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Personally I remember back in 3rd ed, the balance was a lot better. Far more meelee centric for sure, but you would see shooty armies and assault armies win big games. And that worked for the marines because they were the jacks of all trades. You could build your list for a tourney to be versatile enough to shoot the choppy, and chop the shooty. But this edition gunlines are unquestionably the superior builds. Unless tyranids and orks get some special rules that turns the meta on its side so that you HAVE to plan for them to be there in force with good builds, its not going to change. And the new space marine dex is decent, but still has giant holes that they don't have answers for. Helldrakes, the new anti air tanks are underwhelming and would be the first targets by any chaos list with more than a drake in it. Monstrous creatures like the riptide, they try to answer with the grav gun, but its range even on a slow and purposeful model is underwhelming at 24 inches for the cannon, and 18 for the gun itself. And 80 points for a centurion with that upgrade is a hefty amount of points. I wouldn't want to build 2 leaders with storm shields just to escort them across the maps because they are so vulnerable to the things that still kill marines in droves.

Have you gone over the new rules and seen any glimmer of hope for a competitive build outside of every marine player playing white scars or raven guard? How would a vanilla marine player compete.

Please don't respond if your answer is "we don't have enough knowledge about the new dex to even try and make a list" they have given almost everything away, from the points cost reductions and increases to units, to special character rules, to new gear/units. Reading the space marine rumor thread alone would get you all the info you would need. Which is why I started this thread. Outside of maybe a few builds, I cant see a winner in there, but that's why I am asking others with fresh opinions and ideas to theory hammer what and why they think certain builds will work.

TLDR we theory hammer what would put a marine army in contention in todays tournaments.

White Scars and Raven Guard are Vanilla marines....So confused.

But yes, the new book is going to be competitive in many ways. And I can see using all CT's as to me they are all viable depending on what you want to do.

I remember 3rd ed, too, but not the balance being better

I agree that Marines were more powerful in that edition... We'll see if the new codex changes that for Marines in 6th, though

And yes, I realize chaos suffers from the "you run this build or you don't try tournaments" problem too. But I was hopeing gw had given that some thought, and at least tried to compensate with the new books coming out.

Orock wrote:
Personally I remember back in 3rd ed, the balance was a lot better.

Let me go ahead and stop you right there. Did you play Blood Angels?

We don't have enough knowledge about the new dex to even try and make a list

amidoingitright?

With helldrakes around people should still be riding in metal bawxs or bigger metal bawxs.

 Hulksmash wrote:
White Scars and Raven Guard are Vanilla marines....So confused.

But yes, the new book is going to be competitive in many ways. And I can see using all CT's as to me they are all viable depending on what you want to do.

I guess you could say they are vanilla, since someone could make an army and say its a counts as white scars or raven guard, which I feel got the strongest chapter buffs. But how would say an ultra marine or imperial fists army build. Their heavy support is too fragile, tanks are easier to deal with now thanks to hull points putting a clock on something that might have been glanced 10 times before it died (not that that was better mind you) and there are armies out there with just plain superior rules, such as necron power builds or tau gunlines, or even elder mech spam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

Orock wrote:
Personally I remember back in 3rd ed, the balance was a lot better.

Let me go ahead and stop you right there. Did you play Blood Angels?

no...orks. Which admittedly was sometimes worse with hidden fists, or 25 inch trukk movement, unload and assault. And yet my 2nd army back then was dark elder, and could shoot the most competitive armies off the board too. It wasent ALLLL about chaos 3.5 and their I7 A8 demon prince leaders.

I think Codex: Space Marines is going to need a new cutey-wooty name other than Vanilla.

 pretre wrote:
I think Codex: Space Marines is going to need a new cutey-wooty name other than Vanilla.

How about codex:power armor that rarely grants you a save.

Orock wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I think Codex: Space Marines is going to need a new cutey-wooty name other than Vanilla.

How about codex:power armor that rarely grants you a save.

2/10. Doesn't really roll off the tongue and isn't very catchy.

I was thinking Codex marines would probably be a better fit than Vanilla.

Drop Pod units, Whirlwinds, Thunderfires, Scouts in Storms, Storm Talons, Devastator Centurions, Tigrius, Pedro, Sternguard, Ironclad (if it's still 13/13/10), the new 8 shot anti-flyer tank, the ability to ally with itself.....

The list is pretty long and that's not including allying outside of the book. And Necron and Tau aren't superior rule sets.

Overall if the stuff released by 40k Radio is solid then the book is going to be solid. If not we'll have to wait and see but I have a couple of lists in my head based that are pure SM lists (granted with SM allies).

 pretre wrote:
I think Codex: Space Marines is going to need a new cutey-wooty name other than Vanilla.

Yeah, that's a great point. Vanilla doesn't fit anymore with all the flavors that the main 'dex offers.

Codex 31 Flavors? (See what I did there!)

I do, and I like it

 Hulksmash wrote:
Drop Pod units, Whirlwinds, Thunderfires, Scouts in Storms, Storm Talons, Devastator Centurions, Tigrius, Pedro, Sternguard, Ironclad (if it's still 13/13/10), the new 8 shot anti-flyer tank, the ability to ally with itself.....

The list is pretty long and that's not including allying outside of the book. And Necron and Tau aren't superior rule sets.

Overall if the stuff released by 40k Radio is solid then the book is going to be solid. If not we'll have to wait and see but I have a couple of lists in my head based that are pure SM lists (granted with SM allies).

I also think dev centurions are going to be good, even if they are more fragile than av 13 tanks. Mabye I am not seeing the advantages of the whole list because Im still stuck in the pre allies days where an army should be self sufficient. Imperial fista and crimson fists together I can see. Do thunderfire cannons grant toughness 7 to the user too? I guess hellturkeys wouldn't eat those too badly. I don't agree on the ironclad though, or the land speeder storms. Too many points for those when you can stick sniper scouts in cover for free. And with the hull system I have yet to see an ironclad make it to round 3, or meelee once since I started 6th. Even drop podding as close as possible. Grenades being thrown in meelee also kinda messes with them. When my tau would rather get in close combat with a dread then 10 marines, its sad. Haywire really screws them up.

Wait a few months after the codex gets released and then make this post.

I hate how before every codex gets released there are a ton of whiners that complain about it witout knowing all of the combinations that can be made, or how it works in the meta.

Every codex!

 Blackmoor wrote:
Wait a few months after the codex gets released and then make this post.

I hate how before every codex gets released there are a ton of whiners that complain about it witout knowing all of the combinations that can be made, or how it works in the meta.

Every codex!

Remember how Tyranids were going to destroy everything and change the game as we know it? Ahh, good times.

Orock wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Drop Pod units, Whirlwinds, Thunderfires, Scouts in Storms, Storm Talons, Devastator Centurions, Tigrius, Pedro, Sternguard, Ironclad (if it's still 13/13/10), the new 8 shot anti-flyer tank, the ability to ally with itself.....

The list is pretty long and that's not including allying outside of the book. And Necron and Tau aren't superior rule sets.

Overall if the stuff released by 40k Radio is solid then the book is going to be solid. If not we'll have to wait and see but I have a couple of lists in my head based that are pure SM lists (granted with SM allies).

I also think dev centurions are going to be good, even if they are more fragile than av 13 tanks. Mabye I am not seeing the advantages of the whole list because Im still stuck in the pre allies days where an army should be self sufficient. Imperial fista and crimson fists together I can see. Do thunderfire cannons grant toughness 7 to the user too? I guess hellturkeys wouldn't eat those too badly. I don't agree on the ironclad though, or the land speeder storms. Too many points for those when you can stick sniper scouts in cover for free. And with the hull system I have yet to see an ironclad make it to round 3, or meelee once since I started 6th. Even drop podding as close as possible. Grenades being thrown in meelee also kinda messes with them. When my tau would rather get in close combat with a dread then 10 marines, its sad. Haywire really screws them up.

We're apprarently playing an entirely different game No worries.

@Blackmoor

We're in the it's not going to be strong enough phase that comes everytime just before the codex release. Just relax and enjoy the ride

Grenades vs AV13. Hmmm...

the only thing that would handicap space marines in tourney, is the list and the guy running it.

New marines with new point cost and self ally is 90 marines at under 1500 points. Yes there's no upgrades, but find me a list that can deal with 18 units (combat squad) and 90 3+ saves, use the rmaining points for your goodies.

Tac Marine spam will be nice.

optimusprime14 wrote:
New marines with new point cost and self ally is 90 marines at under 1500 points. Yes there's no upgrades, but find me a list that can deal with 18 units (combat squad) and 90 3+ saves, use the rmaining points for your goodies.

Tac Marine spam will be nice.

ork boyz in battlewagons spam list

Deamons with 3 20man units of fast attacks + 2-3 DP's

New eldar with that stupid wave serpeant spam

Dark angels, banner of devastation LR/bikes list

3 helldrake list if they all make it on turn 2

Im not saying hands down any of these will win or lose. Just answering your call of who could deal with it. I do admit, 90 marines or even 60-70 with some toys/tricks would be awesome to see/run.

90 Marines... yay more armies of plastic and primer

The best players choose to use different codexes. I think recently "D Kid" had success with a Khan list. Its all about the players and has little to do with the codex, that's just an excuse people use when they lose.

Orock wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I think Codex: Space Marines is going to need a new cutey-wooty name other than Vanilla.

How about codex:power armor that almost always grants you a save.

Fixed that for you. AP 2 and 3 are still not the majority of guns in the game. Try playing orks if you want almost every shot at you to bypass your armour

But let's not deny SM the right to whinge that other folk can ignore their armour sometimes

 RiTides wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I think Codex: Space Marines is going to need a new cutey-wooty name other than Vanilla.

Yeah, that's a great point. Vanilla doesn't fit anymore with all the flavors that the main 'dex offers.

Codex: Neapolitan. Vanilla, Chocolate or Strawberry, but all in the same package.

 pretre wrote:
I think Codex: Space Marines is going to need a new cutey-wooty name other than Vanilla.

Check my sig.

 pretre wrote:
I think Codex: Space Marines is going to need a new cutey-wooty name other than Vanilla.

How about Codex: Black Templars and friends?

Orock wrote:
Monstrous creatures like the riptide, they try to answer with the grav gun, but its range even on a slow and purposeful model is underwhelming at 24 inches for the cannon, and 18 for the gun itself.

I'll take "Deep Striking Dedicated Transports" for 500, Alex. Drop Pod Sternguard with combi-gravs are going to remove Riptides like silly.

LOL 3rd edition being more balanced. Funhouse Mirror formations, Unshootable wraithlords, 180 cultists, 60-man ork HQ and no requirement to take anything but 2 min troops.

I don't think Marines are bad... I think the chapter specific marine codexes are 'better' so since it is so easy to hop to Space wolves, Chaos or Blood Angels with minimum model changes, you don't see people trying to 'make a go' of their core codex like orks, tyranids and Dark Eldar players whose models serve one purpose for one codex.

I mean why would I take a Marine codex with Devastators when I can take space wolves with longfangs with the exact same models and better rules? Doesn't mean marines are 'bad' just it is too easy to use the exact same models with better rules. If I could easily use longfangs instead of tankbustaz with the same models, then I probably would and just codex hop too. But it would take a lot of proxying, converting and grumbly opponents for me to do it as an ork player but nothing for a everymarine player to do it.

I have seen plenty of people make a good force and play well with vanilla marines, sure they may not be the statistically superior codex, but they are by no means a non-starter.

New Codex. Everything changes.