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You do realize under the MI/MC rules that KB does not work on them right? I specifically says so, so what your saying is irrelevant. Also for KB to work on MI / MC or monsters you need HKB

Also it says no where in the KB it causes a wound, so once again nice try but your just assuming that it says it causes a wound.

And following your logic that would mean that wounds caused from unstable, which are wounds, would not work on ethereal... even though it is FAQ'ed to do so, because it is considered an effect. Also those wounds from unstable are not magical, once again that FAQ on magical attacks is meaningless cause its dealing with that last section called effect. That last section would also be important if KB caused wounds..... which it does not!

Boomerlinski, You should read the KB section over and over and point where in it, does it say it causes wounds.

Because something comes into effect during the to wound phase, does not mean the effect causes a wound, unless the effect says it does.

For a example.

I have 10 Tomb Guard vs 3 ogre bulls
I roll to hit and get 7 hits, I then roll to wound.
I look at the chart, i need 4+
the 7 hits to wound rolls are 1,2,2,3,4,5,6
The roll of a 6 would cause a KB, but seeing its against MI, that effect would not come into play, since i do not have HKB
I would then cause 3 wounds which the Ogres would have to make saves against.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Also clearly KB is a type of wound

lol. Where does it say that? If it's clear, certainly there has to be a page/paragraph/sentence in the BRB that states so. A TYPE is very specific. Like a shooting attack is a type of attack. A chariot is a unit type. A ward save is a type of save. List where it says a KB is a type of wound.

Again, the combat resolution issue solves this long ass thread. Remove Ethereal from the equation. A normal dude gets hit with KB. Every slay will now cause double wounds in combat resolution if they fail their saves. This becomes huge in some situations. Like if two vampire lords are dueling, one with Master Stroke HKB and the other without. If that attack succeeds and slays, not only does the unit he's in lose the character, it can take 6 wounds of combat resolution, double the amount on the target's profile. KB/HKB become really powerful tools for breaking units. Bloodletters just became awesome again, at 4S and 5 on the charge, they can reduce armor saves and help ensure double wounds. Tomb Guard with halberds buffed by cursed blades, KBing on a 5 or 6 will wreck faces.

DukeRustfield wrote:

The roll of the dice is the same one for your chart. You are never told to ignore the chart.

But you are. Because it says a roll of 6 slays. Slay is not a result of to wound. Successful or unsuccessful wound are the ONLY possible results of consulting the to wound chart. So says the BRB.

As you stated it slays regardless of number of wounds. It does not say remove from play or remove as a casualty. We should be able to establish that the terminology of slays/slain is irrelevant as the result is the same. Your KB 'slays....' model is the same as a model that took a wound and is reduced to zero wounds is 'slain'

Where does killing blow say it does not wound.?
Where does it instruct you to discount the wound?

When it says slay regardless of wounds.

 Peasant wrote:
Your KB 'slays....' model is the same as a model that took a wound and is reduced to zero wounds is 'slain'

Again, your result that is the same does not mean the process is the same. How is this confusing? If your car is stopped does not mean you stepped on the brakes. Just like because you are removed from play/slain/removed casualties does not mean you took a wound. This is the most absolute basic logic. If your head is 6' off the ground does not mean you're 6' tall, you could be standing on a rock.

Re read. It says regardless of the number of wounds. Leaving out the number portion could drastically change the sentence. It never says discount the wounds.

Leaving out number doesn't change the sentence in the slightest. Regardless of wounds would still slay anything 100% dead no matter their wounds. That's what regardless means. Seriously, look it up. It doesn't have to say discount the wounds. It has to say WOUNDED to actually wound. It is a game term. If something says you swap places with another model (Smoke and Mirrors) you do not take a dangerous terrain test for the terrain in between your locations. Even though Smoke and Mirrors doesn't say discounting the terrain in between. For an action to trigger, it has to be triggered. Otherwise you do the instructions in the rule given and nothing else. Wounding is a specific game action. It never once takes place.

Incorrect. Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by magic....so you don't roll to wound without magic.

Where does it say that? What page and sentence says "DON'T ROLL TO WOUND WITHOUT MAGIC?" Find that or please stop trolling. You've added nothing except repeating the same lack of rules over and over. Why not at least be interesting and post imaginary rules in limerick form so they can be funny?

Rolling to wound and wounding are the same action.

That is, frankly, idiotic. And it's contradicted by the first sentence under Saving Throws. And it would mean every ability that causes an instant wound would have to roll on the to wound table.

Do you roll saves on failed to wound rolls?
No? Why not? Maybe because you didn't wound?

You just said they are the same thing in that stupendously astute bit of logic above. You need to roll to save everything because they are the same.

DukeRustfield wrote:
You inflict a wound after a successful roll but before saves, like you said.

How do I know? 2 ways. Because if something says you take a wound, from some source (spell, item, whatever), unless it says otherwise, you get all normal saves. And at the start of Saving Throws in the BRB it says, now the target rolls a d6 for each wound suffered.

This is the most accurate thing you have said and solves your dilemma.
You roll to wound and take a wound. That is what you save against. You don't get an armour save against KB, YOu don't usually get armour saves against S10 either.
And yes it does say from each wound suffered.
Why? Because you just got wounded.

If you're wounded at Step 3 when you roll to wound, then that is where Ethereal steps in. You roll to wound, ethereal cannot be wounded.

Totally. But it can be slain. It can block however many mundane wounds it wants to. But it doesn't block rolling to wound or KB. It blocks the wound suffered from a successful to wound attack from a non magic source. If you roll a 6, the KB rule is activated. Whether a wound is inflicted or not doesn't matter as the model is slain (barring ward).

