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The OP has most certainly opened a can of worms with this one! or hes just sitting in his armchair going "dance puppets dance!"

By Sigmars testicles, you cannot wound an etheral creature with a non magical weapon, but 16% of the time you can cut off its head? I think not. A bit of common sense should be applied here.

 Soteks Prophet wrote:
By Sigmars testicles, you cannot wound an etheral creature with a non magical weapon, but 16% of the time you can cut off its head? I think not. A bit of common sense should be applied here.

And all along I thought it was two tails, not two balls and 1 tail.

 Iranna wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


But KB is triggered on a successful roll to wound. Hence the argument that if you cannot wound, KB cannot trigger.

That's incorrect, Killing Blow is triggered on a "To Wound" roll of a '6', regardless of whether it's successful or not.

Iranna.

@duke-t is true that there are many ways to slay an opponent and you are told when you slay them. I you weren't you would not know to remove them from the table.
@iranna
What are you doing when you are rolling to wound??
Obviously the wound must be successful. That's what the 6 was for. If you saved against it it wasn't successful
People are trying to add or take away what already exists. Trying to change the process of the game.
You rolled to WOUND. You have already wounded.
You don't take any test, roll to do something not to do it.
If you didn't wound, a model with killing blow could not wound a dragon on a roll of six.
For the hundredth time..killing blow triggers on a wound just like d6 or d3 only or is all remaining wounds
This is just getting ridiculous.

 Peasant wrote:

This is just getting ridiculous.

I think that's generous of you...

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:
So MC, MI etc in combat with something with KB ignores all wound roles of a 6 then?

Not sure which side you're arguing, but... You make it seem like there is only one path and one set of guidelines for every attack. A MC can have an armor save, regen save, ward save. If the attacker has S10 the armor save is removed. If the attacker has flaming attacks, regen is removed. If the attacker is using a blade of realities, the ward save and armor save are removed. I.e., not all rules come into play in all situations. MC/MI the KB rules are completely not in play. They don't exist for that model. It is explicitly written under KB. There is no such exclusion for Ethereal.

If you didn't wound, a model with killing blow could not wound a dragon on a roll of six.

Nowhere in the game does it say that. First off, you need HKB. But second, a wound is caused by:

----somehow you got to the to-wound table
-ROLL to wound (p. 42, 51)
-take saving throws (if any, modified)
-remove casualties (or assign wounds per multi-wounds)

The ROLL to wound section does not do any wounds at all. None. Zero. You are merely rolling to see if you continue. Read those very small sections in the BRB. 42/51. They never once mention doing a wound. Let me repeat that: you do not do a wound when rolling to wound. You merely decide whether you go to the next phase or not which is saving throws.

DukeRustfield wrote:

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:
So MC, MI etc in combat with something with KB ignores all wound roles of a 6 then?

Not sure which side you're arguing, but... You make it seem like there is only one path and one set of guidelines for every attack. A MC can have an armor save, regen save, ward save. If the attacker has S10 the armor save is removed. If the attacker has flaming attacks, regen is removed. If the attacker is using a blade of realities, the ward save and armor save are removed. I.e., not all rules come into play in all situations. MC/MI the KB rules are completely not in play. They don't exist for that model. It is explicitly written under KB. There is no such exclusion for Ethereal.

If you didn't wound, a model with killing blow could not wound a dragon on a roll of six.

Nowhere in the game does it say that. First off, you need HKB. But second, a wound is caused by:

----somehow you got to the to-wound table
-ROLL to wound (p. 42, 51)
-take saving throws (if any, modified)
-remove casualties (or assign wounds per multi-wounds)

The ROLL to wound section does not do any wounds at all. None. Zero. You are merely rolling to see if you continue. Read those very small sections in the BRB. 42/51. They never once mention doing a wound. Let me repeat that: you do not do a wound when rolling to wound. You merely decide whether you go to the next phase or not which is saving throws.

You have contradicted yourself in this post.
Part one you say that each step tells you whether or not to continue to the next step.
Then you say killing blow ignores steps it does not. There is more than one step but the process is always the same.
You can place ethereal where you want.
You roll to hit.
If you hit. You hit. Of you have a special rule it takes place...why? Because you hit.
You roll to wound. If you succeed you llook to see if there are a y saves.
No saves and single wound remove the model. More than 1 deduct the wound. Killing blow works on that model remove all wounds.
Saves ..roll saves.
If you save it discounts the wound. If you had a ward and passed discount the wound. If you meet the criteria for KB and failed the ward you remove all remaining g wounds.
Some appear to be under the impression that KB discounts the wound. It makes no sense to game process to ignore the wound that you already caused when you rolled a successful wound on a 6. That is why you can still wound models that are not affected by killing blow.
Of course you wounded that's why you moved on. Of course you wounded that's why you are rolling saves.
I think you are struggling because you are contradicting yourself with the process to give a buff to killing blow
I'm at work so I don't have time to write the process for every model but go through the steps of combat with a model with KB vs. A cavalry model, then a cavalry with ward, then a multi wound model, then a multi wound with a ward, then a multi wound that is not affected by KB. Etc..

