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So nobody is going to touch the fact that this took place in a town called "Slaughter"?

On topic: this is one of the few cases where I think one could argue that yes, a violent videogame might have helped trigger the event. They're rated +17 for a reason, yet when I worked retail I watched parents buy these games for their children every day, despite my protests. Many thought "Mature" was just a difficulty level, and couldn't fathom that some games were not appropriate for kids. Its not like the ESRB hasn't tried to get the word out either, parents just seem to ignore those ratings with frustrating regularity. At that age some kids just aren't mature enough to realize the consequences of pulling the trigger, and don't need to be playing those kinds of games.

Add in a gun and ammunition being (apparently) carelessly stored so that a small child could get a hold of it didn't help either. You wouldn't leave a large knife, a chainsaw, or any other dangerous object out with a kid that age around, so why on earth did she leave something that's actually designed to kill people where this kid could get to it?

Was she just forgetful with age and forgot she had it? Did someone leave it there, without her knowledge? Perhaps she had a husband who passed away and she wasn't aware the pistol was there at all?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So nobody is going to touch the fact that this took place in a town called "Slaughter"?

Not with a 10 foot pole

Maybe the gun belonged to the kid?
New serial killer is born?

Nothing wrong with the gun laws, If the old lady had a pump action shotgun she could have defended herself.

But (bad) jokes aside, will this be be used to attack games or gun laws?

I agree with most that the parents are to blame, why is an 8 year old playing FPS's instead of Skylanders, and why could the kid access a gun so easily?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:
I’m going to go ahead and blame the victim here. She shouldn’t have has the firearm (together with ammunition) where an 8 year old boy could find it.

As for the violent video game angle, again I blame the victim. Why did you buy GTA 3 for an 8 year old?

I don’t believe that violent video games lead to violent behavior but I do believe that you should respect the rateing on the box.

Good ole'dakka doesn't disappoint

While BLAME THE VICTIM is usually wrong, usually isn't always. In this case, it would appear that the victim significantly participated in the circumstances that led to her victimhood. A tragedy all around, yet again a totally preventable one.

I think there may be more to this story.

 d-usa wrote:
I think this is a case where it is pretty clear that violent games can lead to violent actions if somebody is too young to understand the difference between game and real life, and a good example why there are age ratings for games like that.

Gosh, a kid shot a lady with a copy of an 18-rated game. They should ban those games, they're dangerous.


Funny in the UK that kids rarely shoot ladies with copies of video games. Maybe it's because the UK has stricter laws... on video games. Yes, that must be it.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I think this is a case where it is pretty clear that violent games can lead to violent actions if somebody is too young to understand the difference between game and real life, and a good example why there are age ratings for games like that.

Gosh, a kid shot a lady with a copy of an 18-rated game. They should ban those games, they're dangerous.


Funny in the UK that kids rarely shoot ladies with copies of video games. Maybe it's because the UK has stricter laws... on video games. Yes, that must be it.

Did I say "ban the games"? I said "there is a good example why games have ratings". Games can and will influence behavior, one of the reasons why kids play is to work through real life problems and learn how to handle them. If you know anything about child development then you know that child's play is a lot more complicated and involved than just entertaining themselves. Kids learn through play, that's why violent games like this are not appropriate for 8 year old kids. Which is why they have ratings on them, which were ignored in this case.

The failure of gun safety is such an obvious case that I didn't even mention it.

This really comes down to parenting IMO.


I have an 8 year old son, he has NEVER played a Grand Theft Auto game in his life. Ever. When I had it I wouldnt even let him watch me play it, because its definitely not meant for a child to see, specially at that age.
I have firearms in my home, locked up and no chance for either of my children to get to them.

In some strange chance that my safe pops open, and the locked closet falls apart creating a light of awesome showing my children where the firearms are, they have STILL been taught how dangerous firearms can be and that they have no business touching them when Im not present. My children know, without a shadow of doubt in my mind, that what that kid did was wrong, dangerous and stupid. Its as simple as teaching them between right and wrong, and setting boundaries that they know they should never cross.

Im not saying my kids are on a higher standing or anything, because I know they are not perfect, but for gak sakes, teaching a child rules and them knowing punishment is abound when they break them is all it takes. Unless the kid is a frigging psychopath. Then Im sorry but there isnt much you can do with crazy

Kingkracker has the way of it.

