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2013/08/16 22:47:20
Subject: Re:2K Golden Throne Reigning Champ vs Ex-Champ - Mortetvie's Eldar/Tau vs Jy2's Necrons (Turn 2 updated
lambsandlions wrote: I really think those warp spiders are going to be the unsung heroes of this game. Coming down to pop the back of the a-barge is good but what they have done is forced necron's hand. Necrons was forced to either keep charging with the wraiths and let the spiders take out another a-barge or turn the a-barge to shoot the spiders (where they would die to broadsides next turn) or kill the spiders with the wraiths. Necrons elected to send the wraiths to kill the spiders which is now going to take the wraiths out of combat for a turn or two. More importantly, d-lord is all alone now, so he can't go los shenanigans. This is going to give taudar a turn to kill the closer wraiths, and hopefully the two d-lords. If they can manage that on turn three, their turn 4 can be focused on killing the back unit of wraiths. Once the wraiths are gone taudar can start moving out to claim objectives.
I think the better line of play would have been to keep sending both units of wraiths at the taudar lines and turn around the a-barges to kill the spiders. If wraiths make it to taudar's reapers or broadsides necrons pretty much wins the game. You lose two a-barges but you gain the potential of the wraiths wiping out the taudar castle.
I agree, I would have rather allocated a Nightscythe/Barge if possible and sent all the Wraiths at the lines. But we'll see how it turns out.
Bee beep boo baap
2013/08/17 05:18:55
Subject: Re:2K Golden Throne Reigning Champ vs Ex-Champ - Mortetvie's Eldar/Tau vs Jy2's Necrons
Marthike wrote: I see this as a spam list vs a tactical list.
I know spam are amazing and have looked into them alot since I am always asking for advice with them.
However, I dont pay much attention to tactical lists because I never seen a good player use one, i see alot of people craft lists trying to make combos of things but most doesn't work out.
I took some time and looked at his list and his got so many threats that can deal with infantry and tank. I can see why this list can be so brutal, the fire power is insane.
Both can be good. Spam-lists have the bonus of redundancy but tactical lists tend to be more synergistic. Some of the best players in our area - Reecius, Janthkin and Mortetvie to name a few - run non-spam, tactical, finesse lists that relies mainly on synergy and brutal combos. I tend to run more spammy lists, at least for my competitive builds, because certain necron units are just so damn unbelievably good. Either can be successful as long as you know to run it properly.
But necrons are still necrons....and troops in flyer transports that can move 36" is soooooo damn good it's almost criminal.
I finally have time to build a new army now, but with the ammount of new armies and lists Its making my head hurt. 6th ed is definatly not like 5th where the amount of competitive lists are less. Also probably because of all the new codexs comming so fast the meta is just changing so quickly, unless your playing frequently your not gonna keep up. I am 90% sure I am gonna build a necrowraith army (unless the new SM codex turns out to be the game changer) so I have faith that you will win.
2013/08/17 15:01:11
Subject: Re:2K Golden Throne Reigning Champ vs Ex-Champ - Mortetvie's Eldar/Tau vs Jy2's Necrons (Turn 2 updated
Eldar would continue to cast their psychic powers each and every turn.
Spider continues falling back. He shoots at another barge but to no avail.
Wraithguards disembark. Skimmers move around.
Eldar movement. Kroots move away from my wraithstar.
Reapers down another annihilation barge. 3 down. +3 bonus VP's. 3 more to go.
The rest of his army focuses on my Warlord's unit. He downs 4 wraiths (1 remaining) as well as my Warlord!....
....but not for long. Heh, heh. Thanks to my Res Orb, my Warlord gets back up and moves into coherency with the last wraith.
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
My last scythe comes in. Again, I use the rocky formation (I'll call it a "hill") for cover from his Icarus.
Warlord split off from the lone wraith. Fortunately for me, I believe his kroots are out of the halve-charge-distance objective.
Scythes goes after the skimmers. Annihilation barges advance as well.
Looks like trouble for the broadsides in the form of my Destroyer Lord.
My last AB advance as well. This is a mistake on my part. With just 1 HP left, I move it into the threat range of his wraithguards.
Shooting wrecks the serpent, puts 3W on the Tau Commander and kills off 1 of his drones.
To the left, my night scythe and AB wreck his other serpent (the wraithguard's) as well.
Both D-lords make their charge! My non-Warlord D-lord may have taken 1 or 2W from Overwatch, but I charge him first to reduce the amount of Overwatch from supporting fire against my Warlord.
The result is not good for my opponent as I wipe out both units (either with a sweeping advance or by them running off the table). I also get +1 VP for killing his broadsides.
Wraiths assault the fleeing spider, wipe him off the face of the planet and then consolidate to spread out as well as get closer to my opponent.
Things are not looking too rosy for Eldau currently.
Eldar 4
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 4.
Wraithguards go after my AB. Night-spinner gets away from my D-lords.
Both units of jetbikes finally come in from reserves. They both go after my Warlord with just 1W left.
So it's either hide the jetbikes or try to take down my Warlord with 12 TL rending shots. It is just too tempting for my opponent to try to take out my Warlord and so he goes for it.
DR's (dark reapers) continue to ignore my flyers and shoot at my barges. 4 down. 2 more to go.
But the HUGE one....his jetbikes shoot at my Warlord....and fails to get a single rend!!!
Wraithknights just make it into assault with my AB (my mistake for moving it too close). S5 means they can glance it to death....
....and they do just that. 1 more AB to go.
Finally, the jetbikes jump away in the assault phase, but not nearly far enough.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
Night scythe comes in from Ongoing Reserves and drop off my troops onto an objective.
I ignore his reapers and go after the 2 jetbike units. Like I said, killing his mobility is paramount. I'll let him take out my last AB, but I want his bikers DEAD!
Wraiths go after his DR's. I am about 5" away.
Night scythe goes after the spinner.
The other 2 night scythes then fly off the table.
Shooting with 1 night scythe and the AB kill 2 reapers and put 1W on spiritseer (or farseer?).
Both D-lords assault and both units of bikers survive with just 1 model left in each. They both pass morale.
Finally, my wraiths fail their charge against the reapers. I believe I lose 1 wraith to Overwatch.