You roll to wound. If you succeed you llook to see if there are a y saves.

If you meet the criteria for KB and failed the ward you remove all remaining g wounds.

Some appear to be under the impression that KB discounts the wound.

I'll take this piecemeal.

In your first sentence, that is exactly true for non-KB attacks. However, the very first sentence in KB says "if a model with the KB special rule rolls a 6 to wound in CC, he automatically slays his opponent..." That is not To-Wound. In To Wound on p51 you compare you roll with the S and T of the the parties. KB never uses or makes reference to the S or T of anyone or anything. KB breaks out of the p. 51 order of operations. How do you know? Because there is never a Strength/Toughness involved. We know for sure there is no S involved because the next order of operations is Saving Throws and there is no armor save (modified or not), there is no regen save. The only save is what is detailed under the special rule of KB.

Let me give you an example on order of operations that differs from what you think. A Greater Unclean One (DoC) has a Balesword that does D3 wounds. He is playing with Epidemius who has reached a tally of 21 and all Nurgle get KB. The GUO starts fighting a unit of multi-wound enemy infantry with 2 wounds each (if some exist). If the GUO rolls 6 to wound, even if he's feeling lucky, he can't try and roll his multi-wounds and hope it carries over to multiple enemies in the unit. He slays. With 5 attacks the GUO could do 15 wounds, killing 7.5, but if he rolls 5 6s, he slays 5. He never makes it to the point of rolling the D3 because the process is short-cut. According to you, that wound was made or KB wouldn't exist. But then what do you do? KB ignores armor saves and regen, multi wounds doesn't.

And the KB doesn't say "remove all remaining wounds." I don't know why you keep insist on saying it does. It says "regardless of the number of wounds." Remove != regardless. One is a verb. One is an adverb.

KB does discount the wound. It discounts the whole process of To Wound in that you don't compare S to T and look at the chart. A 6 has activated the KB special rule. Once you roll a 6 on to wound, you have entered the body of that special rule and must follow it to the end.

By RAW this is true. The rule for killing blow does say it slays outright it's victim. But then again, if it doesn't cause a wound and you are fighting a large unit of infantry models, what is slain? 1? All of them? If no wound is caused and you are fighting more than 1 possible target how would you resolve it by RAW? I know of no player that would actually play this way for ethereals, but it is certainly a hole in logic as written.

You're still fighting a unit. Unless you have characters involved and you specifically attacked them, you're attacking the members of the unit. That came before KB when you started the Close Combat round. I don't think there's ever a question of who is slain. If you don't target a character, it's rank and file.

KB doesn't confuse the target any more than normal to wound does that I see.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Not sure which side you're arguing, but...

I'll be clear then. Arguing that KB somehow effects ethereal is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. It's circular reasoning.

This whole thread is in the extreme.

This is very clearly neither the correct RAW or RAI interpretation. This is the same as arguing that poison effects ethereal.

Posion and KB work on ethereal just fine... as long as they are delivered via a magic weapon.

DukeRustfield wrote:

You roll to wound. If you succeed you llook to see if there are a y saves.

If you meet the criteria for KB and failed the ward you remove all remaining g wounds.

Some appear to be under the impression that KB discounts the wound.

I'll take this piecemeal.

In your first sentence, that is exactly true for non-KB attacks. However, the very first sentence in KB says "if a model with the KB special rule rolls a 6 to wound in CC, he automatically slays his opponent..." That is not To-Wound. In To Wound on p51 you compare you roll with the S and T of the the parties. KB never uses or makes reference to the S or T of anyone or anything. KB breaks out of the p. 51 order of operations. How do you know? Because there is never a Strength/Toughness involved. We know for sure there is no S involved because the next order of operations is Saving Throws and there is no armor save (modified or not), there is no regen save. The only save is what is detailed under the special rule of KB.

Ah, this is what is causing your struggle.
pg 51. under roll to wound..
'...once you have hit your foe you must roll again to see whether or not your hit inflicts a wound. Pick up all the dice that scored hits and roll them again.
Consult the To Wound chart, cross referencing the attackers strength........the chart indicates the minimum score required on a d6 to cause a wound..

Pg51 Take Saving throws.
the enemy rolls a d6 for each wound suffered.....if he rolls equal to or greater.....the wound has been deflected.......

