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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/16 12:32:32
Subject: Egypt death toll rises to 525
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Define diplomatic/political power for me, in the context you think applies to our relationship with Egypt.
We can cut off aid, in which case it is made up by Qatar/Saudi/other nations. That lessens our influence in the region and in Egypt.
We can have our diplomats say mean things about the people capping their citizens. That doesn't seem to go too far towards a resolution.
The reality is, the only way to stop the violence is to threaten use of violence, and actually use violence against those who do not believe the threat (which would likely happen as we have made a lot of empty threats lately).
I think you have two real choices.
1. Sit back and watch, maybe offering some limited aid to the side of your choosing.
2. Either unilaterally or with some type of coalition go in with a peace making mission.
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/16 13:05:57
Subject: Egypt death toll rises to 525
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Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions
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djones520 wrote:Except the military has already shown that they will put power back into the hands of the people. The Muslim brotherhood tried acting outside of the bounds of their constitution, and that is why this happened.
I was being a smartar*e, but you are entirely correct. It says a lot about a country when the military, and not elected officials, protect democracy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/16 14:17:10
Subject: Egypt death toll rises to 525
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Courageous Grand Master
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djones520 wrote: Dreadclaw69 wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:While it's probably a good idea to pull any western military assets out of the frying pan, I'd like to think there's still a decent role for our diplomats to play as mediators between the two sides.
I'm sure we could find some common ground between the Muslim Brotherhood would-be dictatorship, and a possible military dictatorship.
Except the military has already shown that they will put power back into the hands of the people. The Muslim brotherhood tried acting outside of the bounds of their constitution, and that is why this happened.
So why isn't the US Military stepping in to protect American democracy? Obama has shown by his actions that he is a menace to democracy by his executive use of power to assassinate US citizens abroad, running roughshod over the 4th amendment, his relentless pursuit of whistle blowers, his failure to close G'Bay, his sanctioning of the NSA's mass surveillance programme etc etc.
Millions of people don't like Obama or voted for him. If we apply the logic of the Egyptian military, then that's grounds for the Marines marching on Washington!
The West complains at the lack of democracy in the Middle east, then complains when they have democratic elections and vote in somebody they don't like!
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"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/16 14:30:34
Subject: Egypt death toll rises to 525
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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Dreadclaw69 wrote: djones520 wrote:Except the military has already shown that they will put power back into the hands of the people. The Muslim brotherhood tried acting outside of the bounds of their constitution, and that is why this happened.
I was being a smartar*e, but you are entirely correct. It says a lot about a country when the military, and not elected officials, protect democracy.
Turkey's been down that path more than once.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/16 14:36:32
Subject: Egypt death toll rises to 525
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Compared to every other revolution since ever, this one is actually STILL relatively peaceful, surprisingly.
What's promising is that every time there's a setback or a complication, there's been a calmer period afterwards where the country seems to have the conversations about it.
So while scary and deadly, this revolution is probably longterm productive.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/16 14:39:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/16 14:46:36
Subject: Egypt death toll rises to 525
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Easy E wrote:
Straight up truth!
It is not inthe interests of the United States to complete withdraw into an isolationist stance ala DJJones and frazs idea. We already tried that in the 1920's. It didn;t work out that well either.
However, I agree that this is not a military problem, but a siplomatic one. That is the only U.S. effort that should be expended, political power and diplomacy.
I thought some of you Righties woudl care a bit more about the only* country that has signed a peace treaty with our friends in Israel. Don;t their interests matter to you.
*= I'm not sur eif this is true anymore, but they were the first.
Why don't you be sure of what my stance is before you start saying what it is. I for one have no freakin clue how this thing should be handled, so don't go spreading gak about me. I am vehemently against an isolationist stance though, always have been.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/16 14:49:00
Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/16 16:11:08
Subject: Egypt death toll rises to 525
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Bryan Ansell
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Dreadclaw69 wrote: djones520 wrote:Except the military has already shown that they will put power back into the hands of the people. The Muslim brotherhood tried acting outside of the bounds of their constitution, and that is why this happened.
I was being a smartar*e, but you are entirely correct. It says a lot about a country when the military, and not elected officials, protect democracy.
The military are protecting their own interests, not those of the 'democratic' masses.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/16 16:14:30
Subject: Egypt death toll rises to 525
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Mr. Burning wrote: Dreadclaw69 wrote: djones520 wrote:Except the military has already shown that they will put power back into the hands of the people. The Muslim brotherhood tried acting outside of the bounds of their constitution, and that is why this happened.
I was being a smartar*e, but you are entirely correct. It says a lot about a country when the military, and not elected officials, protect democracy.
The military are protecting their own interests, not those of the 'democratic' masses.
As are the Brotherhood.
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/16 16:30:47
Subject: Egypt death toll rises to 525
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Bryan Ansell
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CptJake wrote: Mr. Burning wrote: Dreadclaw69 wrote: djones520 wrote:Except the military has already shown that they will put power back into the hands of the people. The Muslim brotherhood tried acting outside of the bounds of their constitution, and that is why this happened.
I was being a smartar*e, but you are entirely correct. It says a lot about a country when the military, and not elected officials, protect democracy.
The military are protecting their own interests, not those of the 'democratic' masses.
As are the Brotherhood.
Of course.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/16 21:39:24
Subject: Re:Egypt death toll rises to 525
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Good for them! Show the barbarians how little their actions mean.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/08/16/egyptian-military-chief-vows-to-rebuild-coptic-churches/
The Egyptian defense minister has ordered the repair and reconstruction of all churches that suffered damage in the country’s violent demonstrations since the Egyptian military removed President Mohamed Morsi from power last month.
