Warhammer 40k will obliterate your sense of fantasy

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**Deadshot**

Icculus wrote:
Gretchin are goblins. And goblins have been around for years.

In various forms yes, but the minion is identical to GW versions, right down to the green.

**Skriker**

En Excelsis wrote:
STAR WARS: (really only the crappy new ones).
OMG The first one was basically a Tau Drone army invasion. It's not a humorous as Halo because the correlation is not as slap you in the face obvious, but the links are there... the Jedi are the Inquisition, the whole Separatist/Loyalist war is analogous for the IoM. I'll be damned if General Greivous wasn't a Necron Lord with a Pariah retinue.

I don't agree with any of the Star Wars comparisons, but heck I don't have to if you feel that way and it works for you, more power to you...I'll give you the Halo comparables, especially the Eldar, because Halo was probably written by a team that probably had actual 40k players working on it.

Skriker

**chromedog**

Halo was written by gamers, certainly,

At least RPG players (I know a couple of them) and some might have been 40k players (not so certain).

40k has borrowed from SOOOOOO many sources over the years, that the lines between it and what was borrowed have blurred.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Star Wars is awful. Watching the prequels should have ruined Star Wars for you on its own, without outside assistance.

The prequels are so irredeemably awful, they ruined my childhood and my ability to appreciate the originals, just because, by association, I remember the prequels.

**liquidjoshi**

Going a little Off Topic, why exactly are the prequels seen as so bad? It's a complaint I've never really understood.

**En Excelsis**

solkan wrote:
My advice to the original poster would be to rush out and find a copy of Starship Troopers (the book, and I mean the original book, and not, heaven help you, the book based on the movie based on the book). Then read the other science fiction books of that era.

After you do that, then you'll have a proper understanding of "If we put a marine soldier in space, that makes him a space marine" and where it comes from. And if you're going to have problems caused by one work having too much similarity to other works that you were aware of before, you'll at least get the order right.

I am unsure why you would assume that I have not already read the book...

To clarify, I have read it and many other books of the genre. Dune is probably my favorite of the early classics and I frankly did not much care for Heinlein's material or composition. It wasn't bad, it just wasn't my preferred flavor. I found Dune to be a bit more reverent... Rember that in enlgish we have words for both "Older" and "Better" because they do in fact not mean the same thing. While the idea of "marines in space" may have been done first by Heilein (or for that matter some other more obscure author before him) it does not in fact give a higher standing in the genre. As a child my first drawing obviously predate my artistic work as an adult but calling it better would be foolish.

This is not to say that I think all older material is bad either. I have already stated that I like Dune...

**Davor**

En Excelsis wrote:
Davor wrote:
I don't know, after watching Ultramarine (I think it was called that) It makes the Star Wars Pre-quel master pieces.

I don't share the OP sentiments. I see 40K a blatant rip-off of everything, no originality at all. I have no problems with other Sci-Fi or Fantasy at all.

I find it funny the OP doesn't want to say that GW ripped off alot of stuff, but then he goes ahead and does the same thing. It's not a fair debate or discussion if it's only one sided.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You do know that Blizzard's Starcraft was suppose to be 40K right?

Wait.. huh? I don't want to say stuff but I do? ... only room enough in my head for one of us guy.

I have no pretenses about saying that certain franchises are rips of 40k. Hell I actually dislike Blizzard as a company for exactly that reason. They are basically thieves. I am quite certain that having an original thought would physically kill them.

As other posters have said, 40k borrows from many sources and many other stories borrow from it. That's not a bad thing as long as it's done respectfully. Being "inspired by" is different that being a bootleg copy. It's pretty common knowledge that Blizzard are thieves. they came to GW about making a WHF video game after having already coded it. Blizzard turned them down and they just renamed it the infinitely creative WarCraft. History follows. 40k was released and BAM! StarCraft!. While I will concede that WarCraft did eventually take off on it's own momentum years later, it was still a copy and legal infringement of IP law that simply didn't have the legal precedent is does now. That being said, it isn't shocking that StarCraft's release endangered Blizzard's franchise and they quickly "merged" with Activision so that under a unique legal bylaw their existing IP (including starcraft) would pass to new ownership - vesting it from GW, who was rightly furious.