KB does not need to make reference to strength or toughness. It has already done so by telling you to roll to wound. That is the process
Again...killing blow does not say roll a dice, if it is a six you are slain...
It say roll a 6 TO WOUND. The process is defined already. Every time you roll to wound you use your S vs. T unless you have a special rule that tells you that you always wound on a 4+ (for example) KB does not tell you that. I tells you to consult the chart by rolling to wound. When you roll the dice To Wound you must consult the chart. When you consult the chart your 6 to wound will slay according to criteria. If you don't meet the criteria you continue. if you have 2 attacks and you roll a 5 and a 6 you consult the chart. Both are on the same chart. You aren't rolling on a killing blow chart you are rolling on the to wound chart. The 5 wounds so does the 6. Infantry are in big trouble monsters not so much.
You have been told to use the chart.
If the method to trigger kb isn't constant then there will be flaws in the process
You don't have a different process for your model with kb. It is the same whomever you fight. .

Let me give you an example on order of operations that differs from what you think. A Greater Unclean One (DoC) has a Balesword that does D3 wounds. He is playing with Epidemius who has reached a tally of 21 and all Nurgle get KB. The GUO starts fighting a unit of multi-wound enemy infantry with 2 wounds each (if some exist). If the GUO rolls 6 to wound, even if he's feeling lucky, he can't try and roll his multi-wounds and hope it carries over to multiple enemies in the unit. He slays. With 5 attacks the GUO could do 15 wounds, killing 7.5, but if he rolls 5 6s, he slays 5. He never makes it to the point of rolling the D3 because the process is short-cut. According to you, that wound was made or KB wouldn't exist. But then what do you do? KB ignores armor saves and regen, multi wounds doesn't.

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say In this circumstance it would depend on what he's fighting. all things equal if they are infantry he slays if they are monsters he does d3. You can't choose not to use special abilities. He doesn't need d3 if he is slaying. If the models were 4 wound infantry the d3 would be irrelevant. If they were 4 wound monsters kb would be irrelevant. This point is drifting off topic and has no bearing on the discussion.( well I'm guessing because I'm a bit confused here. )

And the KB doesn't say "remove all remaining wounds." I don't know why you keep insist on saying it does. It says "regardless of the number of wounds." Remove != regardless. One is a verb. One is an adverb.

KB does discount the wound. It discounts the whole process of To Wound in that you don't compare S to T and look at the chart. A 6 has activated the KB special rule. Once you roll a 6 on to wound, you have entered the body of that special rule and must follow it to the end.

The semantics of removing remaining wounds and regardless of the number... is irrelevant. Just replace' regardless of the number' where I said remove all remaining wounds. The process is the same you reduce the model to zero wounds and remove it from the table.
The rulebook uses slain and killed, remove from play. All are effectively the same. But the book would be boring as hell if they didn't write some kind of variations.

The wound for killing blow is not discounted, it is amplified. You rolled a 6 to wound on the to wound chart, you activated KB, the model failed its ward (which you take wards agaist successful wounds according to pg 51 'taking saving throws' .The model is slain regardless of the number of wounds..it doesn't matter if it was 2 or 20. It now has zero.

You rolled 4 dice, 3, 5, 5, 6..all of which are going to be compared to the chart. The same rule applies for all the dice. . They must be compared to the chart, once compared to the chart they are either successful or unsuccessful wounds. Place the six on the chart if its a monster proceed to saves with the wound, if its infantry proceed to saves to slay regardless of number... The 6 doesn't magically disappear.
Following the steps you proceed to saves which is what you do against successful wounds. And what are successful wounds? Any dice rolls that met the criteria on the to wound chart. the 3, 5, 5, 6.
KB ignores armour, S10 goes through most armour,
Both get wards because the process is the same.
KB slays..'regardless of the number of wounds remaining. S10 will do 1, d3..whatever the process is the same. They are both attempts to slay the opponent (one is admittedly better than the other)
KB you have 0 wounds now, you are slain. S10, if they rolled 3 and the model had 3 wounds has 0 wounds and is slain.
Same process.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:

Not sure which side you're arguing, but...

I'll be clear then. Arguing that KB somehow effects ethereal is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. It's circular reasoning.

This whole thread is in the extreme.

.

IMHO
I don't think it's circular, I think it is an attempt by some to rules lawyer a result that is not RAW and DEFINETLY not RAI just to gain an advantage against a powerful model.
And it's all based on a belief that the roll 'to wound', Is not a roll to wound, so it doesn't wound because KB doesn't say it causes a wound..
It really is ridiculous.
But I can't break away...

 Peasant wrote:

I don't think it's circular, I think it is an attempt by some to rules lawyer a result that is not RAW and DEFINETLY not RAI just to gain an advantage against a powerful model.
And it's all based on a belief that the roll 'to wound', Is not a roll to wound, so it doesn't wound because KB doesn't say it causes a wound..
It really is ridiculous.
But I can't break away...