The part I love is where he says it was an accident (ignoring for a moment how he even got his hands on it in the first place), and after he's pressed for more information it comes out that it was "caused by a video game". Anti-video game lobbyists are using this as a smear again (when do these guys quit) and probably fed the kid lines.

Getting back to the main problem, the gun should never have been in reach of the kid. It's an awful tragedy, but it's one that should never have taken place had the grandmother utilized proper gun safety.

 d-usa wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I think this is a case where it is pretty clear that violent games can lead to violent actions if somebody is too young to understand the difference between game and real life, and a good example why there are age ratings for games like that.

Gosh, a kid shot a lady with a copy of an 18-rated game. They should ban those games, they're dangerous.


Funny in the UK that kids rarely shoot ladies with copies of video games. Maybe it's because the UK has stricter laws... on video games. Yes, that must be it.

Did I say "ban the games"? I said "there is a good example why games have ratings". Games can and will influence behavior, one of the reasons why kids play is to work through real life problems and learn how to handle them. If you know anything about child development then you know that child's play is a lot more complicated and involved than just entertaining themselves. Kids learn through play, that's why violent games like this are not appropriate for 8 year old kids. Which is why they have ratings on them, which were ignored in this case.

The failure of gun safety is such an obvious case that I didn't even mention it.

This is where I lie with it. I've bought M rated games before I was 17, but let us be honest here, there isn't much mental development between 15 and 17 for a young man, we're all still pretty much in the "hurr I leik gurls" sort of stage (feel free to change gurls with boyz if that's your preference). But an 8 year old shouldn't be looking at an M rated game. I understand that some people can handle higher ratings a little earlier than some, but 8 is too young no matter the case. There is a lot wrong with this story, and it's a disappointing that guns and video games are going to get the media blame for this when it is quite obviously bad parenting.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Funny in the UK that kids rarely shoot ladies with copies of video games. Maybe it's because the UK has stricter laws... on video games. Yes, that must be it.

Please stop, a gun was used to kill the woman, but that doesn't mean that the woman wasn't in ownership of the gun legally. She probably owned it legally and was just an idiot on how it was stored (i.e. not keeping it locked up where a kid can't get to it). Please take "America is being ruined, because guns!" elsewhere. This is a bad parenting thread.

They aren't calling her a parents but a 'caregiver' which seems awkward. It makes me wonder where the child's parents actually are and what sort of upbringing they have had. Also, unless the kid had the ability to operate the gun fully to load and rack it, it was left easily obtainable and ready to fire.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
They aren't calling her a parents but a 'caregiver' which seems awkward. It makes me wonder where the child's parents actually are and what sort of upbringing they have had. Also, unless the kid had the ability to operate the gun fully to load and rack it, it was left easily obtainable and ready to fire.

The father was quoted in the story, and police found that the victim was the child's grandmother after some inquiries. And I do not doubt for a second that this woman left the gun and ammo in an easy to obtain place, which might be why Jihadin was asking if it was a revolver or a pistol. My buddy's revolver is so simple to load a child probably could do it and pull back the hammer with little issue.

I don't remember getting points for capping grannies in GTA IV...

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I don't remember getting points for capping grannies in GTA IV...

It was GTA 3.This was entirely the fault of whoever put the gun where it was,And whoever bought a game that you need to be 18 to play and gave it to a 8 year old.

Da krimson barun wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I don't remember getting points for capping grannies in GTA IV...

It was GTA 3.This was entirely the fault of whoever put the gun where it was,And whoever bought a game that you need to be 18 to play and gave it to a 8 year old.

The article wrote: the juvenile suspect was playing a video game on the Play Station III 'Grand Theft Auto IV'

But even if it was GTA III I don't remember getting points for capping grannies...

Da krimson barun wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I don't remember getting points for capping grannies in GTA IV...

It was GTA 3.This was entirely the fault of whoever put the gun where it was,And whoever bought a game that you need to be 18 to play and gave it to a 8 year old.

It was GTA IV for the Playstation III (At least that's what the article says).

 Alfndrate wrote:
Please take "America is being ruined, because guns!" elsewhere. This is a bad parenting thread.

No. I won't. No it isn't.

However much I love America, and I do, having spent many months living in various places, there is a sickness in the part of its population that idolises objects designed to kill people. The fact that you attempt to turn this thread into a debate on video games is just the most obvious example of an elephant in the room that we could hope to see.