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Niteware wrote:

The top here is exactly right - KB activating clearly happens before wounds are caused and then diverges from the normal order.

Also clearly KB is a type of wound that happens when you roll to wound that at no point becomes a spell, magical attack, magical weapon or effect.

The FAQ clarifies, as quoted, what constitutes a magical attack in reference to the page for ethereal rules. It does not mention KB.

It is a roll to wound, if you roll a 6 you do a special killing blow wound, if they can be effected by KB they will die barring ward saves, if they cannot they will take a wound.

In your view of things KB would not do anything on a 6 to MI and MC, you are indicating that a special effect goes off (as far as I can tell, being honest what you are arguing is... silly putting as nice as possible), a special effect that does not work on MI

"killing blow is only effective against..."

it doesn't say it doesn't come into effect, does it? Ergo by your logic (and the rest of team facepalm) if you roll a 6 to wound against MI and MC nothing happens.

Seriously? Yes, the killing blow does nothing to the MI or MC. BUT YOU STILL ROLLED TO WOUND!. As the KB had no effect, you continue in the normal process. How do you not get that? By your logic, any character with KB could ONLY wound on a 6, because else KB is not effective. Ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Attacking can be represented with a flow chart, with special rules each having their own trees within the chart. Poison takes you straight to aves, KB comes off after Roll to wound. They each have branches back to the vanilla process, but also bypass bits. Poison, for example, bypasses KB.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Re read. It says regardless of the number of wounds. Leaving out the number portion could drastically change the sentence. It never says discount the wounds.

Leaving out number doesn't change the sentence in the slightest. Regardless of wounds would still slay anything 100% dead no matter their wounds. That's what regardless means. Seriously, look it up. It doesn't have to say discount the wounds. It has to say WOUNDED to actually wound. It is a game term. If something says you swap places with another model (Smoke and Mirrors) you do not take a dangerous terrain test for the terrain in between your locations. Even though Smoke and Mirrors doesn't say discounting the terrain in between. For an action to trigger, it has to be triggered. Otherwise you do the instructions in the rule given and nothing else. Wounding is a specific game action. It never once takes place.

No.
Regardless of wounds would mean the wounds don't matter.
Regardless of the number of wounds means the number is irrelevant.
Again.. It says wounded when you roll to wound. Or no wound if you fail.

Incorrect. Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by magic....so you don't roll to wound without magic.

Where does it say that? What page and sentence says "DON'T ROLL TO WOUND WITHOUT MAGIC?" Find that or please stop trolling. You've added nothing except repeating the same lack of rules over and over. Why not at least be interesting and post imaginary rules in limerick form so they can be funny?

Oh rules lawyering... How I love thee...

It has probably been stated somewhere in this thread that I overlooked, but I am confident that RAI: KB does NOT work on ethereal.

RAW... well that is obviously up for debate haha.

In the spirit of arguement, has anyone checked adjacent rules such as regeneration (which has a bit about killing blow in it... it might say "does not work against WOUNDS caused by killing blow") or the text for items such as the golden crown that ignore wounds "even those caused by... etc)

I have recently moved to Korea and am without my rule books! So I am just spit balling ideas

Hey Duke just start to ignore Peasant, because all he is doing is trolling, it is quite obvious now.

He has yet to show where KB says it wounds. Rolling to wound and wounding are quite 2 different topics in the BRB, it has been shown throughout this whole thread that they are different, to keep on insisting that they are the same is idiotic. the fact you keep on ignoring all the posts showing as such that they are different or even the hard evidence that A) KB works on Ethereal B) KB slays C) KB doesn't cause wounds, means you are just trolling because you cannot accept the fact that it works that way. As I said earlier if you just change KB's name to something else, a lot more people wouldn't even care, its the name that makes people go WTF, that can't work.

When there is a rule argument and one side presents evidence from the BRB and the other side just paraphrases, means the person paraphrasing has a weak case.

To answer some of your insane questions at the end of you last post:

A failed to wound roll does not cause a wound.
A successful to wound roll..is a wound and causes wounding effects.
Lets try some more things to help you.
Special effects change things. They let you skip steps. They don't stop you mid step
Poison attacks..lets you skip rolling to wound. If you are immune to poison does the 6 miss.? No.
Poison wind globe modifies your wound chart so you wound on a 4+ no matter what.
Automatic wounds let you skip the 'roll to wound'
Automatic hits let you skip roll to hit.
Which by the way, KB does not work if you skip the chart.
KB tells you to ignore the armour save portion.
It tells you to roll to wound.
You say it doesn't wound..it is easy enough to say that it causes one wound then slays regardless of the remaining wounds. You won't like that cuz it goes against what you incorrectly want KB to do. Whatever way it is only the remaing wounds on the targets profile. It doesn't matter how many are there. It's all you get. Say for example the model had 7 wounds but is now down to 3..KB triggers you can take 1 slay the other 2 and you only get +3 combat res. or you slay all 3 and get +3. Only difference is what you want it to do.
You demanded I show you a rule that says you cause a wound..I don't need to, that is what the roll to wound is for. it is a direct part of the game process.
Show me the rule that says you discount or ignore the wound you rolled on the chart?
You 'slay' doesn't cut it..there are many ways you slay. Some of which cause wounds (like KB)