Well I should of said circular reasoning, rules lawyering, being deliberately obtuse and over-complicating something very simple. It's a mess.

Oh and it all works except when you target MI/MC when it magically turns back into a wound again... because I want it to.

If the seperate things "roll to wound" and wounds had more distinct names, would you find it easier to understand? They are clearly different steps. How about renaming the steps:
Roll to Fred. For each successful Fred (check the Fred table), you inflict 1 wound.
Killing Blow - a roll of 6 on a roll to Fred results in the model being slain with no armour saves, but a Ward save may be taken.

The fact that they use the same word in the BRB for Fred amd Wound is irrelevant - they are different steps in the process.

Niteware wrote:
If the seperate things "roll to wound" and wounds had more distinct names, would you find it easier to understand? They are clearly different steps. How about renaming the steps:
Roll to Fred. For each successful Fred (check the Fred table), you inflict 1 wound.
Killing Blow - a roll of 6 on a roll to Fred results in the model being slain with no armour saves, but a Ward save may be taken.

The fact that they use the same word in the BRB for Fred amd Wound is irrelevant - they are different steps in the process.

Do you wound MI on a roll of 6 to wound when you have KB?

If a rule isn't in play, you follow whatever steps you would normally follow. Kind of like how Ethereal only stops wounds so every action up to the point of actually receiving a wound still takes place.

DukeRustfield wrote:
If a rule isn't in play, you follow whatever steps you would normally follow. Kind of like how Ethereal only stops wounds so every action up to the point of actually receiving a wound still takes place.

OK right so being that MI can't be effected by normal killing blow and killing blow is on the attack then MI can't be wounded by any attack with KB at all...

Right, got ya.

Niteware wrote:
If the seperate things "roll to wound" and wounds had more distinct names, would you find it easier to understand? They are clearly different steps. How about renaming the steps:
Roll to Fred. For each successful Fred (check the Fred table), you inflict 1 wound.
Killing Blow - a roll of 6 on a roll to Fred results in the model being slain with no armour saves, but a Ward save may be taken.

The fact that they use the same word in the BRB for Fred amd Wound is irrelevant - they are different steps in the process.

How do you know it's a successful Fred...you look at the table? where does your 6 end up on the table? follow the process...Roll to Fred and check the table.
AGAIN it is not roll a dice and on a 6 you KB.

I gave an example of this in my last post.
It's not about what it's called it's about the process.
We do not go backwards in process.
Every close combat follows the same steps.
Roll 2 dice to Fred. ( If you are rolling to Fred you must know what your S vs. T is, say S3 vs. T3) scores 5, 6. Compare your roll to Fred to the Fred Chart to see if you successfully wound.
You do. with both. And you have KB.
You have KB and the model is infantry, cav etc.. you will inflict 1 wound for the 5 and (what if we give slay a more distinct name like bubble gum)..so.. on a 6 you potentially bubble gum your opponent regardless of the number of wounds. Whatever you call it, the model effectively loses all of it's wounds.
Time to save..
Armour save vs. the wound caused by the roll to Fred of 5 fails. You don't get an armour save because your 6 to Fred activated KB(KB changed this process)
Ward save (sword/shield)
You roll 2 dice. One for the wound caused by the 5 and one for the KB. You don't need to roll separate dice because both will bubble gum you.
If you have multiple wounds you roll one for each result because one will cause one wound the other will bubble gum you. You need multiple wounds and KB to change this part of the process.

Now look again
Roll 2 dice to Fred. ( If you are rolling to Fred you must know what your S vs. T is, say S3 vs. T3) scores 5, 6. Compare your roll to Fred to the Fred Chart to see if you successfully wound.
You do. with both. And you have KB.
You have KB and the model is a monster. you will inflict 1 wound for the 5 and the 1 wound for the 6. because your 6 to fred is only does a single wound. KB does not change the process
Time to save..
Armour save vs. 2 wounds. KB does not change the process. fail both
Ward save (sword/shield)
You roll 2 dice. One for each wound. You don't need to roll separate dice because both will bubble gum you.
If you have multiple wounds roll together because you wounded twice.

KB is an effect triggered by a successful to wound roll which is a successful wound in the game process. A six always wounds..
KB affects your save and your wounds inflicted. provided it has even come into play. It does not need to be written because that is the game process.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:
OK right so being that MI can't be effected by normal killing blow and killing blow is on the attack then MI can't be wounded by any attack with KB at all...

No one said that. I think you need to read the rules a few more times. Or one time. MI has nothing to do with Ethereal whatsoever other than showing what an exclusion in a rule looks like. KB writes in very specific detail it doesn't work on MI. KB doesn't write in any detail that it fails to work on Ethereal, so unless something else says so, it is still in play. Ethereal rule does not say it blocks KB. Ethereal makes no mention of KB or any of the effects of KB. Just like Ethereal doesn't block Scouting or Vanguard or charging or Random Movement.

