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 Ouze wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I would replace them with machines and one to two guys in back to repair the machines and load fresh burger patties. We have the tech for this. It was called an automat or something like that back in the day.

Labor is one of the largest expenses in any possible endeavour I can do better by my stockholders and my staff teams by reducing it significantly.

Have you used the self-checkouts at the supermarket? I have tried them and I've found they absolutely do not perform a better job than a human as a whole - someone always screwed it up and needs a clerk to come fix whatever they did; and that's a fairly close parallel, I think. I agree this is eventually where we'll be but I don't think we're there yet.

As I understand it, most of Europe's McDonald's already made that change to automated tellers.

 djones520 wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
Wow, most of the Correctional Officers I know get paid a lot more than $15 an hour. Sounds like St. Louis may be stingy with greenbacks.

Starting pay in Michigan is $16 an hour. Illinois seems to a be a good bit heftier at $20 an hour. Seems to just vary by state.

The last one I saw was $24 an hour. Things might have changed I suppose, though not for the better it would seem. Most of the guys I know that were COs were in that range, or at least pretty darn close to $19. It could be that the $16 is probationary, and if you get hired on full time it gets a bump.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
If I was in charge of McDonalds, and the big McD's was a corporate empire instead of a large chain of franchises, I would have fired the ENTIRE human staff by now. I would replace them with machines and one to two guys in back to repair the machines and load fresh burger patties. We have the tech for this. It was called an automat or something like that back in the day.

Labor is one of the largest expenses in any possible endeavour I can do better by my stockholders and my staff teams by reducing it significantly.

What happened when I go in to complain about my order and how it was wrong? What is the machine decided to sprout LAzers or something.

 whembly wrote:
Also, for the record, a $15 an hour wage is more than local EMT workers, substitute teachers and correctional officers make in St. Louis, MO.

So, say burger flippers get $15 increase (or any significant increase)... about about them?

Then I guess that would mean that the free market finds burger flippers more valuable than EMTs, teachers, and correctional officers. Well, that or burger flippers as a whole are better at using the free market to maximize their personal gain.

I went to Mcdonalds a little while ago, and got 11 mcnuggets in my 10 piece.

I now think at least one person there deserves a raise.

 Ahtman wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
Wow, most of the Correctional Officers I know get paid a lot more than $15 an hour. Sounds like St. Louis may be stingy with greenbacks.

Starting pay in Michigan is $16 an hour. Illinois seems to a be a good bit heftier at $20 an hour. Seems to just vary by state.

The last one I saw was $24 an hour. Things might have changed I suppose, though not for the better it would seem. Most of the guys I know that were COs were in that range, or at least pretty darn close to $19. It could be that the $16 is probationary, and if you get hired on full time it gets a bump.

According to the Michigan state website the pay scaled from $16 up to $24. I'd almost be interested in the job, but I think I'd want a bit more then $16 an hour starting out to deal with a daily risk of getting shivved.

Think of all the confiscated terlit sangria!

 Ouze wrote:
I went to Mcdonalds a little while ago, and got 11 mcnuggets in my 10 piece.

I now think at least one person there deserves a raise.

to bad their slip-up in giving you extra means they probably got shoved into a fryer

 whembly wrote:
Also, for the record, a $15 an hour wage is more than local EMT workers, substitute teachers and correctional officers make in St. Louis, MO.

So, say burger flippers get $15 increase (or any significant increase)... about about them?

In the UK substitute teachers are often paid more on the hour than regular teachers, because they're in demand and it makes up for the sporadic working hours. But everything I've heard about the teaching profession in the US generally is that they are treated like rubbish on poor wages. It simply not a valued profession.

Surely the wages will vary on a state by state basis?

I hope they manage to get a raise. I have nothing but good experiences with fast food "burger flipping" places. The staff are polite enough and you get what you pay for. If McDonals/(insert fast food chain here) are making substantial profits they can probably afford to pass the good stuff down to the guys that generate those profits.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Surely the wages will vary on a state by state basis?

I hope they manage to get a raise. I have nothing but good experiences with fast food "burger flipping" places. The staff are polite enough and you get what you pay for. If McDonals/(insert fast food chain here) are making substantial profits they can probably afford to pass the good stuff down to the guys that generate those profits.

I haven't been to a "good" McDonalds since I left Japan. There are very few fast food joints I enter where I feel like i'm a valued customer.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Also, for the record, a $15 an hour wage is more than local EMT workers, substitute teachers and correctional officers make in St. Louis, MO.

So, say burger flippers get $15 increase (or any significant increase)... about about them?

In the UK substitute teachers are often paid more on the hour than regular teachers, because they're in demand and it makes up for the sporadic working hours. But everything I've heard about the teaching profession in the US generally is that they are treated like rubbish on poor wages. It simply not a valued profession.

Substitutes are basically glorified babysitters here in the states, which sucks because most of those people have teaching degrees and can teach the content. When I was doing my student teaching we had a sub a few days, and the instructions were basically, "Alf knows what to do, he can run the class, if he has any problems, please do x, y, or z" and that was basically it.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Also, for the record, a $15 an hour wage is more than local EMT workers, substitute teachers and correctional officers make in St. Louis, MO.

So, say burger flippers get $15 increase (or any significant increase)... about about them?

In the UK substitute teachers are often paid more on the hour than regular teachers, because they're in demand and it makes up for the sporadic working hours. But everything I've heard about the teaching profession in the US generally is that they are treated like rubbish on poor wages. It simply not a valued profession.

Substitutes are basically glorified babysitters here in the states, which sucks because most of those people have teaching degrees and can teach the content. When I was doing my student teaching we had a sub a few days, and the instructions were basically, "Alf knows what to do, he can run the class, if he has any problems, please do x, y, or z" and that was basically it.

Doing my student teaching while I was certified as a sub in the school too, I didn't have to have a sub as well, as I counted as one-so those days I got paid to student teach! I did check in with my college adviser and it was allowed (doesn't happen very often). Another day though, I was called to sub in a different class that had a student teacher, and I just had to sit in the back and read comic books all day-didn't have to do anything. Which is the norm for subs when student teachers are there too. And it is often the case that subs are glorified babysitters, but if you've built a rapport with the teacher in question and they know you know the material, they can/might have you teach the course. I've taught many a math and English class when the kids thought they'd have a study hall instead. Oops
Big danger of being a sub in the US is that if you're a good enough sub (cause no problems, kids like you, teachers like you, dependable, etc), they won't hire you on as a full teacher because they'd lose one of their better subs. I wish I was just being cynical about that, but it was something I was warned about by a few teachers, and then it happened. I walked out with a smile and a wave when I got a better job.
TLDR: sub jobs in the US are a joke most of the time, but being a good sub can keep you from getting a teaching job.

What do you do for long term supply? For illness or maternity? You can't baby sit for a term, you need someone who will fill the teaching post properly.

 Ouze wrote:
Have you used the self-checkouts at the supermarket? I have tried them and I've found they absolutely do not perform a better job than a human as a whole - someone always screwed it up and needs a clerk to come fix whatever they did; and that's a fairly close parallel, I think. I agree this is eventually where we'll be but I don't think we're there yet.

I use them pretty regularly with few problems. Those few problems that do arise are solved by a staff member that oversees at least a dozen terminals, and doesn't require my waiting on a manager to resolve my issue.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Also, for the record, a $15 an hour wage is more than local EMT workers, substitute teachers and correctional officers make in St. Louis, MO.

So, say burger flippers get $15 increase (or any significant increase)... about about them?

In the UK substitute teachers are often paid more on the hour than regular teachers, because they're in demand and it makes up for the sporadic working hours. But everything I've heard about the teaching profession in the US generally is that they are treated like rubbish on poor wages. It simply not a valued profession.

Substitutes are basically glorified babysitters here in the states, which sucks because most of those people have teaching degrees and can teach the content. When I was doing my student teaching we had a sub a few days, and the instructions were basically, "Alf knows what to do, he can run the class, if he has any problems, please do x, y, or z" and that was basically it.

Doing my student teaching while I was certified as a sub in the school too, I didn't have to have a sub as well, as I counted as one-so those days I got paid to student teach! I did check in with my college adviser and it was allowed (doesn't happen very often). Another day though, I was called to sub in a different class that had a student teacher, and I just had to sit in the back and read comic books all day-didn't have to do anything. Which is the norm for subs when student teachers are there too. And it is often the case that subs are glorified babysitters, but if you've built a rapport with the teacher in question and they know you know the material, they can/might have you teach the course. I've taught many a math and English class when the kids thought they'd have a study hall instead. Oops
Big danger of being a sub in the US is that if you're a good enough sub (cause no problems, kids like you, teachers like you, dependable, etc), they won't hire you on as a full teacher because they'd lose one of their better subs. I wish I was just being cynical about that, but it was something I was warned about by a few teachers, and then it happened. I walked out with a smile and a wave when I got a better job.
TLDR: sub jobs in the US are a joke most of the time, but being a good sub can keep you from getting a teaching job.

Same thing here. I've been subbing for four years, and only get special ed short term contracts because no one wants them. There are 180 people ahead of me, in my field alone. And they cut back on 70 teachers board-wide. The previous government kept spouting "We desperately need more teachers" without adding the "in the far north" part. And since most boomers were supposed to retire starting in 2005, the field was supposed to be pretty dynamic, but no one is retiring. They have the best jobs at a pretty decent pay (73K before deductions, about 30K net), the retirement funds were bled dry a some years ago so they hold on to their wages. I can somewhat understand them, but it doesn't make it any easier for me. Now I had to buy a car to go up to 90 minutes away in some cases for the opportunity of a job. (I can't move, my girlfriend bought a business and we're signed into a 5 years commercial rent)

Now if I compare to working for Ultramar (an oil company) where wages were much higher, and I only had a high school diploma at the time, not my current B.Ed, I'm uneasy even stepping into a fast food. Most people would spend their time online, chatting away (I called it playing bus stop) and hoping the lower rungs would do the job they couldn't anymore. Because most of the employees also only had high school diplomas, and couldn't speak English to boot. Embarassing when you're owned by a Texan company, to say the least. My department's boss was a Michael-Scott-lite. At least the fast food worker, you know, works. This is all very anecdotal, so I am absolutely not passing judgement on your experiences or your perceptions. Just throwing in my 2¢. Which have been discontinued, incidentally.

That was precisely my experiment with subbing after I got laid off. I was almost exclusively in English, History, or communications classes that I could teach the content in (even AP classes) and was having a lot of trouble getting the time of day for new positions. The teachers liked having a sub that the kids respected and knew the content so they could take days without actually "losing" them.

Coupled with the fact that the retirement requirements in Ohio changed drastically, and no one is leaving the profession that previously could have retired (basically for full retirement it went from 30 years to 35 years, leaving teachers that were at 31/32 years hanging on for another 2-4 when they didn't actually want to). And the teachers unions let this happen, which is the crappiest part. They sadly, IMO, do very little to help young teachers but rather focus on their older, entrenched constituency. But that's another matter.

That's why I'm no longer teaching.

Back on topic. I still have a problem with this "living wage" crap. A fast food job isn't intended to support a family unless perhaps you're in management. It especially isn't intended to support irresponsible people making irresponsible choices like building tons of debt or having tons of kids. It's real hard for me to feel bad for them at all.

And fwiw, when I got laid off from my teaching job due to levy failure, I got a 2nd job (in addition to subbing) within 10 days and cancelled our cable (cutting some $70 a month in expense) because I didn't need it to live. And oh yeah, because I got that second job, I didn't qualify for any income based payments on my student loans. So I've been there, done that, and don't feel an ounce of pity or support for these over entitled mouth breathers.

At least if McDonalds paid their workers 15 dollars an hour the country would start to get healthier, as no one would want to eat 8 dollar quarter pounders for lunch.

It's horrible when people don't realize that minimum wage hikes drives up the cost of living, soon making said minimum wage hike irrelevant.

But that's the thing. Unless you still want to pay shareholders the same amount of profit, which admittedly that is what the standard model calls for, then yes, the burger has to go up.

But if you accept that you're still making insane amounts of money, not just as much, then the burger can remain at the same price.

 pities2004 wrote:
It's really a joke, they want to get paid more without having to work for it. I joined the military, went to school got a career and I make 20ish an hour, if a lowly McDonalds worker can make 15 dollars an hour with no education or life skills then I will be truly disappointed.

I do not think you realize that $15 an hour is about 28K a year.

Not horrible for a single person, but for a dad that works and the wife stays home to watch the 2 kids that is only 5k a year above the poverty line in the U.S.A. and if they have 3 kids they are only a few hundred dollars a year above the poverty line in the U.S.A. worse if they live in Alaska or Hawaii

http://www.familiesusa.org/resources/tools-for-advocates/guides/federal-poverty-guidelines.html

Well, don't try to support a family of 4-5 on a McDonalds salary then.

If its the only thing available, tough luck man. Get some real skills or wait, if you have skills, till the economy improves and you can get a job that pays what can support your family. Which ever is applicable.

There is wiggle room for what a burger flipper can get paid, but $15/hour is not in that zone.

I have never heard of someone trying t support a family as a Mcdonalds employee. Granted that is my experiance. but over here most of college students or immigrants.

 Frazzled wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I'm all for a living minimum wage. Best of luck to the fast food workers striking at the fat clogged heart of America.

I agree. I fully support their right to strike for a living wage. If you heartless capitalist swine don't see their plight then too bad for you. Workers of the World Unite!

I completely agree. I'm actually really happy to see this. Everyone deserves a fair, living wage. Human dignity is worth more than capital profit. No one should thumb their nose at a cleaner, food handler, porter, etc. etc. That's ingrained elitism.

I also support the current organization of the child care industry into unions as well - good on 'em.

If this means the burger at wendies i get goes from 1.20 (jr. bacon cheeseburger), to 4-5 bucks - fine. I get healthier, other people get to make a living wage, poverty gets lower (and thereby crime), education, and quality of life, and basic human dignity all increase, urban blight decreases.

Don't believe me ? Take a good hard and do some studying of Sweden as an economic and political model.


Btw, Frazzled, I love that you used the Wobblies slogan.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
At least if McDonalds paid their workers 15 dollars an hour the country would start to get healthier, as no one would want to eat 8 dollar quarter pounders for lunch.

It's horrible when people don't realize that minimum wage hikes drives up the cost of living, soon making said minimum wage hike irrelevant.

It's not like many other countries support a much higher minimum wage than the US. How do we manage it? America has some of the poorest laws governing workers rights to job security, pay and sick/maternity leave in the west. The way you carry on, things like ending the power for employers to sack people at any time without cause, mandatory maternity leave/pay and a higher minimum wage would make your country fall in. Most decent countries achieve these things, it's not impossible to make these changes.

 Haight wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I'm all for a living minimum wage. Best of luck to the fast food workers striking at the fat clogged heart of America.

I agree. I fully support their right to strike for a living wage. If you heartless capitalist swine don't see their plight then too bad for you. Workers of the World Unite!

I completely agree. I'm actually really happy to see this. Everyone deserves a fair, living wage. Human dignity is worth more than capital profit. No one should thumb their nose at a cleaner, food handler, porter, etc. etc. That's ingrained elitism.

I also support the current organization of the child care industry into unions as well - good on 'em.

If this means the burger at wendies i get goes from 1.20 (jr. bacon cheeseburger), to 4-5 bucks - fine. I get healthier, other people get to make a living wage, poverty gets lower (and thereby crime), education, and quality of life, and basic human dignity all increase, urban blight decreases.

Don't believe me ? Take a good hard and do some studying of Sweden as an economic and political model.


Btw, Frazzled, I love that you used the Wobblies slogan.

You do realize that in your post you explain exactly why this won't work.

You'd stop buying the food. So would everyone else.

Then the business closes. Then the employees loose their job. Then they are worse off then they are now.

So how does that help?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I'd also like to make another point. Everyone does not deserve a fair, livable wage. Human dignity is not worth more then payroll profit.

Everyone is entitled the right to EARN a fair livable wage. Everyone is entitled the right to perserve their own human dignity.

No one has the right to demand it from others.

But no one's going to stop buying the food, really. Maybe buy less, but I don't think we'll all stop. Even I step into a McD once in a blue moon. (We have a lot of little cafés and bistros near our store)

It would undoubtedly lower the profits of the company. It might slow down Wall Street. Okay, it will slow down Wall Street. Is that such a bad thing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And look, I have to admit, I am an employer, and I can't afford to pay that much for a job that is going to require a lot more *discernement* than "flipping burgers." Hell, my fiancee and I have decided to cut down our own pay at our own store down under that 15$ line, to make sure we'll stay afloat until the economy goes back up.

I do wish I could pay our future employee more. If they'd apply at all...

We're too addicted to our greasy, fatty, salty foods to just give them up... Hell we spend our the wazoo on plastic, metal, and resin MAN DOLLIES, why wouldn't we bitch and complain about food going up and then still getting it

Exactly.

Though I do wish my self-imposed salary would allow more plastic men.

Actually... I take that back, I wish the products I wanted were out (Mecha Front, Dreamforge) but at the moment, I'm quite happy not having gaming money.

I call BS that you guys would pay $3.50 for a regular BK Cheeseburger, and $8 for a Whopper, before you add the fries and drink.

 djones520 wrote:

 Haight wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I'd also like to make another point. Everyone does not deserve a fair, livable wage. Human dignity is not worth more then payroll profit.

Wow, you are basically saying profit is more important then the workers. I disagree, Everyone is entitled to a living wage. the problem is our living wage in america is to hi