Eldar 5
Spoiler:
Wraithguards hunker down behind cover on an objective.
Night-spinner moves towards the main force.
Reapers take out the last AB. Currently, Adam is at +6 VP's for killing all my heavy supports.
Lastly, I finish off both units of guardian jetbikes in assault.
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
Ok, I pretty sure I've got this. Night scythe comes in and drops off its troops.
Both of them do.
And for good measure, I drop off my last troops to contest the objective held by the wraithguards.
D-lords and wraiths go in for the coup de grace.
Night scythe goes after his last heavy support.
Interceptor from the Icarus finally blows away 1 of my flyers.
I then wipe out both heavy supports as well as his Warlord Farseer.
Night scythe shoots down the spinner. Wraiths and D-lord takes apart the reapers and Farseer in combat. Fortunately, my opponent used his Puretide Chip last turn to make the unit Stubborn. Surviving Tau Commander and Spiritseer hit-&-runs out of combat and towards my objective.
We check to see if the game continues and it does.
Eldar 6
Spoiler:
It's not over yet. My opponent still has a slim chance to pull an upset.
First off, wraithguards need to get rid of my contesting troops.
Then his commander has got to break my unit of warriors on an objective and hope they don't regroup next turn. BTW, the Commander and the Spiritseer splits off. I believe for the 3rd time this game, he heals the commander of another Wound.
Like I said.....slim chance.
Objective #1 accomplished.
The Commander kills 2 warriors. However, I would pass Morale (on LD10).
His Commander then tries to contest my objective with his assault move....but ends up a few inches short.
Necrons 6
Spoiler:
Wraiths go after the wraithguards.
I send my night scythes after them as well.
Night scythes shoot down 2 wraithguards. Wraiths then run to contest but are about 1" short.
Warriors rapid-fire and take off 1W from the Commander. My lone wraith then assaults and they stay locked in combat.
My D-lord charges and destroys the Spiritseer. Should the game continue, I should be able to get his Commander as well.
But it (the game) doesn't....
I've got 3 objectives....
....to Mortetvie's 1.
Mortetvie gets 6 heavy support VP's as well as First Blood (annihilation barge). I get 3 heavy support VP's (night-spinner, broadsides, dark reapers), Warlord and Linebreaker (my Warlord).
Necrons: (by Jy2)
I apologize for the proxies, but this was a test game and I wanted to try out 6 annihilation barges to see how good they really are. I actually have 4 AB's, though 2 of them were in the process of getting painted and was not available for this game. If this was 2K single-FOC, I would have ran 3 AB's and 18 wraiths. 1 other build that I was considering for double-FOC was this:
3x Destroyer Lords - 2+, MSS, 2 w/Res Orbs
18x Wraiths, plain
3x5 Warriors in Night Scythes
1x5 Warriors on foot
3x AB's
With regards to the terrain, yeah, it wasn't the best terrain. The situation was this, however. We couldn't play until about 9pm at night. This LGS was the closest one to where Adam was staying (near Pleasanton) and the only one in the area to open until midnight. I have never been to this store before so this was my first time there. Unfortunately when we got there, this was the only table available to play on and with pre-set terrain. Thus, we had to make do with it. So I apologize if the terrain seem unfair. Next time I am in SoCal, I'll let Adam pick the store and terrain.
Basically, my strategy was the same as in all my other games - to control the Movement phase through my philosophy of Positional Dominance. Basically, my plan was to trap my opponent inside his little castle, all the while taking out his mobility and preventing him from getting to the objectives. While I gave up my annihilation barges, it was a sacrifice I was perfectly happy to take in order to keep my mobility (warriors in flyers). The fact that both Destroyer Lords survived was a bonus. I would have been perfectly fine to lose my HQ's and wraiths if that meant he never got to leave his deployment zone. My target priorities were the skimmers, jetbikes, spiders and riptide. Not only were those his most mobile units, but they were also a integral part of his offense. Serpents were a threat to my flyers, riptide a threat to my wraiths and objectives and spiders an all-around offense and mobile threat. Jetbikes were a threat to my objectives as well as being a scoring unit. I knew I could take out his heavy supports eventually after I've established control of the Movement phase. The success of my crons lies not in the Shooting or the Assault phases, but rather in the Movement phase, especially in objectives-based missions.
I did make some mistakes, though thankfully, it wasn't anything I couldn't recover from. First off was the placement of the objectives. I felt I could have done a better job with the objective placement. On turn 4 when my 2 scythes came in and dropped off the troops, I had very limited movement with them afterwards. I need to place the objectives in such a way that my scythes can take off the following turn and still shoot something. Next was the deployment of 1 of my AB's. I deployed it too far away and I believe it took 2 turns of movement before it was finally in range to shoot something meaningful....and then it got shot down. Finally, I made the mistake of advancing my far-left AB too far forwards and into the assault range of his wraithguards. That barge might have survived had I not done that. Other than that, my gameplan was pretty spot-on in my opinion.
As for my opponent, Mortetvie also made some mistakes. The most obvious one was to go after my Warlord with both units of jetbikes. Even had he succeeded in killing off my Warlord, there was a 50% chance of him getting back up. I also had another D-lord that would pounce on them and would have went after them with my last AB and all my night scythes. The other major mistake that my opponent made was to get trapped within my dragnet. It was a great idea for him to deepstrike his spiders into my backfield (I would have done exactly the same thing). However, he really needed more than 1 disruption unit to throw me off my game. Breaking off the riptide from the main army or even the wraithguard serpents would have been my 2nd choice for a disruption unit, though in all fairness, the movement of his wraithguard serpent was somewhat limited due to the threat range of my wraiths. BTW, I believe he put his wraithguards in reserves and they didn't come in until Turn 2. That was actually a good move and I would have done the same thing.
All in all, it was a great game against a great opponent. Adam, we can have the rematch the next time I am down in SoCal and you can pick the place.
Eldar: (by Mortetvie)
The terrain was pretty awful, as mentioned above; I think it was like 50-75% density!
Besides that, I deep struck the spiders and hoped to get far enough away out of threat rage of wraiths but Jim rolled a really good distance for his charge so that was out of my control, if he failed the charge, the "gamble" would have paid off.