Defense minister Col. Gen. Abdel Fattah El-Sisi intends to fix the damage to Coptic churches at Rabaa Adaweya and Nahda squares, according to a report by the Mid-East Christian News.
Dozens of churches were attacked and burned in riots after thousands of demonstrators took to the streets of Cairo and other Egyptian cities to demand the end of what they call military rule, following the removal of Morsi on July 3. Many of Morsi's supporters have voiced criticism at Egypt's Christian minority for largely supporting the military's decision to oust him from office.
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/17 00:06:53
Subject: Re:Egypt death toll rises to 525
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Roarin' Runtherd
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Experiment 626 wrote: whembly wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:CloudRider wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:
+1
Who cares if the government forces fight back and kill off a bunch of ultra conservative Islamists who'd love nothing better than to turn around and turn the entire western world to ash because we don't follow sharia law, worship false idols and let everyone practice their own religion freely without fear of being burned/tortured/murdered for it?
I'm sure those evil Christians must have set fire to their own churches just to make the Brotherhood look bad, because they'd never try to incite violence against minorities. 
Someone give this woman a cigar.
Golden, my friend, absolute Gold.
Haha sorry Experiment 626
Fixed that for you!
And right on the spot as ever, good 'ol Obama yet again completely missing the real issues and doing what the leftist loonies do best - pander to the poor Islamists instead of stand up to them: http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/obama-puts-egypt-on-notice-after-clashes-kill-525-2
Hey... I'm usually first in line to bash Obama... but, what's he supposed to do?
To me? This is a civil war in the making... a gak ton coptic churches were burned down over the last week.
Well, keep in mind that this potential civil war is being entirely instigated by the Islamists and their actions:
- Morsi was an idiot who started putting very narrow-minded & selfish Islamic ideals ahead of his country's real needs such as fixing the crippled economy and protecting the rights of minorities being freely targets by religious extremists.
He lost all creadibility the moment he did this. The majority of Egyptians took to the streets and demanded he step down. In a western country, any leader acting the way Morsi did would have simply been arrested by the state police force for corruption and working against the public good.
- Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood supporters got all pissy when the army stepped in and did the right thing.
So they took to the streets in turn, calling for their supporters to band together and fight to the death if necessary to re-instate an incompetent leader who'd only support their own views.
Note that most of the clashes have been instigated by the Brotherhood, either by the clerics calling for violence or Brotherhood leaders themselves working as agitators.
The Brotherhood is also accused of supporting hardline militants and inciting violence in other cities outside of the capital to boot.
- The Egyptian government gave the protesters a deadline to move out of their camps which were purposefully set-up in places that would disrupt local business/tourists.
The Brotherhood not only shot back with clear, "put-up-or-shut-up" attitude towards police & military security forces, literally daring them to make a move, but they also brought in more and more women and children to the camps to act as shields. (a common tactic among Islamists - look at Hamas in the Gaza Strip who enjoy setting up their mortars & rocket launching sites within playgrounds in order to make any counter-attack look like the senseless laughter of innocents...)
Plus, there's video evidence of Brotherhood protesters firing upon police forces. We don't know who fired the first lethal shot, but clearly, the Brotherhood are not interest in "peaceful protest" considering they were not only betting on a fight, but obviously preparing for one with weapons of their own.
Obama shouldn't be doing such an instant 'quick-180' on his real allies in Egypt. The Brotherhood are the main threat to Egypt's future peace and his pandering by instantly condemning the government forces and laying 100% blame on them is simply playing into the Brotherhood's mentality of always being the poor victims of the hateful west. (and encouraging them to continue doing so!)
Sure what happened is an awful and it can't be allowed to continue.
But at the very least, he should be following Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird's example of basically laying blame for the massacres & civil violence at the feet of both sides and calling on all parties to stop the killings and at least try to work things out in a civil manner.
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"Wot's faster than a warbuggy, more killy than a warbike, and flies through da air like a bird? I got no bleedin' idea, but I'm gonna find out". - Speedfreak |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/19 11:19:32
Subject: Re:Egypt death toll rises to 525
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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djones520 wrote:Good for them! Show the barbarians how little their actions mean.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/08/16/egyptian-military-chief-vows-to-rebuild-coptic-churches/
The Egyptian defense minister has ordered the repair and reconstruction of all churches that suffered damage in the country’s violent demonstrations since the Egyptian military removed President Mohamed Morsi from power last month.
Defense minister Col. Gen. Abdel Fattah El-Sisi intends to fix the damage to Coptic churches at Rabaa Adaweya and Nahda squares, according to a report by the Mid-East Christian News.
Dozens of churches were attacked and burned in riots after thousands of demonstrators took to the streets of Cairo and other Egyptian cities to demand the end of what they call military rule, following the removal of Morsi on July 3. Many of Morsi's supporters have voiced criticism at Egypt's Christian minority for largely supporting the military's decision to oust him from office.
If you are a Copt and you have the means, its time to bail. AS the immortal bard said: Come with me if you want to live.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/19 12:43:20
Subject: Egypt death toll rises to 525
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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One of my technicians is Egyptian and out there right now in Cairo. I'd have preferred he hadn't gone really but he has a flat he wants to check on and look after and there's no swaying him. Aside from the big deaths associated with riots, there's an ongoing problem with Christians being roughed up by Muslims supporting the Brotherhood. There's just general violent and thuggery that's been going on since the Brotherhood got in that makes the streets dangerous for locals.
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