How do you know it's a successful Fred...you look at the table? where does your 6 end up on the table? follow the process...Roll to Fred and check the table.
AGAIN it is not roll a dice and on a 6 you KB.

Roll 2 dice to Fred. ( If you are rolling to Fred you must know what your S vs. T is, say S3 vs. T3) scores 5, 6. Compare your roll to Fred to the Fred Chart to see if you successfully wound.
You do. with both. And you have KB.

Incorrect. Read KB. The first sentence is all you need. You never have to check the table. KB never tells you to CHECK any table. It never tells you to compare S to T. It is unfortunate that the To Wound table is setup like it is now. But just pretend two units are fighting. You need to roll ONE BILLION to wound them on 1 six-sided die. Because Fred says a Gnoblar fighting a Bloodthirster needs to roll a Billion. A six-sided die does not go up to a billion. Yet, the Gnoblar is wielding a Pebble of Bloodthirster Slaying. He rolls a 6. 6 isn't a billion. He fails to Fred/Wound. Yet he still slays.

There is no requirement, no verbiage, no hint that you have to successfully wound/Fred/whatever to KB. It doesn't care. If. You. Roll. A. 6. You. Slay. If some model has a rule that it cannot be wounded at all because it is super awesome badass, it's toughness if 50000 and it's FAQed that only 14 Comets of Cassandra hitting it simultaneously can cause a single wound, that gnoblar with his pebble can still instantly slay. Because KB rule doesn't care about Toughness or what you need to roll to wound.

DukeRustfield wrote:

How do you know it's a successful Fred...you look at the table? where does your 6 end up on the table? follow the process...Roll to Fred and check the table.
AGAIN it is not roll a dice and on a 6 you KB.

Roll 2 dice to Fred. ( If you are rolling to Fred you must know what your S vs. T is, say S3 vs. T3) scores 5, 6. Compare your roll to Fred to the Fred Chart to see if you successfully wound.
You do. with both. And you have KB.

Incorrect. Read KB. The first sentence is all you need. You never have to check the table. KB never tells you to CHECK any table. It never tells you to compare S to T. It is unfortunate that the To Wound table is setup like it is now. But just pretend two units are fighting. You need to roll ONE BILLION to wound them on 1 six-sided die. Because Fred says a Gnoblar fighting a Bloodthirster needs to roll a Billion. A six-sided die does not go up to a billion. Yet, the Gnoblar is wielding a Pebble of Bloodthirster Slaying. He rolls a 6. 6 isn't a billion. He fails to Fred/Wound. Yet he still slays.

You too should read kb again. But let me help you. The first sentence reads..'If a model with KB rolls a 6 to wound in close combat he automatically slays his opponent regardless of the number of wounds.
You don't need verbiage, hints or anything else it is the process of combat.
You have rolled to hit and now you must roll to wound.
Kb does not have to tell you to compare S vs.T. The combat phase has already Told you to do it. it is the next step.You started the phase by rolling to hit. Now you must roll to wound. How do you roll to wound?
Again. KB does not tell you to roll a dice. It tells you to roll to wound.
The roll of the dice is the same one for your chart. You are never told to ignore the chart.
Your pretend example is irrelevant because a 6 always wounds. Maybe that is what is causing your problem.
Answer these questions.
When rolling to wound does a six always wound?
Where does killing blow say it does not wound.?
Where does it instruct you to discount the wound?
By not comparing S vs. T you are violating the rules of 'rolling to wound'.
How do you roll to wound?
If your model has two attacks you roll 2 dice to wound which dice is your KB dice?
You don't know because they are same dice that will be compared to the chart.
You are confusing yourself by trying to separate KB from the game process.
That same 6 you rolled that can potentially KB an infantry will wound a monster. No change. Same process.

]There is no requirement, no verbiage, no hint that you have to successfully wound/Fred/whatever to KB. It doesn't care. If. You. Roll. A. 6. You. Slay. If some model has a rule that it cannot be wounded at all because it is super awesome badass, it's toughness if 50000 and it's FAQed that only 14 Comets of Cassandra hitting it simultaneously can cause a single wound, that gnoblar with his pebble can still instantly slay. Because KB rule doesn't care about Toughness or what you need to roll to wound.

I'm sure everyone will heave a great sigh of relief that I am almost done here.
KB does not need to tell you. You are told in the game process of rolling to wound that you must wound. Because a 6 to wound always causes a wound. KB never said it doesn't care about s vs. t. It must care because you are rolling to wound. go back and read the examples I typed.
1 wound or 3 wounds gone from KB. Both are slain.
You are never asked to just roll a 6. You are never told roll a die and on a score of 6 you slay.
If KB stated roll a dice and on a score of a six, remove the model from play I would agree with you.