-Lets see here, you admit special effects change things, well that's good cause KB does as much
-Poison attacks and the wind globes have no matter in the discussion of KB, they are a different special rule that is quite different from KB
-Automatic hits and wounds, once again irrelevant to KB
-Yup KB doesn't work if you skip the chart, and that's important for what?
-And yes KB ignores AS, nothing new there
-Ummm not really on this part, it says on the to wound roll of a 6
-Okay i see where your going with this, once again you provide no evidence, you are just assuming, and just to point out for the millionth time, KB comes into effect on a "to wound roll of a 6" not a WOUND, to keep saying as much is trolling as its been pointed out over and over.
-Oh now your saying you don't have to show evidence because your assuming that KB causes a wound cause it rolls on the to wound chart???? Like above, it says it slays, not cause wounds. This is again trolling
-Um... no one is saying that? I don't understand what your asking, discounting rolls? KB comes into effect on the roll of a 6, there's no point in the wound generated by the 6, because the target is slayed. Unless the target is MI, in which case KB doesn't work and the 6 stands as a wound. There is no discarding the 6 or the wound it would generate if KB didn't come into effect. These are two different things, not one.
-And again you say KB causes wounds..... with no evidence it does as much... Trolling

I have a few questions for you, these will be hard

1) Point where in the rule book that KB causes wounds

2) Show me where an effect cannot take place during a game step?

*edit
Sorry for being kind of rude, but I really dislike trolls, like really really dislike trolls. If you cannot answer these 2 questions, and respond with insults and assumptions with no evidence, you then are a troll. If you respond nicely because you can't show evidence and answer the questions, then your case that KB is negated by Ethereal is over. If you actually answer these questions with evidence, then we will see what happens, my guess another 5 pages of the same arguments, or one side admitting defeat.

Niteware wrote:
Seriously? Yes, the killing blow does nothing to the MI or MC. BUT YOU STILL ROLLED TO WOUND!. As the KB had no effect, you continue in the normal process. How do you not get that? By your logic, any character with KB could ONLY wound on a 6, because else KB is not effective. Ridiculous.

You seem to have confused yourself here, not surprising really when you have a bunch of you arguing that KB suddenly becomes a magical attack....

You and your ilk are essentially arguing that when you roll a 6 to wound in combat the special "killing blow effect" comes into play which can remove things from the table despite them being immune to that wound. Is that not correct? I know it is. You're arguing that a 6 doesn't cause a wound it causes a slay. So being that it's says that killing blow is "only effective against infantry, cavalry and warbeasts" (p72) but in no place does it say it does not come into effect; in fact it says "if a model with the killing blow special rule roles a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent". Crikey it even says it there in black and white "rolls a 6 to wound", something you cannot do to ethereal without a magic source of wounding.

So following that order, where are you getting your wound for MI or MC? KB is after all ineffective against them and you've replaced the wound with the killing blow effect going off, right?

The truth is, of course, they do suffer that wound because, although they are immune to the killing blow wound, they are not immune to being wounded.

I'm not going to call anybody any idiot here, but some of you have talked yourself into a special kind of stupid if you think a non magical KB attack can somehow hurt an ethereal model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fattymac04 wrote:
*edit
Sorry for being kind of rude, but I really dislike trolls, like really really dislike trolls. If you cannot answer these 2 questions, and respond with insults and assumptions with no evidence, you then are a troll. If you respond nicely because you can't show evidence and answer the questions, then your case that KB is negated by Ethereal is over. If you actually answer these questions with evidence, then we will see what happens, my guess another 5 pages of the same arguments, or one side admitting defeat.

You should be sorry, the whole tone of your post is insulting and dismissive.

You dismiss a poster, who has been perfectly courteous (more so than yourself), and his well presented arguments as trolling and then start handing out ultimatums as if you've been appointed as some sort of arbiter when, quite frankly, your arguments have been the most poorly presented and structured out of anybody posting in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fattymac04 wrote:

-Okay i see where your going with this, once again you provide no evidence, you are just assuming, and just to point out for the millionth time, KB comes into effect on a "to wound roll of a 6" not a WOUND, to keep saying as much is trolling as its been pointed out over and over.
-Oh now your saying you don't have to show evidence because your assuming that KB causes a wound cause it rolls on the to wound chart???? Like above, it says it slays, not cause wounds. This is again trolling
-And again you say KB causes wounds..... with no evidence it does as much... Trolling

Just because you keep repeating something (baselessly and rudely I'll add) doesn't make it so.

1) Point where in the rule book that KB causes wounds

It is a function of rolling to wound which happens as part of the rolling to wound stage, the wounds it does (if any) are counted towards combat resolution. It counts the EXACT amount of WOUNDS that have been done for combat resolution when you are counting up the WOUNDS you have done. If you roll a 6 against MI or MC and they fail their armor saves etc it does a WOUND. if you are susceptible to KB you may take a ward save if you have one to stop those WOUNDS. Ward saves can be used to prevent WOUNDS (p44).

Is that clear enough for you on the whole wounding thing? Because if it's still unclear I think you are the one who needs accusing of trolling

It counts the EXACT amount of WOUNDS that have been done for combat resolution when you are counting up the WOUNDS you have done.

Combat resolution isn't a wound. You've been shown this already and repeatedly ignored it. Lots of things cause combat resolution. Having a banner. Having more ranks. Do those cause wounds? The section on combat resolution has no effect whatsoever on order of combat, to hit, wounding. It comes after all that stuff.

Ward saves can be used to prevent WOUND

So can armor saves. So can init saves. So can LD rolls. So can regen saves. But that doesn't mean if you take a LD roll you're suffering a wound. A hammer can hit a nail but that doesn't mean a nail can only be hit by a hammer or a hammer can only hit a nail. Again, basic logic. A blade of realities ignores ward saves, according to your logic that means it can't cause wounds. Because everything has a 1:1 relationship in the WHFB universe. Strength can only be used in attacks and can't be used to prevent destruction in Dwellers.

