Switch Theme:

Hundreds (allegedly) dead in Syrian chemical weapons attack  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 djones520 wrote:
Patriotism isn't something to be proud of now a days. Didn't you get the memo?


Oh I'm not a patriot. But I'm not opposed to patriotism. It makes me a little sad though, to see it wane. I feel like it's something that should be there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/17 05:48:18


 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 djones520 wrote:
Not nearly to the scale though. You've got a largely 3rd world region, with very ignorant populations, it's easy for these "leaders" to twist the populace to their perveted message. It's endemic to that region. I firmly believe that until Islam manages to centralize itself, much like Christianity did with the Catholic Church, these problems will persist and will constantly be an issue for us.


I think the Reformation is a pretty strong argument that a central church doesn't really solve that problem. You can basically describe the reformation as a response to the Church's manipulation of the superstition of the general population for its own benefit, and also just for a bit of pointless cruelty. The Protestant movements that rose up in response then set about proving that such manipulation and pointless cruely wasn't just a Catholic thing.

So I don't think we can conclude that a central church is really what dragged Christianity forward. Instead, I'd look at a few centuries of improving education and economic prosperity as the main answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 xole wrote:
So instead of taking a narrow view of democracy and a broad view of republic you are taking a broad view of democracy and a narrow view of republic.


No, he's not 'taking' any kind of definition. He's giving you the actual defintions - what the words actually mean.

I'll repeat the cheat sheet;

Democracy - people cast a vote, giving them a say in how they are governed.
Republic - the head of state isn't a hereditary position.

Example of a country that is both a democracy and a republic - The United States of America
Example of a country that is a democracy, but not a republic - The United Kingdom
Example of a country that is a republic, but not a democracy - Zimbabwe
Example of a country that is neither a republic nor a democracy - The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/17 06:08:14


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 sebster wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
Not nearly to the scale though. You've got a largely 3rd world region, with very ignorant populations, it's easy for these "leaders" to twist the populace to their perveted message. It's endemic to that region. I firmly believe that until Islam manages to centralize itself, much like Christianity did with the Catholic Church, these problems will persist and will constantly be an issue for us.


I think the Reformation is a pretty strong argument that a central church doesn't really solve that problem. You can basically describe the reformation as a response to the Church's manipulation of the superstition of the general population for its own benefit, and also just for a bit of pointless cruelty. The Protestant movements that rose up in response then set about proving that such manipulation and pointless cruely wasn't just a Catholic thing.

So I don't think we can conclude that a central church is really what dragged Christianity forward. Instead, I'd look at a few centuries of improving education and economic prosperity as the main answer.



Well the answer is hardly as simple as "central authority = peace and happiness", but it's where the start would occur. You can't have a reformation if you have a a bakers dozen of tin pot dictator clerics preaching for their own benefits, without someone "higher up" saying that it's wrong.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 xole wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 xole wrote:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.".




And how does a slogan written 105 years after the Constitution in order to sell more flags declare that we are not a democracy?

Our status as a republic was never questioned by me, I have pretty much affirmed the fact that we don't have a monarch as our head of state in almost all my posts.


So instead of taking a narrow view of democracy and a broad view of republic you are taking a broad view of democracy and a narrow view of republic.


No.

I have an issue with people who keep on saying "we are not a democracy". Because it is 100% wrong.
Being a republic only means that we don't have a monarch as our head of state. It has nothing to do with how we pick our head of state.

Just to make my position clear about the whole "republic" thing:

I, d-usa, fully acknowledge that the United States of America is a republic.

And we are also a democracy.

Which is why I get pissed when people keep on repeating the bs "we are not a democracy" line.

Especially since we practice both representative and direct democracy in our republic.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 djones520 wrote:


Patriotism isn't something to be proud of now a days. Didn't you get the memo?


Sometimes the line between Patriotism and Nationalism is very narrow and blurry, and that can become a dangerous thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/17 06:16:24


 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

Democratic-Republic is how I've best seen it described.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 djones520 wrote:
Democratic-Republic is how I've best seen it described.


Does that make the "we are not a democracy..." statement true or false?
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 djones520 wrote:
Well the answer is hardly as simple as "central authority = peace and happiness", but it's where the start would occur. You can't have a reformation if you have a a bakers dozen of tin pot dictator clerics preaching for their own benefits, without someone "higher up" saying that it's wrong.


