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Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 Frazzled wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
 Seaward wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
You seem to have a serious axe to grind, Seaward.

Not at all. I'd simply like your government to shut up once it's decided it's not going to do anything.


Just like yours right?


I don't think the current President ever shuts up...ever...


With each passing day, Obama seems to be slowly transforming in Jimmy Carter Mark 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ketara wrote:
I'm gonna be honest, I don't generally consider headlines from the Daily Fail to be admissible as a serious counter-argument.

But eh. You seem pretty set in your mode of thinking, so I won't waste both of our time trying to discuss it further.


Fair enough. There's been a lot of talk about Britain's diminishing influence on the world stage, handing back the deputy sheriff's badge, third rate power etc but I for one am glad. We both know that this great nation has plenty at home to occupy it with, without the need for foreign adventures. That we can both agree on. I hope!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/30 14:50:45


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The US military dropped plenty of nasty stuff on Vietnamese civilians. This is not a historical points scoring game, but no country can criticise another for doing things said country has also done.


My response is.. don't let the little flag fool you. It's where the proxy server is (and mods refuse to correct it). As a citizen of SNI rather than USA (You remember us, right, your allies you fethed at the treaty of Versailles?) I have lots of room to find fault the USA for it's political, moral, and economic failings...

But hey, what would a bunch of dirty savages (and their occasional half Irish children) know about being allowed to die horribly while other countries, including their former allies, stand around and do nothing?

I will say that it is humorous to see that Frenchmen seem to have more courage from their convictions than Englishmen do these days.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/30 15:07:00



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Fair enough. There's been a lot of talk about Britain's diminishing influence on the world stage, handing back the deputy sheriff's badge, third rate power etc but I for one am glad. We both know that this great nation has plenty at home to occupy it with, without the need for foreign adventures. That we can both agree on. I hope!


Curiously enough, this concept of Britain as a 'declining power', is actually coming to be seen now for what it is, e,g. inaccurate. We're one of the greatest economic powers in the West, the only nation capable of mounting an invasion overseas independently apart from America, and a GDP that's more than a little impressive.

But I would quite agree that we have better things to waste my tax money on than funding Al Qaeda in Syria, or dropping vastly expensive missiles with no real aim or purpose bar negligible political goals.

Regardless of whether or not Cameron scored an own goal or not, I think things have worked out just perfectly for us. And he's gone up in my estimation regardless, as either he's a very slick statesman, or he's seriously prepared to consult the House of Commons instead of just invoking the Royal Prerogative. Either one is a pro in my eyes.


 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Hammerer





The Brits got this right, I'm hoping we follow the same path.

Check out my trades http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/515178.page

Check out my Auctions

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/521603.page 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 BaronIveagh wrote:
My response is.. don't let the little flag fool you. It's where the proxy server is (and mods refuse to correct it). As a citizen of SNI rather than USA (You remember us, right, your allies you fethed at the treaty of Versailles?) I have lots of room to find fault the USA for it's political, moral, and economic failings...

Pardon my ignorance, but SNI?

 
   
Made in gb
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander





Ramsden Heath, Essex

Scotland and Northern Irelend?

Hardly big players!

How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " 
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
My response is.. don't let the little flag fool you. It's where the proxy server is (and mods refuse to correct it). As a citizen of SNI rather than USA (You remember us, right, your allies you fethed at the treaty of Versailles?) I have lots of room to find fault the USA for it's political, moral, and economic failings...

Pardon my ignorance, but SNI?


The SNI I know is that Seneca Nation of Indians, but I don't recall them being in the Treaty of Versailles.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





Glasgow

How many countries have Syrian civilian blood on their hands now? Is this conflict now a justification for the legalisation of chemical weaponry?

 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Ahtman wrote:

The SNI I know is that Seneca Nation of Indians, but I don't recall them being in the Treaty of Versailles.


No, we were not. Which was the point. England, instead of including it's allies in the treaty or insisting on any provisions for them, pretty much left everyone to swing.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in nl
Decrepit Dakkanaut






 Mr Hyena wrote:
How many countries have Syrian civilian blood on their hands now? Is this conflict now a justification for the legalisation of chemical weaponry?