All this just to show KB does not work on ethereal.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
If a rule isn't in play, you follow whatever steps you would normally follow. Kind of like how Ethereal only stops wounds so every action up to the point of actually receiving a wound still takes place.

OK right so being that MI can't be effected by normal killing blow and killing blow is on the attack then MI can't be wounded by any attack with KB at all...

Right, got ya.

The fact that KB is involved does not mean that you are also rolling to wound. That is the whole point. They are seperate. MI would take a wound, they wold not he slain. Ethereal would not take a wound, they would be slain. Ethereal MI would be safe.

The roll of the dice is the same one for your chart. You are never told to ignore the chart.

But you are. Because it says a roll of 6 slays. Slay is not a result of to wound. Successful or unsuccessful wound are the ONLY possible results of consulting the to wound chart. So says the BRB.

Your pretend example is irrelevant because a 6 always wounds.

But that's irrelevant because of the above. Even if it did cause a wound, it would cause a wound AND slay. Ethereal would block a wound and still be slain.

When rolling to wound does a six always wound?

No, not when the attacker has KB.

Where does killing blow say it does not wound.?
Where does it instruct you to discount the wound?

When it says slay regardless of wounds.

By not comparing S vs. T you are violating the rules of 'rolling to wound'.

And by saying Ethereal blocks wounds, you are violating the rules of rolling to wound saying you just took a wound. SURPRISE, there's more than one rule in the BRB.

How do you roll to wound?

I use my right hand. I.e., nonsense question.

If your model has two attacks you roll 2 dice to wound which dice is your KB dice?

The killingest one. I.e., nonsense question.

You are told in the game process of rolling to wound that you must wound. KB never said it doesn't care about s vs. t.

You must wound in normal combat via a normal weapon without Special Rules. But it does say it doesn't care because, as I said, if a unit CANNOT BE WOUNDED EVER, it is still not immune to KB. If Khorne himself comes through and cannot be wounded unless he has a rule that stops KB, he can still be slain. If he can't be hit, he could not be KB. If he has a rule you cannot roll to wound, he could not be KB. But immunity to wounds != immunity to slay. They are separate game actions. If an ogre takes a wound, he has 2 wounds remaining. If an ogre is slain, you remove him from the table. Those are clearly not the same.

All this just to show KB does not work on ethereal.

And you haven't, because it does.

Okay I will state this this again, the order in which all this happens

First the KB rule

"If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent - regardless of the number of wounds on the victim's profile..."

The Ethereal rule

"Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and weapons or effects...."

Close Combat order

1)Striking order
---Basically find out who strikes at what time via Int

2) Roll to Hit
---"Roll a d6 for each attack. Compare the WS of the attacker and the defender to determine the score required to hit."

3) Roll to Wound
---"Roll a d6 for each attack that hit. Compare the STR of the attacker and the TO if the defender to find the score required to wound."
---If you read this section on page 51, no where does it say you actually cause wounds in this phase, you are rolling to see if you can cause a wound.
---This is also where KB takes effect, if the Dice Roll to see if you can cause a wound is a 6 with the KB special rule, you slay the opponent, no ifs and buts.

4) Saving Throws
---"The enemy now rolls a d6 for each wound suffered. If the score is equal or greater than the model's saving throw, the wound is discounted."
---This is where the wounds kick in,
---And this is where the Ethereal special rule kicks in, as it negates WOUNDS from non-magical sources

5) Remove Casualties

Also on page 52 under wounds inflicted, the favorite argument against KB working....

"Attacks that kill a model outright (made with a KB, say -- see pg. 72) count as having scored all the slain model's remaining wounds."
This is under the CALCULATE COMBAT RESULT section. That's why under the KB rule it talks about wounds, cause its for the combat resolutions, to see if you win or lose combat.

Its like this, lets say I KB a lord with 3 wounds, the KB rule says he dies regardless of the fact he had 3 wounds. Then in the remove casualties when it says to move the slain to the side for combat results, the calculate combat result section tells you to count the Lords 3 wounds for combat resolution. Its not cause KB is causing a wound, because no where does it say it does so, THAT IS A FACT, but it SLAY'S!!!!!


As some tried to do earlier, the reason why people can't see this working is because they can't imagine a mundane troop with the KB rule killing a ghost using said KB rule. I felt the same way with my Tomb King army when i have poison working on skeletons and stone constructs.... It doesn't make sense, its not supposed to. The names KB and poison are arbitrary terms used to add fluff to the game, the fact is those words are words we associate with with different things. If they were to call poison, fluffy kitty attack, we wouldn't think of "how the hell does poison work on skeletons and stone." its the same way with KB. It doesn't make sense with the terms they used, but as a game mechanic it works.

Odd, my rule book out lines on page 51:
1) Striking order.
2) Roll to hit.
3) Roll to wound. "As with shooting, once you have hit your foe, you must roll again to see whether or not each hit inflicts a wound."
4) Take Savings throws, "He rolls a D6 for each wound suffered by his troops."
5) Remove Casualties.

Wounds are suffered in step 3, because it is in past tense before you roll the save in step 4; which can only mean it comes before step 3. Interestingly, step 5 doesn't mention wounds at all.

If you're wounded at Step 3 when you roll to wound, then that is where Ethereal steps in. You roll to wound, ethereal cannot be wounded.

-Matt

Niteware wrote:


The process is:
1) Roll to hit (apply any modifiers)
2) Any effects which trigger on rolling tohit
3) Any effects triggered on a hit
4) Roll to wound
5) Any effects triggered by rolling to wound
6) Any effects triggered by wounds
7) Saves
8) Effects triggeeed by unsaved wounds.

Ethereal comes in at step 6, while KB jumps you out of the sequence at step 5

I would agree with this break down of order and say killing blow can slay ethereal's

Except Matt, no where does it say that under rolling to wound it inflicts a wound, the section after it says each wound suffered, yes past tense, but yet when do you take wounds. My guess would be right after you Roll to see if you wound, so slightly before saves, yet after rolling to see if you wound.

Of course that would be relevant, if KB actually said it inflicts wounds, which it does not, it SLAYS.

And that's my point, which has been said over and over again, point where in the book that KB actually causes a wound? or even inflicts a wound? It doesn't unless you can find a page, because if it does then KB would not work, but as it does not cause a wound, it works. Rolling to wound is not the same as causing a wound, different steps. You have to roll to see if you can cause a wound, and that part is comparing STR and To, and that is the part where KB comes into effect. If we were to follow the logic that rolling to wound causes a wound, would that mean that if I have 18 hits, I have 18 wounds? No of course not, you take your 18 hits and roll to see if you wound, then after that you wound.

And Strategem, that's how my friends and I break it down, it makes it clear when its divided up as such.

You inflict a wound after a successful roll but before saves, like you said.

How do I know? 2 ways. Because if something says you take a wound, from some source (spell, item, whatever), unless it says otherwise, you get all normal saves. And at the start of Saving Throws in the BRB it says, now the target rolls a d6 for each wound suffered.

If you're wounded at Step 3 when you roll to wound, then that is where Ethereal steps in. You roll to wound, ethereal cannot be wounded.

Totally. But it can be slain. It can block however many mundane wounds it wants to. But it doesn't block rolling to wound or KB. It blocks the wound suffered from a successful to wound attack from a non magic source. If you roll a 6, the KB rule is activated. Whether a wound is inflicted or not doesn't matter as the model is slain (barring ward).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT:
I just thought of something. I was thinking it didn't matter if you take a wound and KB happens since Ethereal blocks the wound. It does matter. Not only that, KB takes over and the wound never happens. Here ya go:

1) Striking order.
2) Roll to hit.
3) Roll to wound.
4) Take Savings throws
5) Remove Casualties
6) Calculate Combat Result

If you take a wound in 3 because you rolled a 6 and you also slay, you will take double wounds in combat result. If KB DOESN'T intercept stage 3/4 above, you suffer the wound, and if you don't save you take a wound. But KB also activates and you take all the wounds on your profile.

KB has to take over and block the wound or KB becomes way more more powerful, counting double wounds for every slay. You can only take the wounds on your profile, but KB doesn't do wounds, it slays. And in Combat Resolution it says count all the wounds on the profile. Yet the unsaved wound is also counted if KB doesn't stop that process.

fattymac04 wrote:
Except Matt, no where does it say that under rolling to wound it inflicts a wound, the section after it says each wound suffered, yes past tense, but yet when do you take wounds. My guess would be right after you Roll to see if you wound, so slightly before saves, yet after rolling to see if you wound.

Of course that would be relevant, if KB actually said it inflicts wounds, which it does not, it SLAYS.

And that's my point, which has been said over and over again, point where in the book that KB actually causes a wound? or even inflicts a wound? It doesn't unless you can find a page, because if it does then KB would not work, but as it does not cause a wound, it works. Rolling to wound is not the same as causing a wound, different steps. You have to roll to see if you can cause a wound, and that part is comparing STR and To, and that is the part where KB comes into effect. If we were to follow the logic that rolling to wound causes a wound, would that mean that if I have 18 hits, I have 18 wounds? No of course not, you take your 18 hits and roll to see if you wound, then after that you wound.