What? Dude, the Reformation was basically people rejecting that there was anyone 'higher up' other than God.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/17 06:39:29


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 sebster wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
Well the answer is hardly as simple as "central authority = peace and happiness", but it's where the start would occur. You can't have a reformation if you have a a bakers dozen of tin pot dictator clerics preaching for their own benefits, without someone "higher up" saying that it's wrong.


What? Dude, the Reformation people rejecting that there was anyone 'higher up' other than God.


Reformation within Islam... I'm not trying to draw a direct comparison between the two topics. I'm saying the way Islam is right now will never work to bring the middle east into a 1st world status. Something needs to be done to change things.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 d-usa wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
Democratic-Republic is how I've best seen it described.


Does that make the "we are not a democracy..." statement true or false?


It would make it true.

Democracy is a distinct form of government from a Democratic-Republic.

The latter takes many principals from Democracy and Republics and makes something different that is neither a Republic nor a Democracy, but a mixture of both.


A puppy that's half Poodle and half Pug is neither Poodle nor Pug, its a combination of the two. saying the puppy is a Poodle would be 100% incorrect.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 djones520 wrote:
Reformation within Islam... I'm not trying to draw a direct comparison between the two topics. I'm saying the way Islam is right now will never work to bring the middle east into a 1st world status. Something needs to be done to change things.


I know you weren't trying to draw a direct parallel between the two - I was the one trying to do that. Or at least, I was trying to get you to look at the state of the church when it was under central leadership. Because if you look at the state of the church in the 16th century then you'll see people doing and saying stuff that would make the crazy nonsense said today by a fringe of Islam look progressive.

Being under central leadership didn't progress the church, nor did it facilitate the economic progress that advanced society as a whole. So I think you're really putting the bull before the horns - it isn't 'reform Islam and Islamic society will come along with it' but 'reform Islamic society and Islam will come along with it'.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 sebster wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
Reformation within Islam... I'm not trying to draw a direct comparison between the two topics. I'm saying the way Islam is right now will never work to bring the middle east into a 1st world status. Something needs to be done to change things.


I know you weren't trying to draw a direct parallel between the two - I was the one trying to do that. Or at least, I was trying to get you to look at the state of the church when it was under central leadership. Because if you look at the state of the church in the 16th century then you'll see people doing and saying stuff that would make the crazy nonsense said today by a fringe of Islam look progressive.

Being under central leadership didn't progress the church, nor did it facilitate the economic progress that advanced society as a whole. So I think you're really putting the bull before the horns - it isn't 'reform Islam and Islamic society will come along with it' but 'reform Islamic society and Islam will come along with it'.


Islam was a lot more moderate when there was a nominal central authority though. There hasn't been one since the Ottoman Empire collapsed, and following that we saw our rise of radical Islam to the extreme that it is at today. Maybe it wouldn't be a perfect solution, but what would be?

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Grey Templar wrote:
It would make it true.

Democracy is a distinct form of government from a Democratic-Republic.

The latter takes many principals from Democracy and Republics and makes something different that is neither a Republic nor a Democracy, but a mixture of both.


A puppy that's half Poodle and half Pug is neither Poodle nor Pug, its a combination of the two. saying the puppy is a Poodle would be 100% incorrect.


You're just wrong and I really don't know how many more times I have to explain it. What's actually happened is that someone has asked 'is that a poodle' and you replied 'no, it's a puppy', thinking somehow that if its a puppy then that's all it can be.

Somehow you've got it stuck in your head that a society's status as a democracy is somehow dependant on its status as a republic. When in reality, just like a dog can be both a poodle and a puppy, just one of the two, or neither, a government can be both a democracy and a republic, just one of the two, or neither.

In fact, it can even be a puppy for a time and then stop being a puppy, but remain a poodle the whole time. Just like the UK was neither a republic nor a democracy... and then became a democracy by granting people the right to choose parliament... while remaining a republic because the monarch remained head of state.

And just like Australia has been a democracy since foundation, and now sometimes flirts with the idea of becoming a republic - no longer having the Queen as our head of state. We have asked this question as a referendum (a democratic process...) and if we ever say yes, we'll start being a republic while remaining just as much a democracy as we used to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 djones520 wrote:
Islam was a lot more moderate when there was a nominal central authority though. There hasn't been one since the Ottoman Empire collapsed, and following that we saw our rise of radical Islam to the extreme that it is at today. Maybe it wouldn't be a perfect solution, but what would be?