Yes, this is obviously the truth.

If you want to troll at least try and make it halfway believable.
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Soladrin wrote:

If you want to troll at least try and make it halfway believable.


Well, no, he has a point. If there' no enforcement of bans on chemical weapons, they're not bans, they're suggestions. If there's no repercussions for using them, they might as well be legal.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





Glasgow

 Soladrin wrote:
 Mr Hyena wrote:
How many countries have Syrian civilian blood on their hands now? Is this conflict now a justification for the legalisation of chemical weaponry?


Yes, this is obviously the truth.

If you want to troll at least try and make it halfway believable.


If Law isn't enforced, then its an Unenforceable Law.

 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!



To me... this is proof that the criticism of Bush's Pakistan/Iraq engagements were for partisan political purposes.

I hereby announce, Nancy Pelosi the neo-warhawk:
Nancy Pelosi the hawk tells President Obama to act on Syria
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi pressed top administration officials Thursday night to take military action to punish Syrian President Bashar Assad in response to reports that he used chemical weapons in his nation’s ongoing civil war.

“It is clear that the American people are weary of war. However, Assad gassing his own people is an issue of our national security, regional stability and global security,” Pelosi said in a statement after the 90-minute conference call with members of the National Security Council and 26 high-ranking lawmakers.

The White House organized the conference call — which was unclassified because of a lack of secure phone lines — at a time when congressional demands for more information on both the intelligence regarding the alleged chemical weapons attack and President Barack Obama’s plans for a military response are growing.

House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) was more measured than Pelosi in his approach, according to Democratic sources familiar with the call. Boehner, along with Pelosi and other lawmakers from both sides of the aisle, emphasized the need for administration officials to continue consulting with Congress —essentially saying Obama would be better served by working harder to win over Congress before launching military strikes.

But then, according to another source, Pelosi shifted gears. Pelosi “said we should do something,” the second source said, adding that Pelosi was advocating “for action.”

Boehner’s office declined to comment for this story.

National Security Adviser Susan Rice, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, Secretary of State John Kerry, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper and Sandy Winnefeld, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, represented the administration.

Several party leaders from each chamber joined the call, as did most chairmen and ranking minority members of relevant authorizing and appropriating committees and subcommittees. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and Minority Leader Mitch McConnell were notably absent from the list of lawmakers released by the White House.

The leaders of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Bob Menendez (D-N.J.) and Bob Corker (R-Tenn.), both endorsed the use of force in Syria in statements released after the call.

But their counterparts on the Armed Services Committee, Carl Levin (D-Mich.) and Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.), were less bellicose. Levin said the president should seek international support for a mission against Assad, and Inhofe remains opposed to any intervention.

”As I have said before, no red line should have even been drawn without first preparing a strategic plan and assessing our resources,” Inhofe said.

The call, part of what the White House describes as “robust” consultation with Congress, included a set of lawmakers who are seemingly much warmer to Obama’s consideration of reprisal strikes against the Assad regime.

Despite the challenges of acquiring lawmakers’ signatures during the August recess, two missives demanding a congressional debate have gained steam in recent days on Capitol Hill. One, spearheaded by Rep. Scott Rigell (R-Va.) and carrying the support of 140 House Republicans and Democrats, demands that the administration seek authorization from Congress before striking Syria. The other, drafted by Rep. Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) and supported by 54 Democrats, urges Obama to come to Congress for approval of military action.

The growing frustration in Congress mirrors that in the British Parliament where a Thursday vote rejected Prime Minister David Cameron’s efforts to join a coalition for the use of force in Syria. But Obama is ready to go it alone if he can’t get international support.

“The officials made clear that the administration’s focus is on preventing Assad from using chemical weapons again,” a Senate aide told POLITICO. “The administration is figuring out the best way to do that, and is seeking as much international support as possible but won’t let that dictate what our policy will be.”



Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 whembly wrote:
To me... this is proof that the criticism of Bush's Pakistan/Iraq engagements were for partisan political purposes.


The only way these are are connected, ironically I suppose, is if you are engaging in a partisan political attack. The circumstances are quite different between the two, not just broad strokes, but also in salient details. It is very easy to be for both, against both, or for one and not the other, as they are not similar enough to pretend otherwise. If you want to attack Pelosi for being silly attack her for that, but it seems odd to try and dredge the horribly mauled jus in bello that the Bush administration used in a different time and a different context just to try and justify your dislike. She is thoroughly dis-likable enough without having to go through all that trouble.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in gb
Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

 Mr Hyena wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
 Mr Hyena wrote:
How many countries have Syrian civilian blood on their hands now? Is this conflict now a justification for the legalisation of chemical weaponry?


Yes, this is obviously the truth.

If you want to troll at least try and make it halfway believable.


If Law isn't enforced, then its an Unenforceable Law.


Is Syria a signatory?
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 Mr Hyena wrote:
How many countries have Syrian civilian blood on their hands now? Is this conflict now a justification for the legalisation of chemical weaponry?


None?

Syria isn't even a signatory to the CWC so no country has any obligation to regulate their use of chemical weapons...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:

If you want to troll at least try and make it halfway believable.


Well, no, he has a point. If there' no enforcement of bans on chemical weapons, they're not bans, they're suggestions. If there's no repercussions for using them, they might as well be legal.


You can't enforce a ban on chemical weapons on a country that didn't even sign the treaty in the first place!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/30 16:54:20


 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





Glasgow

PhantomViper wrote:
 Mr Hyena wrote:
How many countries have Syrian civilian blood on their hands now? Is this conflict now a justification for the legalisation of chemical weaponry?


None?

Syria isn't even a signatory to the CWC so no country has any obligation to regulate their use of chemical weapons...


Why would it make any difference signing a paper or not as to the morality of chem weapons?

Is the Genocide that Assad is inflicting legal then, since nothing was signed?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/30 16:56:08


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Ahtman wrote:
 whembly wrote:
To me... this is proof that the criticism of Bush's Pakistan/Iraq engagements were for partisan political purposes.


The only way these are are connected, ironically I suppose, is if you are engaging in a partisan political attack. The circumstances are quite different between the two, not just broad strokes, but also in salient details. It is very easy to be for both, against both, or for one and not the other, as they are not similar enough to pretend otherwise. If you want to attack Pelosi for being silly attack her for that, but it seems odd to try and dredge the horribly mauled jus in bello that the Bush administration used in a different time and a different context just to try and justify your dislike. She is thoroughly dis-likable enough without having to go through all that trouble.


You don't see the irony?

Please take off that anti-Bush / Pro-Democrat glasses... m'kay?

If anything, borrow d-usa's #YOLO spiffy shades.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 Mr Hyena wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
 Mr Hyena wrote:
How many countries have Syrian civilian blood on their hands now? Is this conflict now a justification for the legalisation of chemical weaponry?


None?

Syria isn't even a signatory to the CWC so no country has any obligation to regulate their use of chemical weapons...


Why would it make any difference signing a paper or not as to the morality of chem weapons?


What does morality has to do with international politics?
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 whembly wrote:
You don't see the irony?


There is irony here, but not where you seem to think.

 whembly wrote:
Please take off that anti-Bush / Pro-Democrat glasses... m'kay?


Yeah, half my post was about Pelosi being an idiot, but I'm pro-Democrat.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





Glasgow

PhantomViper wrote:
 Mr Hyena wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
 Mr Hyena wrote:
How many countries have Syrian civilian blood on their hands now? Is this conflict now a justification for the legalisation of chemical weaponry?


None?

Syria isn't even a signatory to the CWC so no country has any obligation to regulate their use of chemical weapons...


Why would it make any difference signing a paper or not as to the morality of chem weapons?


What does morality has to do with international politics?


World War 2 showed what an effect Morality has. Syria's situation and the Final Solution has a lot of parallels.