And Strategem, that's how my friends and I break it down, it makes it clear when its divided up as such.

As I said before... So by your logic if you roll a 6 when rolling to wound on MI/MC no wound is caused, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niteware wrote:

The fact that KB is involved does not mean that you are also rolling to wound. That is the whole point. They are seperate. MI would take a wound, they wold not he slain. Ethereal would not take a wound, they would be slain. Ethereal MI would be safe.

You do realise you are contradicting yourself here, right? It doesn't mean you are rolling to wound ecept your are rolling to wound and MI take a wound? Right....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:

No one said that. I think you need to read the rules a few more times. Or one time. MI has nothing to do with Ethereal whatsoever other than showing what an exclusion in a rule looks like. KB writes in very specific detail it doesn't work on MI. KB doesn't write in any detail that it fails to work on Ethereal, so unless something else says so, it is still in play. Ethereal rule does not say it blocks KB. Ethereal makes no mention of KB or any of the effects of KB. Just like Ethereal doesn't block Scouting or Vanguard or charging or Random Movement.

And I think you need to regain your sense of perspective and reason.

KB is a special function of the to wound roll, if you roll a 6 on your to wound roll you do a special wound that does all the remaining wounds on a qualifying models profile. That's it.

"If a model roles a 6 to wound in close combat"

KB is a special wound just like poison is a special hit. Arguing this is just like arguing poison can wound an ethereal because it includes the word "automatically" . Frankly this whole conversation is

"Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magical weapons or effects" (p68)

The FAQ clarifies this

Q: What are ‘magical attacks’? (p68)
A: All attacks made by spells and magic items are considered
to be magical attacks, as are all attacks that are specifically
noted as being magical attacks. Shots fired from magical items
are also considered to be magical attacks, unless their
description specifically states otherwise. Hits inflicted by rolls
on the Miscast table are treated as magical attacks.

Nope, don't see killing blow in there.

The fact that KB is involved does not mean that you are NOT also rolling to wound. That is the whole point. They are seperate. MI would take a wound, they wold not he slain. Ethereal would not take a wound, they would be slain. Ethereal MI would be safe.

Haha, thanks - missed out an important word, added in caps


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:
You inflict a wound after a successful roll but before saves, like you said.

How do I know? 2 ways. Because if something says you take a wound, from some source (spell, item, whatever), unless it says otherwise, you get all normal saves. And at the start of Saving Throws in the BRB it says, now the target rolls a d6 for each wound suffered.

If you're wounded at Step 3 when you roll to wound, then that is where Ethereal steps in. You roll to wound, ethereal cannot be wounded.

Totally. But it can be slain. It can block however many mundane wounds it wants to. But it doesn't block rolling to wound or KB. It blocks the wound suffered from a successful to wound attack from a non magic source. If you roll a 6, the KB rule is activated. Whether a wound is inflicted or not doesn't matter as the model is slain (barring ward).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT:
I just thought of something. I was thinking it didn't matter if you take a wound and KB happens since Ethereal blocks the wound. It does matter. Not only that, KB takes over and the wound never happens. Here ya go:

1) Striking order.
2) Roll to hit.
3) Roll to wound.
4) Take Savings throws
5) Remove Casualties
6) Calculate Combat Result

If you take a wound in 3 because you rolled a 6 and you also slay, you will take double wounds in combat result. If KB DOESN'T intercept stage 3/4 above, you suffer the wound, and if you don't save you take a wound. But KB also activates and you take all the wounds on your profile.

KB has to take over and block the wound or KB becomes way more more powerful, counting double wounds for every slay. You can only take the wounds on your profile, but KB doesn't do wounds, it slays. And in Combat Resolution it says count all the wounds on the profile. Yet the unsaved wound is also counted if KB doesn't stop that process.

The top here is exactly right - KB activating clearly happens before wounds are caused and then diverges from the normal order.

Niteware wrote:

The top here is exactly right - KB activating clearly happens before wounds are caused and then diverges from the normal order.

Also clearly KB is a type of wound that happens when you roll to wound that at no point becomes a spell, magical attack, magical weapon or effect.

The FAQ clarifies, as quoted, what constitutes a magical attack in reference to the page for ethereal rules. It does not mention KB.

It is a roll to wound, if you roll a 6 you do a special killing blow wound, if they can be effected by KB they will die barring ward saves, if they cannot they will take a wound.

In your view of things KB would not do anything on a 6 to MI and MC, you are indicating that a special effect goes off (as far as I can tell, being honest what you are arguing is... silly putting as nice as possible), a special effect that does not work on MI

"killing blow is only effective against..."

it doesn't say it doesn't come into effect, does it? Ergo by your logic (and the rest of team facepalm) if you roll a 6 to wound against MI and MC nothing happens.