The roots of Wahhabism are about 200 years before the fall of the Ottoman Empire, so I'm not sure it's really a root cause.

I agree there's no perfect solution, but I think all that can be done is to continue to encourage reform and modernisation in Islamic states. Look to the steady progress made by the likes of Jordan. I like the comment made by another poster in the thread about racism in the wake of an Indian girl winning Miss America - the reason we see that kind of insane, reactionary hate is because those people are losing. The same can be said of the extreme parts of Islam - they see the changes slowly working through their society and they do not like them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/17 07:29:13


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 djones520 wrote:
 sebster wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
Reformation within Islam... I'm not trying to draw a direct comparison between the two topics. I'm saying the way Islam is right now will never work to bring the middle east into a 1st world status. Something needs to be done to change things.


I know you weren't trying to draw a direct parallel between the two - I was the one trying to do that. Or at least, I was trying to get you to look at the state of the church when it was under central leadership. Because if you look at the state of the church in the 16th century then you'll see people doing and saying stuff that would make the crazy nonsense said today by a fringe of Islam look progressive.

Being under central leadership didn't progress the church, nor did it facilitate the economic progress that advanced society as a whole. So I think you're really putting the bull before the horns - it isn't 'reform Islam and Islamic society will come along with it' but 'reform Islamic society and Islam will come along with it'.


Islam was a lot more moderate when there was a nominal central authority though. There hasn't been one since the Ottoman Empire collapsed, and following that we saw our rise of radical Islam to the extreme that it is at today. Maybe it wouldn't be a perfect solution, but what would be?


Forcibly converting everyone to Pastafarianism or burning them alive.

Would solve most of our problems in a hurry. After that we'd only have to deal with a high starch diet, which we pretty much do anyways.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 BaronIveagh wrote:
 djones520 wrote:

The problem with that part of the world is that those types do get followers, who then proceed to do things like suicide bomb schools, fly planes into buildings, etc...


I might also point out they get them in the US too. Who shoot up schools, murder doctors, etc...


Yes, there have been mutliple Muslim terrorists here too. I'm sure you were trying to make another point, but it was stupid.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

 sebster wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
Not nearly to the scale though. You've got a largely 3rd world region, with very ignorant populations, it's easy for these "leaders" to twist the populace to their perveted message. It's endemic to that region. I firmly believe that until Islam manages to centralize itself, much like Christianity did with the Catholic Church, these problems will persist and will constantly be an issue for us.


I think the Reformation is a pretty strong argument that a central church doesn't really solve that problem. You can basically describe the reformation as a response to the Church's manipulation of the superstition of the general population for its own benefit, and also just for a bit of pointless cruelty. The Protestant movements that rose up in response then set about proving that such manipulation and pointless cruely wasn't just a Catholic thing.


Considering what the results of the Reformation (MORE pointless cruelty and manipulation of the superstitions of the general population, etc) then yes I'd say that conclusion is fairly well founded for any central religious movement. Especially when that movement has political/temporal power in some form. For more on this, see the evolution of Satan through out the rise of Christianity, but most importantly his transformation from being in a cell in hell's high security wing to an active aggressor against humanity during the Middle Ages.



 sebster wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Islam was a lot more moderate when there was a nominal central authority though. There hasn't been one since the Ottoman Empire collapsed, and following that we saw our rise of radical Islam to the extreme that it is at today. Maybe it wouldn't be a perfect solution, but what would be?


The roots of Wahhabism are about 200 years before the fall of the Ottoman Empire, so I'm not sure it's really a root cause.

I agree there's no perfect solution, but I think all that can be done is to continue to encourage reform and modernisation in Islamic states. Look to the steady progress made by the likes of Jordan. I like the comment made by another poster in the thread about racism in the wake of an Indian girl winning Miss America - the reason we see that kind of insane, reactionary hate is because those people are losing. The same can be said of the extreme parts of Islam - they see the changes slowly working through their society and they do not like them.


The roots of the sectarian divide in Islam go back to the 8th century and the death of the Prophet without a clear successor. That's where all this Sunni/Shiite fun comes from. Start with that divide, add in a culture with a passion for revenge and long memories about perceived insult or slight, let that run for a couple centuries with periods of intense decline and out comes this BS.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/17 11:29:57


I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Frazzled wrote:

Yes, there have been mutliple Muslim terrorists here too. I'm sure you were trying to make another point, but it was stupid.