I don't see what is the point banning Chemical Weapons from signed countries, if they are considered ok for use.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/30 16:59:22


 
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 Mr Hyena wrote:
Is the Genocide that Assad is inflicting legal then, since nothing was signed?


Please stop trying to use "argumentum ad passiones" as a logical discussion tool, they are quite transparent and just make it seem like you have nothing else to add.
   
Made in gb
Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

 Mr Hyena wrote:
Syria's situation and the Final Solution has a lot of parallels.



Really? we have reached that stage in this thread?
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





Glasgow

 Mr. Burning wrote:
 Mr Hyena wrote:
Syria's situation and the Final Solution has a lot of parallels.



Really? we have reached that stage in this thread?


Do you disagree that gassing civilians in a systematic manner occured in both instances?

 
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 Mr Hyena wrote:

World War 2 showed what an effect Morality has. Syria's situation and the Final Solution has a lot of parallels.


What did WW2 had to do with morality? England entered WW2 because they were Poland allies and Germany had invaded Poland. The US entered WW2 because they were attacked by Japan that was allied with Germany... What morality do you see in any of these actions exactly?!

 Mr Hyena wrote:

I don't see what is the point banning Chemical Weapons from signed countries, if they are considered ok for use.


You can't enforce a treaty on someone that hasn't signed it.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Ahtman wrote:
 whembly wrote:
You don't see the irony?


There is irony here, but not where you seem to think.

Where do you see the irony?

 whembly wrote:
Please take off that anti-Bush / Pro-Democrat glasses... m'kay?


Yeah, half my post was about Pelosi being an idiot, but I'm pro-Democrat.

You fooled me. My apologies. And yes, I'm picking on Pelosi...

Just wanted to see that for those who voted/support Obama...you got what you wanted. You got the charismatic, multiracial, multicultural president... who would heal the wounds left by that loathsome monster George Bush\Darth Cheney\Haliburton\whatever... Who would bring peace to the world and stop the rising oceans and Global Warming(TM). And now here he is, on the verge of starting yet another war without the approval of Congress. (Remember Libya?) [disclaimer: He doesn't need it... but, as Senator Obama, he would want it]

I’m not going to claim I know the best course of action in Syria... I can see both sides. It appears that it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't". And if that's the case, I'd rather be in the "damned if you do" camp...

I’m just waiting for the people who shrieked for 10 years about the invasion of Iraq to tell me why this time it’s different. Pay attention as they try to reconcile the cognitive dissonance.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






I thought they were just dropping chemical weapons on them like bombs, not rounding them up and putting them in to a death factory. There was more to Holocaust then just killing people, and your definition of 'systematically manner' is so broad that it seems any conflict ever would qualify as being the same as The Final Solution.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in gb
Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

 Mr Hyena wrote:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
 Mr Hyena wrote:
Syria's situation and the Final Solution has a lot of parallels.



Really? we have reached that stage in this thread?


Do you disagree that gassing civilians in a systematic manner occured in both instances?


You would be better off comparing the use of any firearm, in any period, anywhere to kill a civilian as being the same as the acts of German police battalions against the Jewish populations of Eastern Europe.

Yes, I deny that Syria is gassing anyone systematically.
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Ahtman wrote:
I thought they were just dropping chemical weapons on them like bombs, not rounding them up and putting them in to a death factory. There was more to Holocaust then just killing people, and your definition of 'systematically manner' is so broad that it seems any conflict ever would qualify as being the same as The Final Solution.


There was more to it than Death Factories too. Read the Jager Report sometime for a look into how the Holocaust was carried out in the field, rather than in the camps (be prepared to lose sleep at night). He's not wrong in that there are similarities, but there are a lot of differences as well. A better comparison might be made to things like the suppression of Warsaw.

As far as Godwin-ing the thread goes: frankly we're talking about war crimes and slaughtering civilians, and a relevant comparison to an action by the Nazis is exempt in that situation.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

I have to repsect the British system. The PM actually called a vote and the Parliament actually voted.

In the US - the land of Freedom HURR!-no call to vote.
in the US the Congress doesn't unilaterally meet to discuss the issue.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
 
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