I'd also suggest that a fascination with firearms is often accompanied by a morbid or unhealthy fascination with violence in general, hence violent video games are likely to be found in a household with guns.

 KingCracker wrote:
This really comes down to parenting IMO.


I have an 8 year old son, he has NEVER played a Grand Theft Auto game in his life. Ever. When I had it I wouldnt even let him watch me play it, because its definitely not meant for a child to see, specially at that age.
I have firearms in my home, locked up and no chance for either of my children to get to them.

Recently My cousin and her kids where at my house. So im a loner so I tayed in my room with thee door open playing Farcry 3. The second oldest boyy kept coming in and trying to watch. Now I do not want them watching me play video games, for various reason, mainly violence. His mother comes in and says it it fine(This kid is in first grade) she doesnt care about violence. But I do. So i have to lie and tell her "It has sex in it" and she stops. For some reason violence doesn't upset us. We think of it as everyday stuff.

 KingCracker wrote:
This really comes down to parenting IMO.


I have an 8 year old son, he has NEVER played a Grand Theft Auto game in his life. Ever. When I had it I wouldnt even let him watch me play it, because its definitely not meant for a child to see, specially at that age.
I have firearms in my home, locked up and no chance for either of my children to get to them.

In some strange chance that my safe pops open, and the locked closet falls apart creating a light of awesome showing my children where the firearms are, they have STILL been taught how dangerous firearms can be and that they have no business touching them when Im not present. My children know, without a shadow of doubt in my mind, that what that kid did was wrong, dangerous and stupid. Its as simple as teaching them between right and wrong, and setting boundaries that they know they should never cross.

Im not saying my kids are on a higher standing or anything, because I know they are not perfect, but for gak sakes, teaching a child rules and them knowing punishment is abound when they break them is all it takes. Unless the kid is a frigging psychopath. Then Im sorry but there isnt much you can do with crazy

Yep... what he said^^.

Also, I'll take it a step further to show them the weapons and teach them to respect it.... just like my own pa did. When I was growing up, I knew we had guns and rifles in the house... I just didn't think they were that big a of a deal...

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Please take "America is being ruined, because guns!" elsewhere. This is a bad parenting thread.

No. I won't. No it isn't.

However much I love America, and I do, having spent many months living in various places, there is a sickness in the part of its population that idolises objects designed to kill people. The fact that you attempt to turn this thread into a debate on video games is just the most obvious example of an elephant in the room that we could hope to see.

I'd also suggest that a fascination with firearms is often accompanied by a morbid or unhealthy fascination with violence in general, hence violent video games are likely to be found in a household with guns.

1) Kid under the age of 10 is given permission by caregiver to play a game that is known for its violence, its lawbreaking, and its mature content
2) Caregiver owns a gun, ammunition, and keeps them in a place that is easily accessible to said child
3) Kid gets gun and ammunition, and shoots caregiver in the back of the head "execution style", a style that can be done in the video game

I dislike violence, I avoid it in my life at all costs, and I don't play hyper violent games (though this might change since I bought payday 2 yesterday >_< ), and yet I own 2 guns. I have these guns for a recreational reasons as well as home defense (my mosin is too impractical for home defense, so I have a handgun). There are people that idolize it, and you can blame that on a number of things. Look at Frazzled, he might have the largest stock of firearms on these boards, yet they're locked up in such a way to prevent things like this from happening. One can enjoy a firearm without being a gun nut that worships Smith and Wesson. And As OP, I'm pretty sure that I can turn this into a video game thread, but I didn't, it's a pretty obvious example of parents not parenting.

There are no children in my house (I'm the youngest at 24), but my rifle is locked in my room in a locked storage box that only I have the key to. The handgun is also locked in a safebox with a numerical keypad that only I know the combination to. The ammunition to both weapons are in that safebox. If I had a child, I would teach them that these are not toys, these are never to be touched unless daddy is watching, and not until they're older.

Taking an active role in your child's development can go a long way to preventing things like this. The problem is that parents do not take an active role in their child's life, and leave it to TV and video games.

Mhm.. I was playing doom and the like when I was 6.... The worst I ever did was trying to break the PC because the Cacodemons hiss almost made me gak my pants.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Please take "America is being ruined, because guns!" elsewhere. This is a bad parenting thread.

No. I won't. No it isn't.