Actually I was talking about fringe elements in both places. Radical Christianity is just as bad, except they tend not blow themselves up and are more selective in their murders.


Back on the subject of Syria...


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/17/world/europe/syria-united-nations.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0

Apparently the UN report does not blame Assad outright, but, by way of proof, the gas as dispersed using a Russian made 140mm MS 14 rocket fired from a Syrian military base. (But feel free to check the angles against a map yourself, they're in the report).

Also:


If the Syrian army doesn't notice this bad boy driving around and start asking questions, It's amazing that the opposition hasn't won by now. (Though, in all fairness, the Syrian army also purchased the towed version)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/17 16:32:35



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut





Given that the rebels are using home made missile launchers already, it's hardly a stretch for them to have a single tube capable of firing a gas round.
The Russians have been providing munitions to Syria for decades. Casings with cyrilic on them would be commonplace in that country. The rebels have overrun army positions at times, it's not hard to see that they had access to Russian munitions as a result.
This is all speculative and circumstantial which is why the UN has rightly avoided proportioning blame.

I'd also take with a pinch of salt "news reports" which include words like 'chilling' and make vague statements about "other nonproliferation experts" without naming them.
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 djones520 wrote:
Not nearly to the scale though. You've got a largely 3rd world region, with very ignorant populations, it's easy for these "leaders" to twist the populace to their perveted message. It's endemic to that region.


I'm not sure if you're describing the Middle East, or the bottom half of the US.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/18 04:20:30


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

 Ouze wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
Not nearly to the scale though. You've got a largely 3rd world region, with very ignorant populations, it's easy for these "leaders" to twist the populace to their perveted message. It's endemic to that region.


I'm not sure if you're describing the Middle East, or the bottom half of the US.




Considering our third world population centers are in the North of the country I'd vote no. Atlanta sucks, but it's not the Detroit or Chicago warzones.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

Yes, there have been mutliple Muslim terrorists here too. I'm sure you were trying to make another point, but it was stupid.


Actually I was talking about fringe elements in both places. Radical Christianity is just as bad, except they tend not blow themselves up and are more selective in their murders.


Your statement is not supported by evidence of anything. Try to quit drinking the PC Koolaid once in a while.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

Radical Christianity has committed hundreds of felonies including assault, arson, kidnapping and murder in the United States. They don't have gak on haji still, but this isn't disputable evidence.

Christians have their own violent extremists groups as well of course.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

cadbren wrote:
Given that the rebels are using home made missile launchers already, it's hardly a stretch for them to have a single tube capable of firing a gas round.
The Russians have been providing munitions to Syria for decades. Casings with cyrilic on them would be commonplace in that country. The rebels have overrun army positions at times, it's not hard to see that they had access to Russian munitions as a result.


Unlikely. The MS 14 (chemical) is a specialized round, not a standard explosive rocket (though there is a standard explosive version, you can't just convert one without the proper warhead). If the rebels took it overrunning an army position, it was because the army was about to use it on someone. Remember that Sarin has a short shelf life once mixed.

Further, while the rebels undoubtedly do have Russian launchers, interestingly, the majority of theirs are likely Chinese type 63s that Syrian army defectors brought them, which are similar to a BM 14, but use a smaller rocket size and have more tubes. (And ammunition for this is more plentiful, being produced in both Turkey and Egypt under license.)



Cad, feel free to run the numbers yourself on the trajectory those rockets took. The numbers are in the report.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/18 14:33:11



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Radical Christianity has committed hundreds of felonies including assault, arson, kidnapping and murder in the United States. They don't have gak on haji still, but this isn't disputable evidence.

Christians have their own violent extremists groups as well of course.


it would be awesome if showed some proof of that.

Even if we assumed you were right:

Hundreds< Thousands.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Frazzled wrote:

it would be awesome if showed some proof of that.

Even if we assumed you were right:

Hundreds< Thousands.



Want thousands? ok. Sticking to the relatively recent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Front_of_Tripura

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Volunteers

I'd say there's plenty of Christian extremism and violence to be had. If you'd like to up the bodycount by several orders of magnitude we could toss in the Crusades, but I felt that we should stick to recent events and organizations.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

it would be awesome if showed some proof of that.

Even if we assumed you were right:

Hundreds< Thousands.