You're kind of new here, Boomer. I'd suggest browsing around the forums a bit and maybe reading up on the rules before going full on river troll.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Combat resolution isn't a wound. You've been shown this already and repeatedly ignored it. Lots of things cause combat resolution. Having a banner. Having more ranks. Do those cause wounds? The section on combat resolution has no effect whatsoever on order of combat, to hit, wounding. It comes after all that stuff.

Yes lots of things cause combat resolution and they have there own section dealing with them. Combat resolution for killing blow however is dealt with under the WOUNDS INFLICTED (p52) and it very clearly tells you to the count the number of WOUNDS that were INFLICTED in combat by killing blow.

So can armor saves. So can init saves. So can LD rolls. So can regen saves. But that doesn't mean if you take a LD roll you're suffering a wound. A hammer can hit a nail but that doesn't mean a nail can only be hit by a hammer or a hammer can only hit a nail. Again, basic logic. A blade of realities ignores ward saves, according to your logic that means it can't cause wounds. Because everything has a 1:1 relationship in the WHFB universe. Strength can only be used in attacks and can't be used to prevent destruction in Dwellers.

However ward saves cannot be taken to stop instant kills unless specified otherwise. You can take a ward save against KB, you know why? Because it isn't a T test or any of the other utterly irrelevant things you've mentioned. It's a special type of WOUND that does all the remaining WOUNDS on your profile, and said WOUNDS are counted for combat res.

Your argument boils down to "if you roll a 6 to wound a slay replacement effect comes into play". Being that it says nothing about KB turning off when attacking MI/MC but that it is only ineffective (not "not in effect") against them, how do you wound them when you roll a 6 and not discount the "ineffective" killing blow which has replaced the wound?

It's simple, killing blow is an effect of wounding something, if you can't wound it in the first place then you cannot killing blow it. NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

Additionally this doesn't even take into account characters that would have an item that made them killing blow immune where they normally fulfill all the requirements for KB to work. Do they ignore all rolls of 6 to wound them?

You're kind of new here, Boomer. I'd suggest browsing around the forums a bit and maybe reading up on the rules before going full on river troll.

Yeah and I've kinda been playing GW games since the early 80's (never mind the fact I've been registered here a full year before you lol) and I would suggest that you get some manners and a real argument instead of insulting me with your troll comment just because you know you're waving an empty sack.

If we're making thinly veiled insults... er I'm mean "suggestions" I'd suggest you try and work on your reading comprehension and sense of reason.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:
You can take a ward save against KB, you know why?

Read the rules.

Really. Stop and read them.

They tell you that the results of a successful Killing Blow can be negated. (Ward saves already can negate wounds. Why is this extra bit needed then?)
Note that you also get to save the Wound dealt by the same six with it.

RAW means the text.
The text states you are wrong.

editing to add:
I play Tomb Kings.
Most of my Army book does not make sense.
Calling this one thing out as "obviously meant to be played differently" and people who defending the actual rules as "rules lawyers" is childish and simply has no place in a discussion.
The rules DO state this.
Mis-reading, mis-applying, or simply not liking a rule does not change the actual rule.
(Of course, feel free to house rule anything - just be an adult and admit it.)

KB does not "suddenly become magical" because it does not need to.
It slays. Ethereal does not stop a model from being slain.


Full stop.

Boom are you making up rules? because it sure looks like it, i cant find anywhere in the BRB to rules you are talking about.

I still don't get your insistence on the whole MI and KB thing, its been covered and bears no relevance to the argument at hand.

once again I will post this:

QUOTE ("BRB p.44")
"Instant Kills"
Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as casualties... Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victim's profile is completely irrelevant - just remove the model from play....

QUOTE ("BRB p.68")
ETHEREAL
...Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects....

QUOTE ("BRB p.72")
KILLING BLOW
If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent - regardless of the number of wounds on the victim's profile. Armor saves and regeneration saves cannot be taken against a Killing Blow. A ward save can be attempted - if passed, the ward save prevents all damage from the Killing Blow....

QUOTE ("BRB p.51")
REMOVE CASUALTIES
With saving throws made or failed, you now need to remove the slain. Close combat casualties are removed in the same way as shooting ones....

I wanted to outline these in this specific order to reach the following logical conclusions:
The first rule states that some rules cause "instant kills" and do not inflict wounds. "(unless specified otherwise)" is bolded to reflect how Killing Blow is not an exception to this "instant kill" rule as KB offers a ward save (tying it to the bold in the KILLING BLOW rules quote above).
Ethereals are immune to non-magical wound generators. As Killing Blow is not causing wounds as explained in the first bullet point above, Ethereal does not get around the Killing Blow effect.
KILLING BLOW states that it "slays" an opponent. REMOVE CASUALTIES ties the phrase "slain" (past tense of "slay") to the phrase "close combat casualties". "Casualties" is also explicitly stated in the first rule above for "Instant Kills", thus reaffirming that KILLING BLOW falls under the aegis of the "Instant Kills" rule.

Killing Blow removes casualties without causing wounds if the target fails to make a ward save. Ergo, Ethereal does not ignore Killing Blow.


Now this is what the the argument on hand is for KB to work on Ethereal, your job is to prove it wrong, if you can't do so it stands as working. And so far all you have been doing is trolling and making up rules and bringing up stuff that doesn't even matter to this argument. So please stick to the argument at hand and try to prove this wrong.

The main problem here is that you need to reference many rules outside the rule itself in an attempt to prove how KB works.
Just because it uses the word slays proves nothing and that is the entire basis of your reasoning behind KB vs. Ethereal.

Bottom line..
What is the purpose of rolling to wound for every single weapon. In the game?
They all follow the same process unless directed otherwise.
Every time you roll to wound it follows the same process.
Your claim that it does not say you caused a wound is just as useful as it does not say you 'do NOT' cause a wound.
But the game process and flow shows that a wound is caused.
KB never instructs you to break process it only expands on it.
If you were supposed to deviate.it tells you specifically to deviate.
Every time you roll a 6 to wound you wound. That is game process. Trying to change an Idea in the roll to wound section to prove a point about KB shows just how outlandish the idea is.
The KB rule itself provides the information needed.
KB does not tell you to change anything other than no armour save.
The term slays is irrelevant to the process.
Dies. Chokes. Kicks the bucket. Anal prolapse..all irrelevant because they DO NoT change the combat process.

KB never tells you to leave.
Again...it is a process after the wound. Just like d3 or d6

Rolling a six ALSO causes a wound.

That gets ignored.
Ethereal still does not ignore being slain, regardless.

So it is.

DukeRustfield spelled that out wonderfully, with implications that I had not read until now.

I love how you state that the written rule is irrelevant for RAW, also.

re:

 Peasant wrote:
The term slays is irrelevant to the process.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:
Combat resolution for killing blow however is dealt with under the WOUNDS INFLICTED (p52) and it very clearly tells you to the count the number of WOUNDS that were INFLICTED in combat by killing blow.

Okay, you really are a troll.

Because you went ALL CAPSLOL and quoted the page of text that does not exist. First off, it's combat resolution, for the 30th time which has nothing to do with wounding someone. You do not roll on combat resolution to see if you're wounded. The page on wounding (surprise) is where you find the totality of those rules. Further, it does not say Killing Blow inflicts wounds, it tells you KB COUNTS AS HAVING SCORED (LOOK, CAPS!). Because combat resolution is about calculating your score, not inflicting wounds. It's also not about movement. Or to hit.

This thread is basically over if the only people who can try and debate it repeatedly make up rules that have no mention at all in any source. And when asked to answer simple questions and back up their claims, they ignore them. So fine,

pg. 68 under Ethereal, says DOESN'T BLOCK KILLING BLOW.

Can't get clearer than that. Not sure how we missed it.

 Peasant wrote:
The main problem here is that you need to reference many rules outside the rule itself in an attempt to prove how KB works.
Just because it uses the word slays proves nothing and that is the entire basis of your reasoning behind KB vs. Ethereal.

Bottom line..
What is the purpose of rolling to wound for every single weapon. In the game?
They all follow the same process unless directed otherwise.
Every time you roll to wound it follows the same process.
Your claim that it does not say you caused a wound is just as useful as it does not say you 'do NOT' cause a wound.
But the game process and flow shows that a wound is caused.
KB never instructs you to break process it only expands on it.
If you were supposed to deviate.it tells you specifically to deviate.
Every time you roll a 6 to wound you wound. That is game process. Trying to change an Idea in the roll to wound section to prove a point about KB shows just how outlandish the idea is.
The KB rule itself provides the information needed.
KB does not tell you to change anything other than no armour save.
The term slays is irrelevant to the process.
Dies. Chokes. Kicks the bucket. Anal prolapse..all irrelevant because they DO NoT change the combat process.

KB never tells you to leave.
Again...it is a process after the wound. Just like d3 or d6

You actually need to reference several rules to explain how most things work. Killing Blow is a type of instant kill (which says explicitly that they don't caus wounds), so both of those rules are needed. So are all the rules for CC. Then for Combat Resolution.

Anyway, the thread is clearly done unless:
1 You can show that KB is not an instant kill, as defined in the BRB
2 You find a section of the BRB that directoy bears, which you have not yet quoted (as all current objectionshave been debunked)
3 You can persuade GW to quickly change the RAW in the FAQ

It can be hard to rail back after losing a debate - no need to concede, just stop posting. Or keep going because ir is funny.

 kirsanth wrote:
Rolling a six ALSO causes a wound.

Finally 167 posts to get a partially correct response.
Rolling a six ( you need to remove the 'also') causes a wound.
As stated, that is the whole purpose of rolling to wound.
Every time you are asked to roll to wound you are rolling to wound.

Ethereal still does not ignore being slain, regardless.

No one has ever said Ethereal can not be slain. This is another part of the difficulties.
Slain and slay are NOT rules. The terms are used when referencing models that are to be removed as casualties.

I love how you state that the written rule is irrelevant for RAW, also.

re:

 Peasant wrote:
The term slays is irrelevant to the process.

This comment also hints towards your difficulties. You are taking words and sentences and taking them out of context, applying your own usage, or not keeping them with the other words/sentences that keep them in context.
I did say that slays is irrelevant, because
1. 'slays'/slain is not a rule so it does not affect RAW
2. 'Slays' (along with slain) is a descriptive term used for models that are to be removed as casualties that have lost all of their wounds. When your model is dead or killed. Like BRB pg51 In the Remove casualties section..."with saving throws made or failed, you need to remove the slain.' or BRB pg 106 Excess wounds..."If a character is slain and suffers more wounds than he has on his characteristic profile..."
So yes slay/slain is irrelevant to RAW.


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Niteware wrote:


You actually need to reference several rules to explain how most things work. Killing Blow is a type of instant kill (which says explicitly that they don't caus wounds), so both of those rules are needed. So are all the rules for CC. Then for Combat Resolution.

My continued error not to be 100% specific and list several examples..
You do need to reference several rules...when instructed to do so to follow the process of the game.
You are partially correct..
Instant Kills don't cause wounds.
KB is NOT an instant kill once again the reasons why..
1.For instant kills you take, T, S, Ld, I, or some other test that does not use wounds.
2. You rolled to wound.
KB never tells you to go anywhere else. All you need is within the rule for KB it does not require additional rules and it fits in the flow of game process..
You are making an incorrect assumption that it is an instant kill which is what is lengthening this thread based on the incorrect notion of what 'slays' means and that it doesn't specifically say you cause a wound.
Can you find any other times you roll to wound and don't use your roll to wound to wound??

Anyway, the thread is clearly done unless:
1 You can show that KB is not an instant kill, as defined in the BRB
2 You find a section of the BRB that directoy bears, which you have not yet quoted (as all current objectionshave been debunked)
3 You can persuade GW to quickly change the RAW in the FAQ

Yes this thread is nearly done.
I have shown that KB is not an instant kill several times and several ways. I should probably list them again...
1. You roll to wound with KB. Instant kills you do not
2. You take characteristic tests with instant kills. You do not take them with KB.
3. KB is never referred to as an instant kill.
4. KB never says remove as a casualty, nor remove from play.
5. KB uses slay (present tense of slain) to describe the death of the model just as slain is used many times through all books.

Your part 2 I don't fully understand...I will guess you mean a section that directly shows something??
Ahh, is this an alter-ego??? the last part of section 2 is awfully reminiscent of another poster around here??
I have given rules, pages and logic to show how KB works within the game process through rolling to wound, how its effects that work like d3 and the fact that if you wound automatically you do not use KB. KB does not say remove from play. KB does not say remove as casualty. KB does not force the opponent to take characteristic test like instant kills do.

I have repeated myself because the only bits of 'debunking'.(where have I heard that before ) have been the same as the base argument which is weak at best.
Let me repeat that argument for you..
KB says you 'slay' and it does not say you cause a wound.
Both have been refuted.
1. 'slay' and 'slain' are game terms not rules. Can you show any examples of slay or slain as a game rule?? ..Other than your incorrect notion with KB.
2 Outside of your incorrect notion on KB, Can you show an example of rolling to wound where it is not going to be the process to wound??
3. KB does not specifically state that a wound is caused because it does not need to..that is why you rolled to wound. If you were supposed to ignore it you would be specifically told to.
Do you have anything to add other than 'slays' and you aren't told to?
4. Rolling to wound to not cause a wound is not part of gaming process nor does it make any sense.

It can be hard to rail back after losing a debate - no need to concede, just stop posting. Or keep going because ir is funny.

It can be hard to rail back after losing a debate and I can understand your difficulties in conceding. It's o.k. I will forgive you.
I am pretty funny. Pretty smart too.

fattymac04 wrote:
Boom are you making up rules? because it sure looks like it, i cant find anywhere in the BRB to rules you are talking about.

Be specific and I'll quote you a page number.

I still don't get your insistence on the whole MI and KB thing, its been covered and bears no relevance to the argument at hand.

I have shown multiple times how if it were played in the horribly convoluted and nonsensical way that is being suggested it would not work, you would not wound monstrous infantry.

You are arguing that when you roll a 6 to wound the killing blow "slay" effect comes into play as a replacement effect on the to wound roll, that is on the roll to make where you see if you wound..

Let me super clear:

1 :roll dice to wound
1-5 WOUND
6 Killing Blow Slay effect which is not a wound and replaces the wound

2: Check type of model you are attacking: It's a Monstrous Infantry which killing blow is ineffective against nothing happens.

Now, please tell me where (and quote page number) where it says killing blow turns off against MI and MC? All I see is in the description is that it's ineffective against them. That doesn't say it is not in effect, does it?

QUOTE ("BRB p.44")
"Instant Kills"
Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as casualties... Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victim's profile is completely irrelevant - just remove the model from play....

You forgot the bit that says "after failing a T or LD test for example"

Please show me the page number in the BRB where it refers to killing blow as an instant kill, I only have the bit where it shows it as a a special result when rolling to wound.

QUOTE ("BRB p.68")
ETHEREAL
...Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects....

Yes and killing blow happens when you ROLL TO WOUND.

QUOTE ("BRB p.72")
KILLING BLOW
If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent - regardless of the number of wounds on the victim's profile. Armor saves and regeneration saves cannot be taken against a Killing Blow. A ward save can be attempted - if passed, the ward save prevents all damage from the Killing Blow....

Please show me where slay is listed as a term in the BRB.

I only have it on

p3 description of WOUNDS

Quote
Large monsters and mighty heroes are able to withstand several wounds that would slay

p25 on fleeing
p31 on hex spells
p52 on WOUNDS INFLICTED
p87 on war machines where is describes how it can "slay fearsome monsters with a single shot"
p103 on overkill "if one model slays the other then any excess wounds they inflicted above and beyond those needed to slay the opponent"
p109 shooting at war machines "the crews armor save is still used to prevent any wounds inflicted, as it is they the attack is attempting to slay"
p111 on receiving bolt thrower hits "the bolt fails to slay a target

There are a few more examples in there if you really want me to further prove my point. All of them descriptive and funnily enough all of them referring to situations where you lose wounds. No listing for a slay rule though. I'm happy to do this for slain and slaying to if you like.

QUOTE ("BRB p.51")
REMOVE CASUALTIES
With saving throws made or failed, you now need to remove the slain. Close combat casualties are removed in the same way as shooting ones....

So casualties caused by wounds are slain to?

I wanted to outline these in this specific order to reach the following logical conclusions:
The first rule states that some rules cause "instant kills" and do not inflict wounds. "(unless specified otherwise)" is bolded to reflect how Killing Blow is not an exception to this "instant kill" rule as KB offers a ward save (tying it to the bold in the KILLING BLOW rules quote above).
Ethereals are immune to non-magical wound generators. As Killing Blow is not causing wounds as explained in the first bullet point above, Ethereal does not get around the Killing Blow effect.
KILLING BLOW states that it "slays" an opponent. REMOVE CASUALTIES ties the phrase "slain" (past tense of "slay") to the phrase "close combat casualties". "Casualties" is also explicitly stated in the first rule above for "Instant Kills", thus reaffirming that KILLING BLOW falls under the aegis of the "Instant Kills" rule.

You've come to some conclusions just not logical ones.

If it were an instant kill it would refer to itself and reference the rule, it does not. If it were an instant kill there would be no need to say it doesn't allow you an armor or regeneration save as instant kills allow no saves. What you are showing is confirmation bias. I have shown you above what slays mean, it's a descriptive term most often used with the removal of wounds.

Killing Blow removes casualties without causing wounds if the target fails to make a ward save. Ergo, Ethereal does not ignore Killing Blow.

No, killing blow happens on a 6 when you roll to wound, which you cannot do to ethereal without a magic weapon, ergo you cannot killing blow wound something that you cannot wound in the first place.

Now this is what the the argument on hand is for KB to work on Ethereal,

Yes and it is laughable

your job is to prove it wrong,

Oh that's been done a long time ago.

if you can't do so it stands as working.

As it stands everybody plays it exactly as I have said, tournaments, shops, the lot. Don't let your moment of confusion delude you to the wider reality of the world.

And so far all you have been doing is trolling and making up rules and bringing up stuff that doesn't even matter to this argument. So please stick to the argument at hand and try to prove this wrong.

You have no idea what a troll or trolling is either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:

Okay, you really are a troll.

Lack an argument? Just accuse the person you're conversing with of trolling!

You guys need to stop this. You clearly have no idea what a troll or trolling is.

Because you went ALL CAPSLOL and quoted the page of text that does not exist. First off, it's combat resolution, for the 30th time which has nothing to do with wounding someone. You do not roll on combat resolution to see if you're wounded. The page on wounding (surprise) is where you find the totality of those rules. Further, it does not say Killing Blow inflicts wounds, it tells you KB COUNTS AS HAVING SCORED (LOOK, CAPS!). Because combat resolution is about calculating your score, not inflicting wounds. It's also not about movement. Or to hit.

Which page and what bit would that be exactly? Be specific.

This thread is basically over if the only people who can try and debate it repeatedly make up rules that have no mention at all in any source.

Explain yourself

And when asked to answer simple questions and back up their claims, they ignore them. So fine,

Which has been done for you. Just because you have no solid argument don't try and crow victory whilst running out of the door.

pg. 68 under Ethereal, says DOESN'T BLOCK KILLING BLOW.

Can't get clearer than that. Not sure how we missed it.

Don't be an idiot.

 Iranna wrote:
Hey Dakka, quick rules question.

I'm very new to Fantasy and noticed a "discrepancy" regarding Killing Blow and the Ethereal special rules:

The Ethereal special rules mean that you cannot be wounded by mundane weapons, however, the Killing Blow special rule states that the enemy model is "slain instantly" on the To Wound roll of a '6'.

As far as I understand it, "slain instantly" does not mean that the model suffers a wound and therefore, Ethereal wouldn't protect you from it. Simmilarly, Just because you technically cannot wound it, does not prevent you from rolling To Wound with your attacks. Therefore, would it not be the case that any Killing Blow attack would bypass the Ethereal special rule?

Thanks Dakka,

Iranna.

Please turn to page 103 in the rule book.

First column, second paragraph it states:

(each successful Killing Blow scores the same amount of wounds the slain character has on its profile)

So killing blow does score wounds and since ethereal models are immune to wounds from non magic attacks they would be immune to non magic killing blows.

Has anyone quoted the relevant rules on this yet?

*ducks*

Not any that state that Ethereal stops a model from being slain from Killing Blow.

editing to add:
unless you mean house rules; pages of those have been posted.

Not to let anyone infer otherwise, I have nothing against house rules and am an honest enough person to admit it.
e.g. We don't play with a Folding Fortress, but not because we argue that it is illegal, against the rules, or that anyone using one is a rules lawyer or childish.

It just is not how we want to play.

What's interesting, is that the killing blow rule allows a ward save to "prevent all damage".

Great, we have rules for wounds and removed from play, and killing blow shows up and adds in "Slays" and "Damage".

I think we're going to need the rules for both slays, and for damage; since that's what happens when you pass/fail a ward save.
Please supply page numbers for both.


-Matt

Duke_Corwin wrote:

 Iranna wrote:
Hey Dakka, quick rules question.

I'm very new to Fantasy and noticed a "discrepancy" regarding Killing Blow and the Ethereal special rules:

The Ethereal special rules mean that you cannot be wounded by mundane weapons, however, the Killing Blow special rule states that the enemy model is "slain instantly" on the To Wound roll of a '6'.

As far as I understand it, "slain instantly" does not mean that the model suffers a wound and therefore, Ethereal wouldn't protect you from it. Simmilarly, Just because you technically cannot wound it, does not prevent you from rolling To Wound with your attacks. Therefore, would it not be the case that any Killing Blow attack would bypass the Ethereal special rule?

Thanks Dakka,

Iranna.

Please turn to page 103 in the rule book.

First column, second paragraph it states:

(each successful Killing Blow scores the same amount of wounds the slain character has on its profile)

So killing blow does score wounds and since ethereal models are immune to wounds from non magic attacks they would be immune to non magic killing blows.

Nice trolling, trying to equate combat res with the process of combat. Shame it wasn't original really.

I believe that it is readily apparent that this thread has already reached the same point as the following thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/534320.page

Do we really need to fill up another 10 pages before we accept that fact?

Saldiven wrote:
I believe that it is readily apparent that this thread has already reached the same point as the following thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/534320.page

Do we really need to fill up another 10 pages before we accept that fact?

