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In a tournament: No.

In a friendly. I completely, from the bottom of my heart couldn't care less if you go over 15-20 points.

Hell, I once played a game at 1500 points against a Dark Eldar player and it took me to turn three until I realised he had four Cronos' and no HQ. I was having too much fun by that point to care. Probably should have checked his list, though.

Honestly if you're only 3 points above, I would just lie. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest, though once you get above 10 points you're starting to take the piss a bit.

...
Yeah, that's the adult thing to do. Just lie about it. Nothing will go wrong there.

If it's only 3 points then it's a)a very small matter and b)you can easily just say you miss-counted. Do you think you're going to be booted from a tournament for being 3 points out of 1500 over if you say it's a genuine error?

Turn it on its head, would you kick someone out of a tournament who miss-calculated the point value of their army by 3 points?

xruslanx wrote:
Turn it on its head, would you kick someone out of a tournament who miss-calculated the point value of their army by 3 points?

Yes.

xruslanx wrote:
If it's only 3 points then it's a)a very small matter and b)you can easily just say you miss-counted. Do you think you're going to be booted from a tournament for being 3 points out of 1500 over if you say it's a genuine error?

Yes. Also, that doesn't mean lying is okay.

Turn it on its head, would you kick someone out of a tournament who miss-calculated the point value of their army by 3 points?

In a heartbeat.

I can't think of any tournament that wouldn't disqualify someone for being 3 points over.

Here is the thing... I can add lots of upgrades to my list make sure I am "over" and then when I see my opponent I can say " oh I am over, let me drop a piece of gear" and then drop the gear which will be least useful that game.

So game1 I drop an ammo runt, game 2 I drop cybork armor, game 3 I drop a boss pole. Those 3 points over have now becomes much larger advantage than those simple 3 points as being over has now allowed me to have a dynamic advantage.

You don't go over the limit. Every tourney will disqualify you if your list is illegal, as they should. If you knowingly lie about it, you are a bad sport and probably a selfish rude person if you feel the need to break the rules and harm others to get ahead, especially in something like recreational games.

I'm a pretty casual gamer and won't really care if my opponent is a few points over but...

When an opponent tells me he's a little over on points that translates in my mind to:
'I'm automatically disqualified and forfeit the game before we start but can we play it out anyway?'

Never ever broken the points limit in a game. although in some of my earlier ones all my ten man tac squads were counted as 180 instead of 170 and a shvitzload of other overcost errors were made by me (ie, 25 point artificer armour) so i was almost always 60 points UNDER the limit. I advise never ever taking an extra point or two or ten for that matter. It can make a bigger difference than you'd think, and no TO would think twice about giving you the bums rush.

 Peregrine wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Which is more fair? 1 point over, or 9 points under? Many armies end up with this problem.

9 points under, because that follows the rules of the game and is not cheating.

I said fair, not by the rules. Also note that in one of my previous posts I pointed out that the designers said a couple points over will not affect the outcome, but I bet a 9 point deficit can.

The difference in points is different. That 10 points could be an upgrade, or maybe someone plays with very little upgrades, and that is the difference in having a legal squad, or having to pick something that doesn't fit in their strategy. I would chance to say that in the fairness of a game 1 point over will have less impact than 9 points under.


There are many items in the game, that will push you over by just a little, make you handicap yourself by a wider margin than you would go over, or force a rewrite/into using a list you didn't want to use.

If everything was done in multiples of 5 it would make list building so much easier to make points, but than you end up with combined wargear and lose the customization everyone likes.

xruslanx wrote:
If it's only 3 points then it's a)a very small matter and b)you can easily just say you miss-counted. Do you think you're going to be booted from a tournament for being 3 points out of 1500 over if you say it's a genuine error?

Turn it on its head, would you kick someone out of a tournament who miss-calculated the point value of their army by 3 points?

I would if I found that they had lied about it.

Integrity matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I said fair, not by the rules.

When you're playing a game with set rules, they amount to the same thing. Breaking the rules is not fair to your opponent, unless they agree to allow it.

... and that is the difference in having a legal squad, or having to pick something that doesn't fit in their strategy.