Regarding the bikes and night spinner, that was my poor play I was talking about earlier, if I had used them like I usually do (and have done in my GTGT games), I would have been able to contest 2 of Jim's objectives and either claim one for myself or deny Jim the kill on the spinner for either a draw or win. Be that as it may, it was also a bummer my tau commander didn't make his hit & run test to contest another one of Jim's objectives .
Finally, there was so much terrain it really kind of forced me to stay penned in and I was constantly knocking over those card board ruins! I think I was so fed up with trying to balance some of my models that I decided just not to move them lol.
Good game and thanks for being willing to play so late Jim .
This game was educational for me as I took several lessons on how things worked or didn't work in my army and how certain tactics were good or bad with me to the GTGT. So part of the credit to my winning goes to Jim for helping me fine-tune my list and play.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/08/17 22:23:50
Fikol wrote: I think it would come to the board setup and LOS / LOS blocks... I think after that you can forsee who will win
Just throwing my 2 cents in since this is a game I played and quoting the above for truth =). I don't think I have ever seen a table with such ridiculous terrain and the huge LOS blocking pillars that were actually double or triple the height of a Wraithknight! This gave Jim a lot of places to hide his Wraiths and units which is very bad for an otherwise shooty army such as mine =(. To reiterate, no tournament organizer would ever have a table like the one we played on but this was the only gaming store open at the time Jim and I could get our game in so we didn't really have a choice.
Other than the terrain, I did make some very stupid and critical mistakes in the name of science and funsies which I would not do in an actual tournament game but as to not ruin any surprises, I'll save such commentary until after the battle report is finished being posted =).
As an aside, Jim forgot to mention in his turn 2 commentary that my Riptide got a good hit with a Nova-charged Ion Accelerator and hit all 3 of his Barges in the middle and got 3 penetrating hits but Jim made all 3 of his Jink saves rolling 3 6s, insanity! Also, his Wraiths needed at least a 9" charge on my spiders (not a big difference) but he rolled something like a 10 lol; darn terrain ignoring wraiths rolling good for their charge moves! It was pretty hilarious watching his other Wraith unit fail the charge, though.
So yeah, I'll leave the rest of my commentary until after the report is finished but I will say that none of Jim's Barges survived to the end of the game...=)
Also, regarding the Tau Commander jump, I moved in the assault phase but did not join the Broadsides. That was a "typo" on Jim's part, I moved the Commander closer to the Icarus (which happened to be near the Broadsides) so next turn I can hopefully move him or a member of the unit to man the Icarus to hopefully shoot down some incoming NightScythes.
Thanks for the game Adam. And congrats on the Golden Throne GT this year.
Sorry I was a little foggy on some of the details. After 2 weeks and 6 games at the ATC, my memory is slightly hazy.
Those reapers are nasty! I certainly didn't expect for you to kill off all my heavies. Great job with the limited amount of AT in your list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/17 16:26:17
Worst table ever! Ha ha. Seriously, did it occur to factor those rocky outcrops into the terrain density at all? Looked like 40K on a necromunda table.
I think he did (eldar) well though considering he brought the same list and jy2 knew what was in it. Not saying jy2 wouldn't have brought the same list necessarily but knowing how his units operate before playing and fielding a new list is a pretty big edge. I would have liked to see his GT winning list against Mortivies with a few minor tweaks but sticking to single FOC like last year.
Either way I think he made some awful choices. Obviously the bikes were a huge mistake but I also think staying boxed in for as long as he did screwed him over. The NS should have gotten out of dodge by turn 5 and tried for an objective, the 3++ with holofields should have helped alot. I think trading the spiders for a AB was also a big blunder. I know others will disagree with me but I think DS them more conservatively so they can contest and score LB is a better option. Jy2 would still need to decide whether or not to deal with them but instead of sacing them for +1 BGNT point he could have gained +1 from LB and had them for late game. Outflanking the kroot would have been another interesting technique, he had plenty of scoring HS in his end he really needed to stretch jy2's army from turn 1 onward.
Also I understand it was testing but it really is a shame seeing proxied AB's knowing how many actual necron models jy2 owns. I mean why not 4 full units of wraiths for example? Just seemed like unnecessary proxying to spam more AB's.
Just my 2 cents worth, and great game! I would like to see a rematch aginst5 Reeces marines especially after the new codex drops!
The terrain was pretty awful, as mentioned above; I think it was like 50-75% density!
Besides that, I deep struck the spiders and hoped to get far enough away out of threat rage of wraiths but Jim rolled a really good distance for his charge so that was out of my control, if he failed the charge, the "gamble" would have paid off.
Regarding the bikes and night spinner, that was my poor play I was talking about earlier, if I had used them like I usually do (and have done in my GTGT games), I would have been able to contest 2 of Jim's objectives and either claim one for myself or deny Jim the kill on the spinner for either a draw or win. Be that as it may, it was also a bummer my tau commander didn't make his hit & run test to contest another one of Jim's objectives .
Finally, there was so much terrain it really kind of forced me to stay penned in and I was constantly knocking over those card board ruins! I think I was so fed up with trying to balance some of my models that I decided just not to move them lol.
Good game and thanks for being willing to play so late Jim .
This game was educational for me as I took several lessons on how things worked or didn't work in my army and how certain tactics were good or bad with me to the GTGT. So part of the credit to my winning goes to Jim for helping me fine-tune my list and play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/17 18:47:21
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
Well played match. Here are the things I think could have been changed. These are based on what I read and saw, not being able to see the board los and distances may be off.
Eldar/tau:
1) Reapers should have focused on wraiths and d-lords rather than a-barges. Everything behind the aegis had amazing saves so the a-barges wouldn't be doing too much damage. The wraith and d-lord however were able to kill a whole unit every turn once they got to your side of the board.
2) Wraithgaurd should have got out of the waveserpent earlier. That expensive unit didn't really do much all game and could have helped fighting off those d-lords and wraiths.
3) Jet bikes boxed in. Now if their killing would have finished off a d-lord it would have been worth it but even then, they should have been spaced out more so hopefully one unit could get away.
Necrons:
1) Focusing down the riptide first. I dont think he was really doing anything where those could have killed a lot of reapers who were wreckin' yo stuff.
2) Sending wraiths after spiders. I think that you should have shot them with an a-barge.
3) Splitting of your d-lord so early. Luckily he didn't get killed but it but him in major jeopardy.
Overall I think that the necrons had a tougher list, with the wall of av13 and all those 3++ saves. Eldar/tau seems like it would murder anything with regular sv3+ like marines and other eldar lists but struggle against this necrons list. But it was a good exciting match.
2013/08/17 19:33:34
Subject: 2K Golden Throne Reigning Champ vs Ex-Champ - Mortetvie's Eldar/Tau vs Jy2's Necrons (Completed)
Hey I understand mate. It's always easy to point out the mistakes in retrospect, but I think the game from it's incarnation had obvious issues as has been stated. Terrain, but also lists. I still don't understand his list really, it's one thing to design a challenging list and another to suck the enjoyment out both visually and interactively with so much spamming. I honestly think he could have put together a better list using his 4th unit of wraiths (again spamming ) and possibly allies.
You'll get him next time though I think it would be the most enlightening if you both designed entirely new lists and went head to head as if it were an actual surprise at an event.
Eldar/tau:
1) Reapers should have focused on wraiths and d-lords rather than a-barges. Everything behind the aegis had amazing saves so the a-barges wouldn't be doing too much damage. The wraith and d-lord however were able to kill a whole unit every turn once they got to your side of the board.
2) Wraithgaurd should have got out of the waveserpent earlier. That expensive unit didn't really do much all game and could have helped fighting off those d-lords and wraiths.
Have to disagree mate. His target priority with that unit was spot on. Killing a barge turn 1 gave him +2 points meaning that sacrificing the unit and warlord would cost him nothing and every other barge they nipped would be another point ahead all while scoring back home. The math against the d-lords and wraiths just makes it an awful choice.
The wraith guard were a bit wasted, should have flown upfield earlier, again they would do almost nothing to the wraithstars and would die really quick. Honestly had he flown his serpents around to his rear flanks earlier he would have been in great position. serpent shield and 3++ is really tough for even tesla to crack.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think castling behind the ADL was just his default deployment and "comfort" zone, really the riptide and Bsides didn't need to be were they were and had they been on the flanks really could have disrupted his flight paths with the NS's.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/17 19:54:10
some choises, the sorcerer with shriek is a nice deterrent for stupid bike/coversave linkebreakers.
The Helldrake really shines, it is a good at killing troops but will add anti tank to take out those nasty coversaveserpents.
If needed he can hover turn its tail and fry something backline (in that game the spiders would be the perfect assault.
And if not for that the helldrake is just a weapon of Terror!! it influences players moves/set ups and decissions.
3 units of wraiths, 4 barges, 3 planes shoud present enough targets.
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/08/17 20:51:37
Subject: 2K Golden Throne Reigning Champ vs Ex-Champ - Mortetvie's Eldar/Tau vs Jy2's Necrons (Completed)
Red Corsair wrote: I still don't understand his list really, it's one thing to design a challenging list and another to suck the enjoyment out both visually and interactively with so much spamming.
In your opinion. Some people have no problem with spam and/or proxies.
djones520 wrote: Your list isn't legal. Your short 1 Troop choice.
Then mortetvie his list is illegal to???? he only has 3 primary troopchoices either, wraiths and 2 times bikes...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/17 22:02:04
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/08/17 22:04:44
Subject: 2K Golden Throne Reigning Champ vs Ex-Champ - Mortetvie's Eldar/Tau vs Jy2's Necrons (Completed)
Necrons: (by Jy2)
I apologize for the proxies, but this was a test game and I wanted to try out 6 annihilation barges to see how good they really are. I actually have 4 AB's, though 2 of them were in the process of getting painted and was not available for this game. If this was 2K single-FOC, I would have ran 3 AB's and 18 wraiths. 1 other build that I was considering for double-FOC was this:
3x Destroyer Lords - 2+, MSS, 2 w/Res Orbs
18x Wraiths, plain
3x5 Warriors in Night Scythes
1x5 Warriors on foot
3x AB's
With regards to the terrain, yeah, it wasn't the best terrain. The situation was this, however. We couldn't play until about 9pm at night. This LGS was the closest one to where Adam was staying (near Pleasanton) and the only one in the area to open until midnight. I have never been to this store before so this was my first time there. Unfortunately when we got there, this was the only table available to play on and with pre-set terrain. Thus, we had to make do with it. So I apologize if the terrain seem unfair. Next time I am in SoCal, I'll let Adam pick the store and terrain.
Basically, my strategy was the same as in all my other games - to control the Movement phase through my philosophy of Positional Dominance. Basically, my plan was to trap my opponent inside his little castle, all the while taking out his mobility and preventing him from getting to the objectives. While I gave up my annihilation barges, it was a sacrifice I was perfectly happy to take in order to keep my mobility (warriors in flyers). The fact that both Destroyer Lords survived was a bonus. I would have been perfectly fine to lose my HQ's and wraiths if that meant he never got to leave his deployment zone. My target priorities were the skimmers, jetbikes, spiders and riptide. Not only were those his most mobile units, but they were also a integral part of his offense. Serpents were a threat to my flyers, riptide a threat to my wraiths and objectives and spiders an all-around offense and mobile threat. Jetbikes were a threat to my objectives as well as being a scoring unit. I knew I could take out his heavy supports eventually after I've established control of the Movement phase. The success of my crons lies not in the Shooting or the Assault phases, but rather in the Movement phase, especially in objectives-based missions.
I did make some mistakes, though thankfully, it wasn't anything I couldn't recover from. First off was the placement of the objectives. I felt I could have done a better job with the objective placement. On turn 4 when my 2 scythes came in and dropped off the troops, I had very limited movement with them afterwards. I need to place the objectives in such a way that my scythes can take off the following turn and still shoot something. Next was the deployment of 1 of my AB's. I deployed it too far away and I believe it took 2 turns of movement before it was finally in range to shoot something meaningful....and then it got shot down. Finally, I made the mistake of advancing my far-left AB too far forwards and into the assault range of his wraithguards. That barge might have survived had I not done that. Other than that, my gameplan was pretty spot-on in my opinion.
As for my opponent, Mortetvie also made some mistakes. The most obvious one was to go after my Warlord with both units of jetbikes. Even had he succeeded in killing off my Warlord, there was a 50% chance of him getting back up. I also had another D-lord that would pounce on them and would have went after them with my last AB and all my night scythes. The other major mistake that my opponent made was to get trapped within my dragnet. It was a great idea for him to deepstrike his spiders into my backfield (I would have done exactly the same thing). However, he really needed more than 1 disruption unit to throw me off my game. Breaking off the riptide from the main army or even the wraithguard serpents would have been my 2nd choice for a disruption unit, though in all fairness, the movement of his wraithguard serpent was somewhat limited due to the threat range of my wraiths. BTW, I believe he put his wraithguards in reserves and they didn't come in until Turn 2. That was actually a good move and I would have done the same thing.
All in all, it was a great game against a great opponent. Adam, we can have the rematch the next time I am down in SoCal and you can pick the place.
Eldar: (by Mortetvie)
The terrain was pretty awful, as mentioned above; I think it was like 50-75% density!
Besides that, I deep struck the spiders and hoped to get far enough away out of threat rage of wraiths but Jim rolled a really good distance for his charge so that was out of my control, if he failed the charge, the "gamble" would have paid off.
Regarding the bikes and night spinner, that was my poor play I was talking about earlier, if I had used them like I usually do (and have done in my GTGT games), I would have been able to contest 2 of Jim's objectives and either claim one for myself or deny Jim the kill on the spinner for either a draw or win. Be that as it may, it was also a bummer my tau commander didn't make his hit & run test to contest another one of Jim's objectives .
Finally, there was so much terrain it really kind of forced me to stay penned in and I was constantly knocking over those card board ruins! I think I was so fed up with trying to balance some of my models that I decided just not to move them lol.
Good game and thanks for being willing to play so late Jim .
This game was educational for me as I took several lessons on how things worked or didn't work in my army and how certain tactics were good or bad with me to the GTGT. So part of the credit to my winning goes to Jim for helping me fine-tune my list and play.
SkaredCast wrote: I really liked that table! Impassable, and LOS blocking terrain that breaks up the board is super fun and makes the game a lot more tactical.
But completely useless for a tournament player when your never ever gonna get that in a tournament, so its not good practice for them.
Anyway, good report i been waiting for your reports jy2 and this is perfect
2013/08/18 03:21:14
Subject: 2K Golden Throne Reigning Champ vs Ex-Champ - Mortetvie's Eldar/Tau vs Jy2's Necrons (Completed)
Next time you are in SoCal we definitely have to get a game in .
Also, I definitely agree with the general comments about how I used the wraithguard, bikes and night spinner. Regarding the riptide, however, there was so much terrain that that was the only place to deploy it without neutering his LOS, I deployed first so I couldn't risk Jim counter deploying to make the riptide useless. Regarding the bikes, it was a fun gamble to see if they could tend the dlord and if they would have rended, I had some models I could have ran over his corpse so the dlord couldn't get back up... But I have since learnt that the sure plan is generally better than the risky one (despite the potentially greater rewards).
All in all, the Night Spinner was a random addition I added because I didn't have extra spiders or other units to bring my 1850 list up to 2k :(. In the GTGT, I routinely wished the night spinner was a warp hunter or another unit of spiders...
So thank you once again for the game, Jim and until next time .
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/18 03:22:00
Jesus Christ changed my life, He can do the same for you!
djones520 wrote: Your list isn't legal. Your short 1 Troop choice.
Then mortetvie his list is illegal to???? he only has 3 primary troopchoices either, wraiths and 2 times bikes...
You have 4 heavies, therefor 2xfoc but only 3 primary troops. mortetvie has only one detachment.
What he said. You have 4 Cron heavies, which would necessitate 2 FOCs. So with 2 FOC's and 1 Ally, that would require 4 Cron troops, 1 Chaos.
Right, hadn't thought of that, your correct, anyhow we never play double force org or even 2k points around here, screwed up the listbuilding..., altough the triple destroyer lord would be absolutely brutal...
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
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And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/08/18 14:59:40
Subject: 2K Golden Throne Reigning Champ vs Ex-Champ - Mortetvie's Eldar/Tau vs Jy2's Necrons (Completed)
CaptainJay wrote: It says eldar turn 1, that the commander jump packs to join the broadsides. Can he do that? I thought I.C.s could only join/leave units in the movement phase? Also how does the assault move interact with units that dont have it (like the dark reapers and tau commander).
My mistake. Apparently he did not. He just jumped into contact with the Icarus in case my flyers come in.
lambsandlions wrote: I really think those warp spiders are going to be the unsung heroes of this game. Coming down to pop the back of the a-barge is good but what they have done is forced necron's hand. Necrons was forced to either keep charging with the wraiths and let the spiders take out another a-barge or turn the a-barge to shoot the spiders (where they would die to broadsides next turn) or kill the spiders with the wraiths. Necrons elected to send the wraiths to kill the spiders which is now going to take the wraiths out of combat for a turn or two. More importantly, d-lord is all alone now, so he can't go los shenanigans. This is going to give taudar a turn to kill the closer wraiths, and hopefully the two d-lords. If they can manage that on turn three, their turn 4 can be focused on killing the back unit of wraiths. Once the wraiths are gone taudar can start moving out to claim objectives.
I think the better line of play would have been to keep sending both units of wraiths at the taudar lines and turn around the a-barges to kill the spiders. If wraiths make it to taudar's reapers or broadsides necrons pretty much wins the game. You lose two a-barges but you gain the potential of the wraiths wiping out the taudar castle.
They (the spiders) could have been the unsung heroes....if only my wraiths didn't make their long charge.