Want thousands? ok. Sticking to the relatively recent:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Front_of_Tripura

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Volunteers

I'd say there's plenty of Christian extremism and violence to be had. If you'd like to up the bodycount by several orders of magnitude we could toss in the Crusades, but I felt that we should stick to recent events and organizations.


Your original post said "in the US." Whats awesome is how your references are such utter crap.
Please reference where Christians caused thousands of casualties in the US. This might take awhile.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

I never said they caused thousands of casulaties in the U.S. however the fact that the Ku Klux Klan, The Army of God and other radical Christian organizations are alive and active in the United States is indisputable.

Christian terrorists have murdered, kidnapped and committed arson and recently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#United_States

If you factor in Klan caused deaths and violence over time, I suspect we'd hit the "thousands" pretty rapidly.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Frazzled wrote:

Your original post said "in the US." Whats awesome is how your references are such utter crap.
Please reference where Christians caused thousands of casualties in the US. This might take awhile.


No, I said they get followers in the United States and causing thousands of casualties.

While US Christians have 'only' caused 300 deaths in their own country, they support all those organizations listed (or did so previous in the case of Kony's LRA. Rush Limbaugh even spoke out in favor of them until someone told him what they were doing). National Liberation Front of Tripura in particular was co founded by US Baptist missionaries to create a Christian Kingdom in India and continues to receive their support. So while American Christians might not pile up impressive body counts in the US, they're doing a bang up job everywhere else.


As far as raw numbers, KM is right according to the FBI's published crime statistics. Muslims only account for 5% of acts of terrorism carried out in the US, but because of 9/11 they get the bulk of casualties. If you don't factor in that event, the vast majority of terrorist killings are carried out by Christians.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Eh... isn't that misleading though?

I mean, whackadoo Christians out number the Extremist Muslims in the US by some high factors.

What are we debating here now? I lost track...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/18 16:16:06


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I never said they caused thousands of casulaties in the U.S. however the fact that the Ku Klux Klan, The Army of God and other radical Christian organizations are alive and active in the United States is indisputable.

Christian terrorists have murdered, kidnapped and committed arson and recently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#United_States

If you factor in Klan caused deaths and violence over time, I suspect we'd hit the "thousands" pretty rapidly.



If you're including the Klan (I left them out because I was sticking to fairly recent body counts, and it's killing spree is stretched over more than a century) you're looking at in excess of 4000 people, grand total, according to some sources. The lowball is around 1500.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:

Your original post said "in the US." Whats awesome is how your references are such utter crap.
Please reference where Christians caused thousands of casualties in the US. This might take awhile.


No, I said they get followers in the United States and causing thousands of casualties.

While US Christians have 'only' caused 300 deaths in their own country, they support all those organizations listed (or did so previous in the case of Kony's LRA. Rush Limbaugh even spoke out in favor of them until someone told him what they were doing). National Liberation Front of Tripura in particular was co founded by US Baptist missionaries to create a Christian Kingdom in India and continues to receive their support. So while American Christians might not pile up impressive body counts in the US, they're doing a bang up job everywhere else.


As far as raw numbers, KM is right according to the FBI's published crime statistics. Muslims only account for 5% of acts of terrorism carried out in the US, but because of 9/11 they get the bulk of casualties. If you don't factor in that event, the vast majority of terrorist killings are carried out by Christians.


So in other words, you lied.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I never said they caused thousands of casulaties in the U.S. however the fact that the Ku Klux Klan, The Army of God and other radical Christian organizations are alive and active in the United States is indisputable.

Christian terrorists have murdered, kidnapped and committed arson and recently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#United_States

If you factor in Klan caused deaths and violence over time, I suspect we'd hit the "thousands" pretty rapidly.


The Klan was an organization designed to keep Jim Crow going. It had as much to do with Christianity as my ass does to why Trexas liked coconuts.
Plus they're effectively dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

As far as raw numbers, KM is right according to the FBI's published crime statistics. Muslims only account for 5% of acts of terrorism carried out in the US, but because of 9/11 they get the bulk of casualties. If you don't factor in that event, the vast majority of terrorist killings are carried out by Christians.


What are the other 95% of "terrrorism" You can't accuse Christians unless they actually did it in the name of their religion.
Seriously?

Towers
9/11
attempted shoe bomber
Fort Hood
Marathon



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/18 17:03:49


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
 
Forum Index » Off-Topic Forum
Go to: