in the collective Waagh gestalt, or even in a salt shaker if they think there's a good fight up in there.

They just don't care. The chaos gods want to spread the imaterium through the universe, the void dragon wanted to eat the stars, the old ones wanted to nurture and develop the young races of the galaxy, but Gork and Mork don't care about any of it.

'Waagh! the orks' mentions that they regularly fight with the chaos gods and that they just laugh during; And even if they did manage to get a good smack down, they're Orks. They'd just run away, build a bigger pointier stick, and hit whoever 'beat' in the gonads with it in some sneak attack and say that they won then.

And fair enough about wanting a quote from a book that doesn't mention 'legend' or 'mythos', but by the same token, are there mentions of literal throw downs between the other chaos gods? I was under the impression that they tended to act through their demons and the like.

Also, heads up, but the quote from Waagh the orks, that mentions 'Myth' re-appears in the most current codex on page 15, with the 'This is a myth' part redacted.

Which quote are you talking about?

Not the one I addressed with Kain surely (The one with Nurgle), since that quote does not in fact appear on page 15 of the Ork codex.

What page 15 of the Ork codex does state however is that the Ork gods are explicitly a reflection in the "immaterial dimension of the Warp".

Which the Chaos Gods are explicitly the most powerful beings within. Huh.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

What page 15 of the Ork codex does state however is that the Ork gods are explicitly a reflection in the "immaterial dimension of the Warp".

Which the Chaos Gods are explicitly the most powerful beings within. Huh.

Again, you seem to be trying to make it seem like I said that they don't exist in the warp; why? I said they don't care about it, they don't care about it any more than corporeal Orks would care about the planet they live on.

and page 15 says 'Gork and Mork are diving power houses, deities so strong they are never truly defeated. They simply shrug of the attacks of the other gods with a raucous laugh"

Why would all powerful and vastly superior gods butt heads against something like a child kicking at the shins?

Yes, I know what it says, and it could support your case, were it not for the many sources stating that the Chaos Gods are the most powerful beings to reside in the Warp. Which Gork and Mork also reside in.

Therefore, the Chaos Gods are more powerful than Gork and Mork.

there is a third option. Gork and Mork AREN'T ACTUAL GODS. They don't exist as gods the way the 4 major powers of chaos do. (Or FIVE if you still count malal as something that exists...) This would explain why the Orkish gods have no realm in the warp, no daemonic servants and cannot be KILLED. The only direct intervention that Gork and Mork have made felt in the setting are the Foot of Gork type of Psychic powers. Now its important to note that chaos worshippers can channel; psychic power irrelevant of their chaos patron. There CAN be battle Psykers who worship khorne, Infact there ARE because khorne still needs them to get his Daemons out into the real world. Originally it was stated that ALL sorcery came from tzeentch, if so then even more so are Psychic powers NOT a reflection of which deity you pay fealty to.

I honestly feel Gork and Mork are the embodiment of the Orkish Ideal, they only exist where Orks gather in Massive Waaaghs, where their combined psychic potential calls them into beeing to preform these seeming miracles. How can you even feel gods stir in the warp for the first time if they have ALWAYS been there AND are the divine powerhouses the ork gods are reputed to be. I honestly feel that this might have been a refrence to something like the war for armageddon or another simlairly massive sector swallowing waagh gathering so much orks together that their combined psychic potential may have made the emperor wet his pants. Afterall he is only the combination of a few thousand human psyker souls. The power called into beeing by MILLIONS of orks gathering in a waagh frenzy would BE overwhelming.

Ofcourse as i said this is my theory that i read between the lines, but I think it would explain much. The orks gestalt power creating gods because the ORKS believe them to exist, at least while there are enough orks together to sustain them with unified belief befoe they fade away as the waagh itself runs out of steam and splinters up. It would also explain how the Orks still give power to Khorne whilst having their own deities to whom they pledge their skulls.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Yes, I know what it says, and it could support your case, were it not for the many sources stating that the Chaos Gods are the most powerful beings to reside in the Warp. Which Gork and Mork also reside in.

Therefore, the Chaos Gods are more powerful than Gork and Mork.

The president is the most powerful man in America. Lots of other men in that country could kick his ass.

What do the sources mean by "powerful"?


Also: Im sure I read some fluff somewhere about an ork being held prisoner by the Imperium and someone (maybe an inquisitor?) questioning it about its shoota. Upon looking at the weapon they found that the bullets were larger than the barrel and could not possibly be fired out of it. The ork was not very helpful and the person questioning it threw the shoota at it in frustration, the ork picked it up and shot him dead.

Its just the Inquisition not willing to admit they don't understand how Ork stuff works, so they blame it on something else.

Firstly it should be mentioned that in the 40k universe the Warp is quite like a photo negative of the physical universe. It is a realm all on its own, but it's dimensions are basically the same as the real, physical universe or Materium as GW likes to call it.

That being said, the entities that reside in the warp are, in a sense, local to the entities that exist outside of it. The Galaxy in 40k which I don't think has been officially given a name in-setting (hereafter referred to as the Milky Way for simplicity's sake) is without a doubt the stage for the main drama of the game, but it has been clearly stated that there exists much outside of it. The Old Ones first "crossed the sea of stars" into this galaxy to seed it with life, there may be many more Old Ones elsewhere in the universe that are busy seeding other galaxies with life and cleaning up after the Tyranids as they gobble them up. The Silent King in his terrible new bit of fluff has also left the galaxy and, after seeing the incoming Tyranids, returned to it.

The Eldar (who have ruled the galaxy for longer than any other group) did not worry about the realm of chaos. Their codex states "It did not hunger for souls as it does now". Likewise, if the terrible pseudo-canon stories of the shamans are to be believed than it corroborates the Eldar's experience. The Warp was, at some relatively recent point in history, a tamed realm. (Mileage on this may vary with the codex you pick up).

I bring this up here because in an discussion of 40k's power scale, it should not be overlooked that when a codex makes a statement like "The most powerful beings in the warp" What they really mean is "The most power beings in the part of the warp we are concerned with". The warp, just like real space... goes on forever, there are no boundaries to it that have any meaning or significance. It's it possible that other warp beings exist in other parts of the warp that could rival the four biggest demon we've manage to produce in our local warp-region. I'm not saying that there are... but making a case that there could be.

Now Void_Dragon has a bad habit of being overly literal when it suits his argument to be so... reading a single piece of lore and then saying "This is irrevocably true unless someone can find me a piece of lore that explicitly states otherwise" is naïve in the extreme and really just bad form in the 40k setting, which is rife with self-contradiction. Moreover, the codices are written from perspective...

Sadly, I am also compelled to join the silly foray and offer my two-cents about the most powerful being:

The Emperor seems like the best candidate for #1 from my view
The combination of His favored son, a unique-1 time-union of all four chaos powers, and circumstance created the #2 contender, who is now dead.

The scale really breaks down from there... The C'tan are just so poorly written and forced into the setting that they only half fit... I can concede that the Dragon is probably #3, the other C'tan are of no significance
Any given Chaos god at his peak would be #4, the others would be vying for position #5
Gork & Mork could be argued for #6

The scale gets even lower here with the Eldar pantheon... Khaine is clearly the best of them at #7, the others are of no matter

Then you get into the "lesser god" territory which is basically tied IMO for power with the Primarchs (Cegorach, Isha, etc). And from there you take a LONG dive down to the named characters of the game and the power scale gets a lot more concrete and definite.

/happy trolling

MY MARINES AND WOLVES AND GAURD AND ELDAR!!!!

 En Excelsis wrote:
Now Void_Dragon has a bad habit of being overly literal when it suits his argument to be so... reading a single piece of lore and then saying "This is irrevocably true unless someone can find me a piece of lore that explicitly states otherwise" is naïve in the extreme and really just bad form in the 40k setting, which is rife with self-contradiction. Moreover, the codices are written from perspective...

No, that is what the Gork and Mork supporters are doing.

Page 15 of the Ork codex is one of if not the only piece of fluff that might suggest the Ork gods are more powerful than the Chaos Gods (The only other candidate being the old Titanicus quote, which is even more subject to interpretation), but there is a multitude of quotes painting the Chaos Gods as the mightiest beings within the Warp.

I can concede that the Dragon is probably #3

#1 actually, even a slimmer of the Dragon's former power was capable of fighting the Emperor. The Emperor notably had to find the weakest chink of its necrodermis to do any damage.

From what I have read here, Void_dragon has only one quote to combat Gork/Mork being stronger, and it is a vague over encompassing quote used against the Ork codex vague and over encompassing quote. But the real point is 40k Lore is so vague or inconsistent that to insist either are winners is pretty silly.

I personally like the Ctan in their heyday to be the strongest.

You can't really compare C'Tan vs Chaos, though, at least not without setting a "within the material realm" parameter first. In which case, the chaos gods are actually not THAT powerful within the material realm. I guess they could conjure up a warp storm or something IF one assumes the one that led to the Abyssal Crusade was made by them, but I doubt they'd be able to direct it very well (otherwise we'd see a lot more direct warp storming going on I imagine)

Within the immaterial realm... well, a C'Tan can't even go there in the first place.

Necroes wrote:
Chaos Gods? (Including Human, Eldar, and Ork) No more non-necrons to power them, they go poof.

sjnscale wrote:Ynnead (the buffering god)

Well, it could be just a belief, but some seers (Eldrad and Kysaduras) predicted the rebirth of Ynnead after the death of the last eldar, with enough strenght to defeat slaanesh.
so it's all about the power of chaos gods.
-if they have the same power, then Ynnead could become stronger than anyone (in a single match )
-if slaanesh could be the strongest.... same thing
-if slaanesh is weaker than one of the others... well it could at least be a draw!
anyway chaos gods are not just powered by faith, but by destruction too, so i'm not sure that the star-booming technique could be a bad thing for them, and Ynnead would gain power from dead eldars...

 kinratha wrote:
Marbo.

Always marbo