It was actually brought up in my niece's Law School as an example.

Anyway...

You do know that Blizzard was to make 40K RTS for GW right? GW in their all mighty wisdom thought they could do a better job than Blizzard and basically told them to Frack off. So what would you do, after all that hard work making the program for them then told to "frak off we can do it better". Instead of wasting all their time and money on making the game for GW they made the game themselves.

I bet still to this day, GW is kicking them selves in the arse for not staying with Blizzard and making all that money.

Again, Blizzard didn't rip off GW, GW told them they don't want them to make 40K RTS, after Blizzard did all that work.

As for other shows/movies ripping off GW, or 40K, I don't see it. I see them either ripping off or in some cases paying homage to other IP, not 40K.

I am sure, if anyone was paying homage to 40K the GW lawyers would be there so fast to sue them.

**thetallestgiraffe**

I've never thought of the Spartans really like marines at all. I thought that Spartans didn't have power armour at all, I thought they used power shields over regular armour.

And aren't the covenant more the complete opposite of tau? They covenant is made of crazy religious zealots, more comparable to humans in a way, whereas tau are atheist. none of them really look similar either. And the eldar are based on elves anyway, as are many science fiction races, so they don't really count as a 40k or fantasy creation.

And I'm not sure that the links to star wars are that strong, and the comparisons there are more just "if there HAD to be an equivalent"s.

However I can see where you are coming from, science fiction stories, characters and races are all generally very samey, and a lot of writers and such probably did have other books, games, ect. when writing their own

**Madcat87**

Davor wrote:
En Excelsis wrote:
Davor wrote:
I don't know, after watching Ultramarine (I think it was called that) It makes the Star Wars Pre-quel master pieces.

I don't share the OP sentiments. I see 40K a blatant rip-off of everything, no originality at all. I have no problems with other Sci-Fi or Fantasy at all.

I find it funny the OP doesn't want to say that GW ripped off alot of stuff, but then he goes ahead and does the same thing. It's not a fair debate or discussion if it's only one sided.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You do know that Blizzard's Starcraft was suppose to be 40K right?

Wait.. huh? I don't want to say stuff but I do? ... only room enough in my head for one of us guy.

I have no pretenses about saying that certain franchises are rips of 40k. Hell I actually dislike Blizzard as a company for exactly that reason. They are basically thieves. I am quite certain that having an original thought would physically kill them.

As other posters have said, 40k borrows from many sources and many other stories borrow from it. That's not a bad thing as long as it's done respectfully. Being "inspired by" is different that being a bootleg copy. It's pretty common knowledge that Blizzard are thieves. they came to GW about making a WHF video game after having already coded it. Blizzard turned them down and they just renamed it the infinitely creative WarCraft. History follows. 40k was released and BAM! StarCraft!. While I will concede that WarCraft did eventually take off on it's own momentum years later, it was still a copy and legal infringement of IP law that simply didn't have the legal precedent is does now. That being said, it isn't shocking that StarCraft's release endangered Blizzard's franchise and they quickly "merged" with Activision so that under a unique legal bylaw their existing IP (including starcraft) would pass to new ownership - vesting it from GW, who was rightly furious.

It was actually brought up in my niece's Law School as an example.

Anyway...

You do know that Blizzard was to make 40K RTS for GW right? GW in their all mighty wisdom thought they could do a better job than Blizzard and basically told them to Frack off. So what would you do, after all that hard work making the program for them then told to "frak off we can do it better". Instead of wasting all their time and money on making the game for GW they made the game themselves.

I bet still to this day, GW is kicking them selves in the arse for not staying with Blizzard and making all that money.

Again, Blizzard didn't rip off GW, GW told them they don't want them to make 40K RTS, after Blizzard did all that work.

As for other shows/movies ripping off GW, or 40K, I don't see it. I see them either ripping off or in some cases paying homage to other IP, not 40K.

I am sure, if anyone was paying homage to 40K the GW lawyers would be there so fast to sue them.

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!

Can people stop this, there is no legal history between the two companies this story is so full of gak but people continuly spout it because they want to feel all high and mighty that their fantasy universe came first! There were no talks between the two companies, there was no legal battle, EVER!
I'm no big fan of Blizzard but I hate people spouting rumors as truth.

http://kotaku.com/5929161/how-warcraft-was-almost-a-warhammer-game-and-how-that-saved-wow

"[Blizzard co-founder] Allen Adham hoped to obtain a license to the Warhammer universe to try to increase sales by brand recognition", Wyatt says. "Warhammer was a huge inspiration for the art-style of Warcraft, but a combination of factors, including a lack of traction on business terms and a fervent desire on the part of virtually everyone else on the development team (myself included) to control our own universe nixed any potential for a deal. We had already had terrible experiences working with DC Comics on "Death and Return of Superman" and "Justice League Task Force", and wanted no similar issues for our new game."

There is no denying that the inspiration was there but I want you to tell me with a straight face that Warhammer fantasy/40k is wholly original IP.

**GurneyMan**

Guys what do you think about 40k writers ? I' mean they are not inventing anything, they are only following a ripped off setting....

I mean, what would be their writing genre ??? B rate action flickers based on other people ideas ?

**AL-PiXeL01**

Look at any rpg before WH and look at the description of orcs (Tolkien and other works) and goblins.
The impish features of Gretchen / goblins wasn't a GW idea in the first place.

If anyone ripped another party off, it's GW.

But I'm tired of all these ripoff threads. Why can't people just enjoy the fiction without doing "omg omg Fnuts ripoff!"?

The next thing you will tell me is the way Ender controls the fleets in Enders Game is a ripoff of the navigators choir and the local aliens in Speaker of the Dead are inspired by orcs because they are born from plants?

I love all scifi if it tells a great story or has a good narrative. I don't draw parallels as there isn't a need for it unless it is a direct copy paste.

So my advice to you if you can't help but do so is to abandon WH40k and any other universe that tints your perception and take a long break.

**Jayden63**

I'm just the opposite. Other fantasy / Sci-Fi just proves to me how slip shod, shoe horned, and unimaginative 40K is.

Everything in 40K has been done before and done better. Yes 40K is entertaining because I choose to let it be entertaining.

Yes, I'm old. I've seen and read it long before.

**Veteran Sergeant**

liquidjoshi wrote:
Going a little Off Topic, why exactly are the prequels seen as so bad? It's a complaint I've never really understood.

I don't feel like a post here can possibly explain this to you. To encapsulate it into a short idea is that they utterly fail on every level of storytelling, but worse, they took something many of us held dear from our childhoods (the original Star Wars movies) and repeatedly violated them. In uncomfortable places. With bats.

But the Plinkett Reviews do a good job breaking it down. And you'll get to have a laugh to boot. I highly suggest looking up "Plinkett Star Wars" in Google. I'd link you, but it's full of bad language and I don't want to get on the wrong side of some overzealous mod even with a language warning included on the link.

**Jayden63**

En Excelsis wrote:

STAR WARS: (really only the crappy new ones).
OMG The first one was basically a Tau Drone army invasion. It's not a humorous as Halo because the correlation is not as slap you in the face obvious, but the links are there... the Jedi are the Inquisition, the whole Separatist/Loyalist war is analogous for the IoM. I'll be damned if General Greivous wasn't a Necron Lord with a Pariah retinue.

I rather wonder how the episode 1 droid invasion is a copy of the Tau drone overrun when the Tau were released in 2001 and Episode 1 was released in 1999 (with production starting in 1997).

Seriously if your going to complain about something do your homework. Nothing makes your argument seem more foolish when 2 minutes on Wikipedia can destroy your entire point. Its like everyone who complains that the Deedlit elf character is nothing special because she looks like all anime elves. Nevermind that she did the whole big ear thing first.

**orkybenji**

Firefly's similarity to Starcraft detracted a bit from the show to me. I suppose that's a similar situation.

**Jehan-reznor**

No, Dune kicks 40k in the neather regions
About large imperiums read Larry niven's books or Asimov Foundation, or dealing with deamon like monster, Hyperion.
So many interesting story concepts out there that are different from 40k.

**chromedog**

thetallestgiraffe wrote:
I've never thought of the Spartans really like marines at all. I thought that Spartans didn't have power armour at all, I thought they used power shields over regular armour.

And aren't the covenant more the complete opposite of tau? They covenant is made of crazy religious zealots, more comparable to humans in a way, whereas tau are atheist. none of them really look similar either. And the eldar are based on elves anyway, as are many science fiction races, so they don't really count as a 40k or fantasy creation.

And I'm not sure that the links to star wars are that strong, and the comparisons there are more just "if there HAD to be an equivalent"s.

However I can see where you are coming from, science fiction stories, characters and races are all generally very samey, and a lot of writers and such probably did have other books, games, ect. when writing their own

The spartans use powered armour. That's what the mjollnir stuff is. Also WHY they had to be enhanced for its use. Unenhanced humans tended to break themselves trying to use the mjollnir suits. Tearing ligaments, pulling muscles, etc. The spartans STILL needed to be trained how to use their suits on top of their enhancements, too.

It's all covered in the first HALO novel, that covers the taking of those children, and of John-117 and how he became Master Chief. The personal shields came later, AFTER they encountered the covenant and recovered a shield unit - it was then reverse engineered and applied to the mjollnir armour.

**kb305**

what the heck are you smoking, blizzard has made some of the best games of all time. GW has nothing on blizzard.

warcraft 2, diablo, diablo 2 was an epic part of my childhood. diablo 3 is pretty good too, I enjoy playing it casually. it's not as revolutionary as diablo 2 was but the game really is executed perfectly, which is a lot more than I can say about GW games. just the way blizzard games play. so polished and smooth.

GW should hire blizzard to write their rules for them. just about anyone could do a better job.

**shamikebab**

The Halo comparisons are tenuous at best. The Covenant (other than being a collection of races) have very little in common with the Tau and I'm not seeing the Eldar/Forerunners comparison (unless it's as simple as old, advanced race) Also Space Marines/Spartans? Yes they both have genetic enhancements and powered armour....but the differences between Imperium and UNSC are huge.

**Mr. Burning**

gossipmeng wrote:
The great thing about 40k fiction is that there is such a wealth of it. The black library is constantly pushing out new content. Whereas other popular fictions can only push out a book or 2 a year.

There are a few good BL novels and writers. They serve the canon fairly well, excepting multi lazors. Picking up a Good BL book is like finding a fiver in your back pocket. It's a nice occurrence but nothing to keep you warm and cozy for a long period of time.

**MWHistorian**

I find the HH books to be exceptionally good. Oh, but the first three books are written in the style of ancient Greek epics. It starts "en media res" in the middle of a war, the search for knowledge leads to destruction, a Nequia: journey to the underworld" etc. etc. So I guess GW is ripping off Homer now. Learn about the sci-fi genre before complaining about it. Power armor, aliens and religion have been together since sci-fi started. Almost all sci-fi hold common things and themes, that's why its a genre. No one's ripping anything off, as an author I know by experience. That's what we do, we borrow stuff. Happens all the time.

**Bobthehero**

Lobukia wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
I wouldn't say that it ruins other series or fantasy settings for me, though I can often see that 40K influences, and is influenced by, a wealth of other fictions. In a lot of cases, though, I find that I sometimes prefer the origin stories (the ones that influenced 40K) and can appreciate a good tale that is influenced by 40K.

Though I really wouldn't say that the Star Wars prequels are a Tau/Necron vs Jedi/Inquisition thing. I mean, sure, you can apply the parallels.... sort of... but you have to really bend 40K lore into odd shapes to make it fit.

While I agree with your overall sentiment, the second I saw Episode I, I thought "Tau!"

Personally its when I saw the clones in EP 2, long rifle, full body armor, blue pulse... yeah.

**vodo40k**

40K dosent "ruin" other sci-fi settings for me, all i think in the majority of cases is that the IOM would absolutely devastate anything in other settings (excluding things like the culture series of course.)
Every sci fi borrows from every other sci fi. When i first saw the trailer for Bungie's new Destiny game for example, I immediately drew the comparisons with the age of strife from 40k. Dosent mean Bungie directly copied 40k, no more than 40k directly copied Dune.