And here you have stumbled upon the whole point of having that limit.

You have to build your army around what will fit into the agreed limit. If that means you have to slightly adjust your preferred strategy, well, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Effective list building is just one of the skills that makes a good player.

In the GK lists I'm currently using, my points are:
1999/2000, 1997/2000, 1999/2000, 1849/1850, 1749/1750, 1500/1500, 1248/1250, 998/1000

With Daemons, it's:
1997/2000, 2000/2000, 1850/1850, 1849/1850, 1750/1750, 1500/1500, 1250/1250, 1000/1000

The most-at-a-disadvantage I ever am is 3pts under, and I'm frequently 1pt under. I have built my lists (all of them) to meet the agreed-upon point limit. It's not that hard to do.
I HAVE had to make tough choices sometimes about what to keep in/take out. But there are enough 5pt upgrades in both my codices to take me pretty dang close to the line.

Again, it's not hard to keep yourself under/at the limit. Tweak and tweak and tweak until you're legal.
With that said, I won't begrudge someone 5pts. But no more than that! And I'll take to my opp after the game about why he needed the extra points, and what he can do to make space for it.

xruslanx wrote:
Turn it on its head, would you kick someone out of a tournament who miss-calculated the point value of their army by 3 points?

Yep. You have only yourself to blame if you don't spend the time to double-check your list before playing in a tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I said fair, not by the rules.

Yes, and both players obeying the same point limit is fair. One player getting extra points because they feel entitled to spend all of their limit and beyond it is not fair, it's cheating.

There are many items in the game, that will push you over by just a little, make you handicap yourself by a wider margin than you would go over, or force a rewrite/into using a list you didn't want to use.

Too bad. Part of list building is being able to make an effective list fit within the limit. You don't get to cheat just because it would improve your chances of winning if you do.

I played in a tournament once where you didn't get disqualified for being over, what did happen is that your opponent was awarded kill points equal to the amount you were over.
Essentially, if you were over points you were losing the game going in and unlikely to to claw it back.

That kept people in check...

 grendel083 wrote:
I can't think of any tournament that wouldn't disqualify someone for being 3 points over.

Funny thing about that... There was a major tourney that was won by a well known player whose list ended up being 3 points over not that long ago.... The nickname 3PO (3 points over ) still gets mentioned now and again. They didnt DQ him. Tony kopach is the player I believe.

Still, I don't condone going over an agreed upon points limit. /shrug

Being able to get as close to the points limit without going over is part of list building, which is in turn a part of the game. I make tough choices to ensure I never go over the points limit and I expect my opponents to do the same.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Being able to get as close to the points limit without going over is part of list building, which is in turn a part of the game. I make tough choices to ensure I never go over the points limit and I expect my opponents to do the same.

I do my best to remain under the limit as well, spending several days tweaking my list. I just don't believe that 1-2 points over is a big deal, and neither do the game designers.

As long as limits are being ignored, is it ok if I just take an extra special weapon in my squads? 40k is just a game, and just 1 or 2 extra isn't a big deal right?

At the end of the day, claiming that it's justified because it's just a friendly game is a cop out.

If your really spending 2 days tweaking a list and your still several points over, your trying to fit too much in the list.

Half the time I build my list at the store, because i do not know who I will be playing and different people play at different points. Once in a while I (or my opponent) will be a few points over and neither will care as we just want to get a game in.

The other half it is a in-store tournament where I build my list in advance since the points are set and I have time to adjust things as necessary.

For most people I have played under 5 pts over on a 1500pt list is not an issue, but in general its worth it to know that there aren't any issues with your list that might clout a win for you.

For Tournaments its normally a hard limit, BUT I have seen 1 where it was phrased as 1999pts, allowed to go 1 pt over as a way to keep armies to a single force org in 2k pts. Granted they could have said single force org only, but thats what they decided to consider it. Its the only time I have seen a tournament allow pts over....

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
The point limit you've agreed with your opponent is the UPPER limit of what you can spend on your army. You shouldn't go above it, even by 1 point.
In friendly games we just stick to that, and to my limited knowledge it's a no-no in tournaments too

He has it exactly right, in a tournament setting, you cannot exceed this list. The way they are run here is if you are over you are dropped from prizes ect.

The one time I've been ok with it is when "I'm trying out ___" with people...each of us is testing stuff that will eventually become a 2k (or whatever limit) list, but the fat hasn't been trimmed yet. Usually those are quick and dirty calculations, and I'm ok with being us both being over. However, in a tournament, or really any game where you know ahead of time what you'll be playing you should never be over. Ever.

Maybe I'm taking it too seriously, but my job requires me to show up fully prepared for work and the task to be accomplished that day. It's efficient, but more importantly shows respect for the people I work with. I take the same approach to the game; you should at least have a plan when you show up to the store. Maybe you wing some stuff and improvise once you're there, but you were prepared with an appropriate list when you left your house.

The limit is the limit once it is agreed upon. But usually we make a list what we want and land on an odd number then we try to balance the points. But once points are set they are set. Myself wouldn't mind if the opponent went <6 points above if they asked.
But I can agree to uneven games but then I want to know so ahead.

Limits of 40k armies are upper limits. They are calculated with rules and agreed upon between players. After the limit is agreed on, it is fair that all the players agree on it.

It usually takes me five to ten minutes to calculate my amry cost.. It's plain arithmetics, after all.

Also there are plenty of aiding tools to do the maths (cellphones have calculators, battlescribe for ios and android and so on).. I adhere to the absolute upper limit, else I propose an alternative limit.. But if you decide a limit, you have fairly decided it, so why trespass it?

I don't need to make up an army list on the fly, for each of my armies I've got a folder of army lists at different points values and for different themes stashed in the case with the codex and the rest of my gaming paraphernalia.

In my area, for friendly games we let up to 1% over the limit, rounding down (i.e. 500p game, max 505. 750p, max 757). As we're all fairly new players, that margin let us work around the situation already cited - '9 under or 1 above?'

Generally, we try to stay inside the limit, but sometimes we go up. Anyway, both sides know it.

I concur that in tourneys the limit should be the limit.

I'm on the side of a points limit is a points limit, I'll possibly let a little slide if I'm really generous, and you give me a free-roll or something like that. Or if you let me know prior to the game, and we up the points by at least 50.

Interesting point to this argument, in the current White Dwarf, the battle report between Black Templars and Chaos Space Marines has about a 100pt difference between sides.

In a tournament, the event has been organised and scheduled to the points limit, everyone has to stick to that limit. Which is also why TO's should check lists before hand.

If the person I'm playing says "I'm over by 3 points" or something, then to be honest I don't really mind, because it's just a game, and I'd rather get on with playing instead of him dithering about what to drop.

Here is my usual copy-paste answer regarding this subject



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I'll allow a zero point breach of the maximum allowed.

5 points is the difference between a Mortar and an Autocannon. It makes a hell of a lot of difference to the Rhino heading towards you.

3 points allows for a Singing Spear upgrade. Make a lot of difference to the Land Raider nearby. Plus I get to hear about how his Warlock killed my Land Raider forever.

1 point is a Searchlight. The Searchlight that just lit up my Stormraven, allowing the rest of his army to shoot at it.

Saying; "It's just 1 point. It doesn't make a lot of difference" is a huge fallacy. That 1 point might also be part of a larger chunk of points that makes it possible to field that extra Hive Guard, Terminator, Meltagun or whatever.

Saying; "Just add a Melta Bomb to one of our Sergeants and we are even" is a fallacy. Said squad might not have been taken to move aggresively forwards....making the upgrade utterly pointless. Hell, it might even induce me to stray from the basic tenents of my battleplan, which I had in mind when I made the armylist. Maybe I even considered giving him a Melta Bomb but discarded the idea because it was a useless waste of points.....and now I add it again to compensate for your unwillingness to follow the rules?

If 5 points is no big deal, then remove them. They are "no big deal", remember?

Thank you for putting me in a situation where I, by saying "no", is denying you your "right to have fun". I am not really given a choice. You broke the rules/agreement and suddenly I'M the TFG?!?

We have to set the limit somewhere....and that might as well be at the limit agreed upon beforehand.


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