I'd actually like to see the rules for "Slays" and "Damage". Since KB doesn't mention wounds or remove from play, all we have to do is figure out the rule effects of Slays and Damage, and the rule will be crystal clear.

-Matt

Yes i agree, this is an issue that as RAW it works in a cheesy way, but RAI it shouldn't. This needs a FAQ. This thread has been nailed with trolls and troll baiting really bad for the last few pages, with a lot of assumptions.

It would be nice if that wound thing about killing blow in the combat res section would actually be part of killing blow, but its there for a reason. The fact it says

"Each successful Killing blow scores the same amount of wounds the slain character has on its profile"
(pg. 103)

"Attacks that kill a model outright (made with a killing blow, say -- see page 72) count as having scored all the slain model's remaining wounds."
(pg. 52)

Shows that KB does not cause wounds, but slays as it says under KB, but for the purposes of combat resolution it scores the wounds. It specifically has its own little areas in both of these sections that point to the fact it only scores wounds for the resolution and the main resolution section even says it kills a model outright.

And yes HawaiiMatt the KB rule adds the term "prevent all damage" but the term slay is used multiple times in the book, in that tense and past tense. Slay is used in the remove causalities step, and models killed outright.

Now for some answering of questions for slay and wounds n stuff

If a model loses its wounds it is slain
If a model is slayed, it is slain
If a model fails a save or die spell, it is slain

Notice in all these cases the model is slain and are removed as casualties

Instant Kills "some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as casualties (after failing a LD or T test, for example). Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victim's profile is completely irrelevant - just remove the model from play, and hope for better luck next time!" pg. 44

"with saving throws made or failed, you now need to remove the slain." pg. 51

"it is a good idea not to immediately remove models that are slain from the table, but instead temporarily place them next to their unit -- you will need to know how many casualties have been caused when working out who won the combat" pg. 51

"Attacks that kill a model outright (made with a killing blow, say -- see page 72) count as having scored all the slain model's remaining wounds."
pg. 52 (combat res section, but points that KB outright kills models, doesn't say it wounds them)

Combine this with the fact KB says it slays its opponent, not wound, I don't see the confusion with the steps of removing casualties and combat res or how KB works, it is clearly spelled out.

For the whole, well you have to roll to wound so it causes a wound thing.

We are not arguing the roll of a 6 would cause a wound and that wound would be negated by ethereal, But that it specifically says that on that to wound roll of a 6, the opponent is slayed. This is an effect of rolling the 6 that triggers KB to come into play, thus KB would instant kill the model meaning that wound that would be negated is negated because the model is dead. The reason why this works and doesn't count as doubling wounds or such is due to that combat resolution section that specifically says KB counts as scoring the models wound for the purpose of combat resolution. It is also set up this way due to the creatures KB does not work on, which would be any monstrous creatures, monsters, characters riding monsters/chariots (this was recently FAQ'ed), chariots, swarms.

Because it would work like this.
I got 10 hits against a unit of MI with my infantry unit that has KB
of those 10 hits, 7 wound
of those 7 wounds, 3 were 6's
Which against a valid target (infantry, cavalry, characters on foot or reg mounted, warbeasts) it would trigger kB and slay them outright
But since they are MI the KB effect does not work

No where am i saying that those 6's never counted for wounds, but that KB is an effect that triggers. It just you can't wound something that is dead.
And yes effects work on Ethereal due to the FAQ making Unstable work , and it never says magical effects.
Because before that FAQ, people were arguing that Ethereal were immune to unstable because it says,

Unstable:
"Unstable units that lose a combat suffer one extra wound for every point by which they lose the combat, with no saves of any kind permitted against these wounds." pg. 78

Ethereal:
"Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects." pg. 68

Nowhere in the Unstable rule does it make a point to say it works on Ethereal, or that those wounds are magical, it just says they take extra wounds for every point they loss the combat by. Thus the logic implied that Ethereal was immune to those wounds, except the fact that those wounds were caused by an effect that triggers when it lost combat. This began the whole effect is supposed to be magical argument, and GW came out with the FAQ that says that unstable works on Ethereal.

This is going the same direction as that did, because KB is an effect that screws up the system slightly, just as unstable does, or about half the damn rules in the BRB. All of this is caused by the way GW decided to word things, and can only be fixed with a FAQ. Like I said earlier, right now RAW it works, RAI, most likely not. I know of 3 tourneys in my area that had this issue in the past few months with this rule, 2 of them decided to allow it, 1 said no. and TO's can decide whatever they want and it stands for that Tourney. No one was really made about it, because it affects very little in the game, ethereal characters, Hexwraiths, Cairnwraiths, and Banshees. Spirit hosts are swarms so that can't be KB. Of course HKB can do alot more, but HKB is so rare its a non issue.

Lets just end this or continue it, but nothign will be solved until a FAQ comes out about it

Edits = spelling and more clarification

Slays is a description in KB text. Ot is not a rule.
Show where slays is a rule.

If your model has no armour or ward and I wound your model that has a single wound, with a halberd it slays your model.

Slays is the description given to removing 'slain' models from the table.
It is not a rule.
It is not the game process.
Slays does not have its own action in this game other than describing casualties.

That is what we are saying, KB doesn't say it wounds, but slays and you remove the slain in the remove causalities phase
Because slayed models = slain as you have just said
Slay is not a rule, but refers to being basically dead/killed out right as i posted above.. etc... so no need of a page
no talk of wounds, nothing
it ignores armor and reg saves, but allows ward saves
KB does have its own action and it comes into effect on the to wound roll of a 6
and on that action it slays its opponent, which you remove in the remove casualties phase
Because that opponent is slain