As for the D-lord splitting up, that's actually a common tactic. Although I won't be able to LOS wounds, however, now you're talking about a T6 guy who is harder to kill via small-arms fire. Due to the lack of AP 1/2 guns in Adam's army, I really had nothing to fear by splitting him up.
mortetvie wrote: As an aside, Jim forgot to mention in his turn 2 commentary that my Riptide got a good hit with a Nova-charged Ion Accelerator and hit all 3 of his Barges in the middle and got 3 penetrating hits but Jim made all 3 of his Jink saves rolling 3 6s, insanity! Also, his Wraiths needed at least a 9" charge on my spiders (not a big difference) but he rolled something like a 10 lol; darn terrain ignoring wraiths rolling good for their charge moves! It was pretty hilarious watching his other Wraith unit fail the charge, though.
Ahhh...now I remember. It was a pretty crazy turn of events. You rolled 3 6's to pen all 3 of my AB's and then I rolled 3 6's to pass all 3 of my jink saves. Lol.
Marthike wrote: I finally have time to build a new army now, but with the ammount of new armies and lists Its making my head hurt. 6th ed is definatly not like 5th where the amount of competitive lists are less. Also probably because of all the new codexs comming so fast the meta is just changing so quickly, unless your playing frequently your not gonna keep up. I am 90% sure I am gonna build a necrowraith army (unless the new SM codex turns out to be the game changer) so I have faith that you will win.
Wraithwing is definitely a very strong army. As a matter of fact, I don't run it anymore in casual play. I only take it out if I am practicing for a tournament or if someone requests to play against it to practice for a tournament. IMO it is my strongest army currently.
I'm also interested in seeing how the new SM codex will be. I might have to dust off my Ravenguards and give them a go when it comes out.
SBG wrote: Your battle reports are fantastic! Thanks for taking the time to post them. I always learn something...
Thanks. There's more coming up very soon.
Red Corsair wrote: Worst table ever! Ha ha. Seriously, did it occur to factor those rocky outcrops into the terrain density at all? Looked like 40K on a necromunda table.
I think he did (eldar) well though considering he brought the same list and jy2 knew what was in it. Not saying jy2 wouldn't have brought the same list necessarily but knowing how his units operate before playing and fielding a new list is a pretty big edge. I would have liked to see his GT winning list against Mortivies with a few minor tweaks but sticking to single FOC like last year.
Either way I think he made some awful choices. Obviously the bikes were a huge mistake but I also think staying boxed in for as long as he did screwed him over. The NS should have gotten out of dodge by turn 5 and tried for an objective, the 3++ with holofields should have helped alot. I think trading the spiders for a AB was also a big blunder. I know others will disagree with me but I think DS them more conservatively so they can contest and score LB is a better option. Jy2 would still need to decide whether or not to deal with them but instead of sacing them for +1 BGNT point he could have gained +1 from LB and had them for late game. Outflanking the kroot would have been another interesting technique, he had plenty of scoring HS in his end he really needed to stretch jy2's army from turn 1 onward.
Also I understand it was testing but it really is a shame seeing proxied AB's knowing how many actual necron models jy2 owns. I mean why not 4 full units of wraiths for example? Just seemed like unnecessary proxying to spam more AB's.
Just my 2 cents worth, and great game! I would like to see a rematch aginst5 Reeces marines especially after the new codex drops!
I have played against a similar list run by Z1ns1t at our local RTT. I've basically played against (or played as) almost all flavors of eldar recently so I definitely won't be under-estimating them. My record against the new eldar isn't actually that great, though I admit that I've been running mainly experimental lists against them and not my actual tournament armies (until now). My single-FOC list might have actually given my opponent more problems than the dual-FOC one. Seems like he can take out AB's more easily than he can do wraiths.
The spiders was a good move. It wasn't supposed to be a "trade-off". It just turned out that way with a great charge by my wraiths. I would have done exactly as my opponent did with them.
I don't have 24 wraiths, nor do I want that many wraiths. That is problematic against flyer armies, especially if they are going 2nd in an objective-based game with troops inside. If you're going to spam, then 6 AB's is the best way to do so for necrons. However, 3x6 wraiths with 3 D-lords would be the other way to go if I didn't wanted to spam those AB's.
mortetvie wrote: Regarding the bikes and night spinner, that was my poor play I was talking about earlier, if I had used them like I usually do (and have done in my GTGT games), I would have been able to contest 2 of Jim's objectives and either claim one for myself or deny Jim the kill on the spinner for either a draw or win. Be that as it may, it was also a bummer my tau commander didn't make his hit & run test to contest another one of Jim's objectives .
Had you made your H&R to contest my objective, I still would have won, but it would have been 11-10 (my 2 objectives, 3 heavies, Linebreaker + Warlord vs 1 objective, 6 heavies and First Blood). I actually hadn't anticipated that. I was fortunate that the Commander failed. Then again, what's his Initiative? 3? It would've been a coin-flip for him getting out of combat.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: Quite the battle of the titans there, very well played on both sides.
lambsandlions wrote: Well played match. Here are the things I think could have been changed. These are based on what I read and saw, not being able to see the board los and distances may be off.
Eldar/tau:
1) Reapers should have focused on wraiths and d-lords rather than a-barges. Everything behind the aegis had amazing saves so the a-barges wouldn't be doing too much damage. The wraith and d-lord however were able to kill a whole unit every turn once they got to your side of the board.
2) Wraithgaurd should have got out of the waveserpent earlier. That expensive unit didn't really do much all game and could have helped fighting off those d-lords and wraiths.
3) Jet bikes boxed in. Now if their killing would have finished off a d-lord it would have been worth it but even then, they should have been spaced out more so hopefully one unit could get away.
Necrons:
1) Focusing down the riptide first. I dont think he was really doing anything where those could have killed a lot of reapers who were wreckin' yo stuff.
2) Sending wraiths after spiders. I think that you should have shot them with an a-barge.
3) Splitting of your d-lord so early. Luckily he didn't get killed but it but him in major jeopardy.
Overall I think that the necrons had a tougher list, with the wall of av13 and all those 3++ saves. Eldar/tau seems like it would murder anything with regular sv3+ like marines and other eldar lists but struggle against this necrons list. But it was a good exciting match.
Eldar/tau:
1) Reapers shooting at wraiths with a 2+ D-lord tanking the shots would have been a very inefficient way of using his firepower. I would not have done that, just as I didn't bother to shoot at his reapers....or broadsides....as long as there were other, more easily-killed targets.
2) His wraithguards were actually in reserve and came in on T2. There really was no reason for them to get out so early. The better play would be to get closer to the wraiths (but not so close that my wraiths could surround his serpent) and bait them into assaulting the serpent. Whether I kill it or not, my wraiths are then going to be clumped up and basically flamer-bait. Shoot and don't assault. Rather, let me assault into his Overwatch.
3) I would have just hid those bikes and try to go for last-minute objective contesting. IMO, the reward wasn't really worth the gamble with a 50% chance for my Lord to get back up. Moreover, there's no guarantee that you could canvas the entire area so that my Warlord couldn't get back up.
Necrons:
1) The reason for killing his riptide was two-fold. Firstly, he has good offense and is a threat to my mobility (flyers) with skyfire+interceptor. Second, he is a mobile unit that can potentially move 6"+5D6" (including run) to contest my objectives. I really didn't mind him wrecking my AB's. My goal was to kill off all of his mobility.
2) One of the mistakes a lot of players make is to not split up their wraithstar. Guys....other than my troops, none of my units are so valuable that they must live. In an objectives game, ALL non-troop units are sacrificial units. I was perfectly fine with sacrificing my non-Warlord Destroyer Lord (by splitting him off from the wraiths) in order to sic my wraiths after the spiders. Sending my barges (with 1 that might have been out of range) and my flyers (which would mean that I couldn't go after his other units that I wanted to go after) isn't a guarantee that I would be able to kill them off either. Overall, I felt it more efficient to try to chase them down with 1 unit of wraiths while going after the rest of his army with my shooting. Then, when my flyers go into Ongoing Reserves, if I needed to, I would go after the spiders when they come back in again.
3) See (2) above.
Yeah, wraithwing/flyer necrons is one of the few armies that can give eldar problems. Actually, they'll give almost any army out there problems.
Red Corsair wrote: Hey I understand mate. It's always easy to point out the mistakes in retrospect, but I think the game from it's incarnation had obvious issues as has been stated. Terrain, but also lists. I still don't understand his list really, it's one thing to design a challenging list and another to suck the enjoyment out both visually and interactively with so much spamming. I honestly think he could have put together a better list using his 4th unit of wraiths (again spamming ) and possibly allies.
You'll get him next time though I think it would be the most enlightening if you both designed entirely new lists and went head to head as if it were an actual surprise at an event.
Also, armies are looking good!
The next time we face (Mortetvie and I), it will be with a single-FOC list, though it may not necessarily be with my necrons.
Valek wrote: At 2K points , this would be the list I would bring:
1 Destroyer Lord w/ Mindshackles, Semp Weave
1 Destroyer Lord w/ Mindshackles, Semp Weave
1 Chaos Sorcerer
some choises, the sorcerer with shriek is a nice deterrent for stupid bike/coversave linkebreakers.
The Helldrake really shines, it is a good at killing troops but will add anti tank to take out those nasty coversaveserpents.
If needed he can hover turn its tail and fry something backline (in that game the spiders would be the perfect assault.
And if not for that the helldrake is just a weapon of Terror!! it influences players moves/set ups and decissions.
3 units of wraiths, 4 barges, 3 planes shoud present enough targets.
Nasty list. With CSM allies, I'd probably just go single-FOC and try to max out on the wraiths:
Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS, Res Orb - 190 (Warlord)
Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS - 160
Chaos Sorcerer
SkaredCast wrote: I really liked that table! Impassable, and LOS blocking terrain that breaks up the board is super fun and makes the game a lot more tactical.
Aesthetically, it is very pleasing to the eye. But it isn't the most practical of tables terrain-wise.
I think if we were able to break down the larger LOS-blocking terrain to the right....maybe into smaller pieces of terrain and then spread them out....it would have been better.
SkaredCast wrote: I really liked that table! Impassable, and LOS blocking terrain that breaks up the board is super fun and makes the game a lot more tactical.
But completely useless for a tournament player when your never ever gonna get that in a tournament, so its not good practice for them.
Anyway, good report i been waiting for your reports jy2 and this is perfect
Thanks! I've got my ATC Tournament report coming out maybe as early as tomorrow.
mortetvie wrote: Next time you are in SoCal we definitely have to get a game in .
Also, I definitely agree with the general comments about how I used the wraithguard, bikes and night spinner. Regarding the riptide, however, there was so much terrain that that was the only place to deploy it without neutering his LOS, I deployed first so I couldn't risk Jim counter deploying to make the riptide useless. Regarding the bikes, it was a fun gamble to see if they could tend the dlord and if they would have rended, I had some models I could have ran over his corpse so the dlord couldn't get back up... But I have since learnt that the sure plan is generally better than the risky one (despite the potentially greater rewards).
All in all, the Night Spinner was a random addition I added because I didn't have extra spiders or other units to bring my 1850 list up to 2k :(. In the GTGT, I routinely wished the night spinner was a warp hunter or another unit of spiders...
So thank you once again for the game, Jim and until next time .
Yeah, the spinner can be good at times, but its a more situational unit. Warp hunter, war walkers, more spiders or even a wraithknight would have been nasty! Should've borrowed one of your friend's 5 warp hunters. I thought that was overkill. Lol. Or you could have ran a Nightwing. That's another very nasty unit.
Our game might have been different had you been running an army setup that you really wanted to run as opposed to one that was limited with the models you had.
Tough battle, I had a feeling the crons would outlast them and deal with objectives.
I just dont get going after that riptide. I'd have focused the reapers, since they were popping a barge a turn, wounding them on a 2+, eventually netting warlord and a heavy suport, even with the same 2+ armor or cover to contend with?
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum.
2013/08/19 05:32:26
Subject: 2K Golden Throne Reigning Champ vs Ex-Champ - Mortetvie's Eldar/Tau vs Jy2's Necrons (Completed)
iGuy91 wrote: Tough battle, I had a feeling the crons would outlast them and deal with objectives.
I just dont get going after that riptide. I'd have focused the reapers, since they were popping a barge a turn, wounding them on a 2+, eventually netting warlord and a heavy suport, even with the same 2+ armor or cover to contend with?
Sometimes, you get too caught up in the little details and you miss out on the bigger picture. Yeah, if I went after that unit, eventually I would kill off the DR's for +1 VP as well as his Warlord. I may even save 1 or 2 of my barges as well. However, I am putting my flyers at risk. A flyer who lives to drop off troops on an objective or within contesting range of an enemy objective is worth 3 VP's. Also, how many shots do I need to take in order to wipe out that unit? Here is why I went after the riptide as opposed the his mini-deathstar.
1. The riptide is 5 2+ Wounds before you finish him off. Before I get to the DR's, I need to go through 6 2+ cover wounds (Tau Commander + 2 drones). Both takes about the same amount of resources to kill (because I am wounding the commander on 2+ and the riptide on 3+ with teslas). But here's the thing though. I finish off the riptide and he's only got 1 unit shooting next turn. I finish off the commander and he's still got 2 units firing the next turn - the riptide and the DR's - and they will continue to do so for probably another 2 turns or longer. Thus, I go after the riptide and I've cut down his offense dramatically. I go after the DR's and I've hardly affected his shooting at all.
2. The riptide is a huge threat to my objectives with his mobility. He could potentially move 36" in 1 turn if I let him live.
3. The firepower of the riptide is a threat as well. He can insta-kill my wraiths as well as take out the barges.
4. Take out the riptide and I've just removed a threat to my mobility. With Interceptor + Skyfire, he is a huge threat to my flyers and thus, my strategy of dropping my guys off for the last turn objective grab/contest.
5. Why waste my precious firepower on the DR's when I can kill them in assault with my 2 deathstars? They won't be able to run away. The riptide, on the other hand, can. At the very least, he can draw my wraiths away, thus allowing his mini-deathstar more time to shoot down my other units.
6. I hate those damn riptides. They deserved to die first.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/19 05:33:30
iGuy91 wrote: Tough battle, I had a feeling the crons would outlast them and deal with objectives.
I just dont get going after that riptide. I'd have focused the reapers, since they were popping a barge a turn, wounding them on a 2+, eventually netting warlord and a heavy suport, even with the same 2+ armor or cover to contend with?
Sometimes, you get too caught up in the little details and you miss out on the bigger picture. Yeah, if I went after that unit, eventually I would kill off the DR's for +1 VP as well as his Warlord. I may even save 1 or 2 of my barges as well. However, I am putting my flyers at risk. A flyer who lives to drop off troops on an objective or within contesting range of an enemy objective is worth 3 VP's. Also, how many shots do I need to take in order to wipe out that unit? Here is why I went after the riptide as opposed the his mini-deathstar.
1. The riptide is 5 2+ Wounds before you finish him off. Before I get to the DR's, I need to go through 6 2+ cover wounds (Tau Commander + 2 drones). Both takes about the same amount of resources to kill (because I am wounding the commander on 2+ and the riptide on 3+ with teslas). But here's the thing though. I finish off the riptide and he's only got 1 unit shooting next turn. I finish off the commander and he's still got 2 units firing the next turn - the riptide and the DR's - and they will continue to do so for probably another 2 turns or longer. Thus, I go after the riptide and I've cut down his offense dramatically. I go after the DR's and I've hardly affected his shooting at all.
2. The riptide is a huge threat to my objectives with his mobility. He could potentially move 36" in 1 turn if I let him live.
3. The firepower of the riptide is a threat as well. He can insta-kill my wraiths as well as take out the barges.
4. Take out the riptide and I've just removed a threat to my mobility. With Interceptor + Skyfire, he is a huge threat to my flyers and thus, my strategy of dropping my guys off for the last turn objective grab/contest.
5. Why waste my precious firepower on the DR's when I can kill them in assault with my 2 deathstars? They won't be able to run away. The riptide, on the other hand, can. At the very least, he can draw my wraiths away, thus allowing his mini-deathstar more time to shoot down my other units.
6. I hate those damn riptides. They deserved to die first.
Fair enough sir, I am convinced. I wouldn't have thought of that.
And yes, they deserve to die first lol.
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum.
2013/08/21 17:30:45
Subject: 2K Golden Throne Reigning Champ vs Ex-Champ - Mortetvie's Eldar/Tau vs Jy2's Necrons (Completed)
Fair enough sir, I am convinced. I wouldn't have thought of that.
And yes, they deserve to die first lol.
Ironically, I don't always kill them first. I usually kill what is more efficient. In this case, it was actually more efficient to kill the riptide than the dark reapers. In other games, I sometimes kill the riptides last in favor of easier prey.
Terrain being bad or not, it certainly looked neat.
It's a little hard to tell, as it's not really mentioned, but the eldar player looked like he had terrible die rolls. His "critical to offense" bikes failed all their reserve rolls (while you got your stuff in right away), his Icarus lascannon failed to do anything until after it was too late, and he didn't get any crucial rends. And the eldar psychic powers seemed to do nothing whatsoever as well.
As mentioned, you have to sort of guess at the all-important die rolls, but it seemed pretty tough for the taudar player here.
Yeah, terrain looked really great. I really had no problems with it....but then again, it favored my army more than it did for my opponent. The "hills" were tall enough to give even flyers cover (and 4+ cover at that) and there were plenty of LOS-blocking terrain to make it a nightmare for some gunline, shooty armies to play in.
Actually, my opponent's dice wasn't too bad. His jetbikes coming in late actually benefitted him and he was destroying 1 AB per turn, which was statistically average. He also had enough firepower to almost wipe out my Warlord's wraithstar unit. Fortunately for me, my Warlord got back up. His only really "bad" dice IMO was when his guardian jetbikes failed to rend my Warlord to death, but other than that, I don't think his dice was particularly bad. BTW, his Icarus did its job. It was just that I was making my 4+ cover from the "hills". Then again, I positioned my scythes such that I would be getting that type of cover from his Interceptor fire.
His psychic powers was used mainly to twin-link all his shooting. His Spiritseer, however, did heal 2-3W from his Tau Commander (and perhaps riptide) with Renewer. Overall, his psykers were doing their job. I just didn't really mention it.
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
) and possibly allies.
I think it would be the most enlightening if you both designed entirely new lists and went head to head as if it were an actual surprise at an event.
4000 pts