**Lord Castellan**

Davor wrote:

You do know that Blizzard was to make 40K RTS for GW right? GW in their all mighty wisdom thought they could do a better job than Blizzard and basically told them to Frack off. So what would you do, after all that hard work making the program for them then told to "frak off we can do it better". Instead of wasting all their time and money on making the game for GW they made the game themselves.

I bet still to this day, GW is kicking them selves in the arse for not staying with Blizzard and making all that money.

Again, Blizzard didn't rip off GW, GW told them they don't want them to make 40K RTS, after Blizzard did all that work.

As for other shows/movies ripping off GW, or 40K, I don't see it. I see them either ripping off or in some cases paying homage to other IP, not 40K.

I am sure, if anyone was paying homage to 40K the GW lawyers would be there so fast to sue them.

Prove it.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Hasn't even Blizzard admitted the original game was supposed to be Warhammer, but they could never get the rights nailed down, so they just made a few changes to it and voila, the rest was history.

Of course it's just rampant Blizzard fanboism to say that Starcraft wasn't a rip of 40K. Of course, in 40K's defense, it's so heavily derivative it's hard for them to claim any real claim to the ideas. Blizzard did the "Just enough" game to get by, and made the bajillions. At the point that Starcraft came out, they had no need for the GW IP anymore.

**gork and possibly mork**

Just going back to the OPs halo is the same as warhammer comment, I disagree hugely. Spartans are not all that similar too space marines, there is no emperor, no inquisition, none of the chaos or heresy which is so key to the story of the imperium. Halo is an idea of our universe and society in 500 yrs. futhermore, the combat is reflective of real life in halo, as ranged weapons dominate the battlefields (in campaign atleast). Also the covenant is nothing like any of the races in 40k as it has its own complex hierarchy.
I enjoy both because they are very different, but I have found the recent halo games to be flogging a dead horse. I just hope the same dosent happen to 40k.

**Zed**

It is extremely difficult to make any sort of sci-fi story without stepping on toes. Advanced technology, spaceships, aliens, lasers... there's only so much material to work with in the first place. Dune, Star Wars, 40k, Halo, heck even Ender's Game to a tenuous extent, are all linked by the stuff they include to make them sci-fi in the first place. I like all of these worlds and stories, and find that by having similarities they enhance appreciation of each other rather than detract from it.

Even Fantasy is similar. Dwarves, Elves, knights, adventurers... if you want to go medieval-esque, you have to include at least some of those elements. Otherwise it just isn't the fantasy genre. However, I still wouldn't say reading the WHFB rulebook has ruined LOTR for me, or vice-versa.

**The Grumpy Eldar**

shamikebab wrote:
The Halo comparisons are tenuous at best. The Covenant (other than being a collection of races) have very little in common with the Tau and I'm not seeing the Eldar/Forerunners comparison (unless it's as simple as old, advanced race) Also Space Marines/Spartans? Yes they both have genetic enhancements and powered armour....but the differences between Imperium and UNSC are huge.

They are probably talking about the Forerunner with the Librarian and Didact. With all the forerunner being construct like beings. They look nothing like Eldar and if you know most of their story they are nothing alike.

Plus the whole background of the Halo Spartans is about the same as the ancient Spartans. The whole being taken away as a child to train and most of them not surviving. The rest such as the implants and armor is basic sci-fi.

The Tau anx Covenant like groups is pretty standart in sci-fi. The covenant aren't about expanfing their empire. They are obsessed with retrieving religious relics/forerunner tech, (Their obsession puts the Blood Ravens to shame.) and whiping out all humans as they are the runner ups to the Forerunner.

Moral of the story... Read into it's backgrounds to see the clear differences. Plus it makes it more fun.

**Furyou Miko**

The Trade Federation fliers look a little like Tau designs, granted.

However, something you need to realise is that 40k ripped off Star Wars many, many years before that. The Sensei are Jedi.

**Skriker**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Star Wars is awful. Watching the prequels should have ruined Star Wars for you on its own, without outside assistance.

The prequels are so irredeemably awful, they ruined my childhood and my ability to appreciate the originals, just because, by association, I remember the prequels.

Wow and you actually are able to get enjoyment from the mishmash of fluff and rules that don't corresond in 40k? Interesting...

Going to try and avoid commenting on the eternal whinefest that is the lament of the prequels.

Skriker