However much I love America, and I do, having spent many months living in various places, there is a sickness in the part of its population that idolises objects designed to kill people. The fact that you attempt to turn this thread into a debate on video games is just the most obvious example of an elephant in the room that we could hope to see.

I'd also suggest that a fascination with firearms is often accompanied by a morbid or unhealthy fascination with violence in general, hence violent video games are likely to be found in a household with guns.

This is what I don't understand. I grew up around firearms. Everyone we knew had them, and available, like leaning against the corner by the front door available. Everyone shot them, went hunting or just shooting. It was no big thing but everyone knew what they could to a person.

This kind of crap didn't happen then.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Please take "America is being ruined, because guns!" elsewhere. This is a bad parenting thread.

No. I won't. No it isn't.

However much I love America, and I do, having spent many months living in various places, there is a sickness in the part of its population that idolises objects designed to kill people. The fact that you attempt to turn this thread into a debate on video games is just the most obvious example of an elephant in the room that we could hope to see.

I'd also suggest that a fascination with firearms is often accompanied by a morbid or unhealthy fascination with violence in general, hence violent video games are likely to be found in a household with guns.

Did you actually read the OP instead of just the thread title? The entire article posted tries to link the killing to video games (GTA IV in particular). We are discussing the article presented, you should try it.

 streamdragon wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Please take "America is being ruined, because guns!" elsewhere. This is a bad parenting thread.

No. I won't. No it isn't.

However much I love America, and I do, having spent many months living in various places, there is a sickness in the part of its population that idolises objects designed to kill people. The fact that you attempt to turn this thread into a debate on video games is just the most obvious example of an elephant in the room that we could hope to see.

I'd also suggest that a fascination with firearms is often accompanied by a morbid or unhealthy fascination with violence in general, hence violent video games are likely to be found in a household with guns.

Did you actually read the OP instead of just the thread title? The entire article posted tries to link the killing to video games (GTA IV in particular). We are discussing the article presented, you should try it.

Don't you see the irony here too... this is a wargaming site.

A lot fewer people had weapons back then, and they weren't military style.

The obsession with "assault weapons" on both sides of the gun debate is an indicator of the change in the psychological drives for weapon ownership.

 streamdragon wrote:


Did you actually read the OP instead of just the thread title? The entire article posted tries to link the killing to video games (GTA IV in particular). We are discussing the article presented, you should try it.

Duh. Maybe you should try reading the article and reflect on how sketchy the info about violent video games is in that article, as is the case with Sandy Hook. Of course we know there's a well-funded lobby springs into action every time a kid shoots someone, to say it's really the fault of a video game and not the firearm. Yet we have violent video games in the UK, and not too many kids shoot their granny.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
A lot fewer people had weapons back then, and they weren't military style.

The obsession with "assault weapons" on both sides of the gun debate is an indicator of the change in the psychological drives for weapon ownership.

Does the cosmetic style of a firearm affect the lethality of the round it fires?

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:


Did you actually read the OP instead of just the thread title? The entire article posted tries to link the killing to video games (GTA IV in particular). We are discussing the article presented, you should try it.

Duh. Maybe you should try reading the article and reflect on how sketchy the info about violent video games is in that article, as is the case with Sandy Hook. Of course we know there's a well-funded lobby springs into action every time a kid shoots someone, to say it's really the fault of a video game and not the firearm. Yet we have violent video games in the UK, and not too many kids shoot their granny.

We do, however, have random shootings pretty much every week or so. Gun crime, whilst less of a problem here, still isn't solved by illegalising weapons.

You're trying to shift the blame onto the prevalence of the weapons themselves, rather than where it rightly belongs, for example with the mental state of the shooter, the upbringing of the shooter, the carelessness of the owner etc.

Illegalising guns in America would solve a lot of the cases of accidental shootings, but it would be only cutting the head off the hydra; the potential owners would still be careless, people would still be mentally ill, it would not cut at the heart of issue whatsoever. If the heart of the issue is tackled instead, then there shouldn't be a need to illegalise guns - accidental shootings would fall by themselves. Purposeful or gang violence would be likely unaffected either way, since it's doubtful they'd abide by the law anyway, so illegalising guns wouldn't stop them.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
A lot fewer people had weapons back then, and they weren't military style.

The obsession with "assault weapons" on both sides of the gun debate is an indicator of the change in the psychological drives for weapon ownership.

The furniture is irrelevant. A shotgun is a shotgun.
it doesn't explain why our future Dahmer here did what he did.