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 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Motograter wrote:
Saving myself a load of cash by not buying any of this. Prices are a joke

Congrats on being the first person to ever say that. You must feel special.

ditto...

 tvih wrote:
Multi-melta, on infantry? I never see that actually being used. And no wonder, it's not like tanks will just come to you for your to shoot them with one.

Vulkan He'Stan and Drop Pods don't need tanks to come to them.

I doubt many people actually flock to painting Iron Hands or whatever armies, since the book (as always) allows for DIY chapters to pick and choose the best trait depending on the tournament / matchup at hand.

I am really glad for the change to 5 man squads getting specials/heavies.

Now with KP only being 1 in 6 missions the drop pod list will not be as difficult to pull off. (Assuming the requirement of 10 dudes no longer applies......)

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 tvih wrote:
Multi-melta, on infantry? I never see that actually being used. And no wonder, it's not like tanks will just come to you for your to shoot them with one.

You see it all the time on Salamander lists. But then, you see multi-meltas EVERYWHERE on Salamander lists...

Well, I never see Salamander lists either so I guess that figures Haven't run one yet myself either despite having Vulkan. But even if I did, I still wouldn't use multi-meltas on infantry. Speeders, attack bikes, etc? Sure. Infantry? No.

 Leth wrote:
I am really glad for the change to 5 man squads getting specials/heavies.

Now with KP only being 1 in 6 missions the drop pod list will not be as difficult to pull off. (Assuming the requirement of 10 dudes no longer applies......)

I wondering if this new weapons rule, coupled with a combi-weapon on the Sgt., will see the return of the 4e Las/Plas units I heard about. Sure, the combi-plasma only gets to be fired once, but once is typically all you need, unless you're facing an all-termie army, which grow rarer by the day...

 tvih wrote:
Multi-melta, on infantry? I never see that actually being used. And no wonder, it's not like tanks will just come to you for your to shoot them with one.

Well, the same could be said about regular plain ol' melta, because it's not like tanks are going to come even closer for you to shoot them with one. But that's part of the point of melta weapons in general--your opponent doesn't want to get his tanks within range of your meltas. They're denial units (in the traditional sense, not the 40K rules sense) that help determine where your opponent is going to move his units.

As far as actually using them to kill tanks, that's what Drop Pods are for. If there's enemy armor that you absolutely, positively must take out in your first turn, you drop a melta/multi-melta squad next to it. You get one shot at regular BS and one at BS 1. And then, next turn, you get two at regular BS if the relevant models have survived.

Given that it's a free upgrade (at least until the new codex is actually released) there's no reason not to take a multi-melta if you're running a dedicated anti-armor Tac Squad. It's kind of a no brainer.

 tvih wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 tvih wrote:
Multi-melta, on infantry? I never see that actually being used. And no wonder, it's not like tanks will just come to you for your to shoot them with one.

You see it all the time on Salamander lists. But then, you see multi-meltas EVERYWHERE on Salamander lists...

Well, I never see Salamander lists either so I guess that figures Haven't run one yet myself either despite having Vulkan. But even if I did, I still wouldn't use multi-meltas on infantry. Speeders, attack bikes, etc? Sure. Infantry? No.

Then you're missing out. 4 twin-linked multi-meltas + a Sgt with Combi-melta in a drop pod means a lot of vehicles are going to have a very bad day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Youngblood13 wrote:

 tvih wrote:
Multi-melta, on infantry? I never see that actually being used. And no wonder, it's not like tanks will just come to you for your to shoot them with one.

Well, the same could be said about regular plain ol' melta, because it's not like tanks are going to come even closer for you to shoot them with one. But that's part of the point of melta weapons in general--your opponent doesn't want to get his tanks within range of your meltas. They're denial units (in the traditional sense, not the 40K rules sense) that help determine where your opponent is going to move his units.

As far as actually using them to kill tanks, that's what Drop Pods are for. If there's enemy armor that you absolutely, positively must take out in your first turn, you drop a melta/multi-melta squad next to it. You get one shot at regular BS and one at BS 1. And then, next turn, you get two at regular BS if the relevant models have survived.

Given that it's a free upgrade (at least until the new codex is actually released) there's no reason not to take a multi-melta if you're running a dedicated anti-armor Tac Squad. It's kind of a no brainer.

Exactly, Taking MMs on infantry (especially when Vulcan twin-links them) essentially creates a 12" bubble (24" for vehicles with AV 11 or less) around the unit that no vehicle dares cross except maybe fliers, and even then you just need one hit and they're gone.

I'd rather take say, 4 lascannons and threaten 48" than 4 multi-meltas and threaten 12", even if the latter is double armor pen. If I want to drop pod someone/thing, I'll drop regular meltas/combi-meltas that can actually hit something before being blasted off the table.

 tvih wrote:
I'd rather take say, 4 lascannons and threaten 48" than 4 multi-meltas and threaten 12", even if the latter is double armor pen. If I want to drop pod someone/thing, I'll drop regular meltas/combi-meltas that can actually hit something before being blasted off the table.

Thats perfect for most every other army (IFs in particular with re-rolls to armor pen). But specifically for Salamanders CT, and now only if you take Vulcan, MMs are the best.

I'm just glad we can now take heavy flamers with Tac squads.

Honestly, bandwagoners don't really bug me.

Everyone plays for certain reasons, some play for fluff, others play to win. As long as its all legal and not trying to cheat or subvert the rules, I don't think it's a big deal.

GW put it in a codex, they supposedly play tested it, and supposedly knew of the possible consequences of it. Don't get angry at the player who got C:CSM, saw the Heldrakes, bought 3, and dominated the next dozen games until his local meta caught up. Don't hate the Tau player who runs a Riptide or two because it's an awesome model. Don't hate the Daemon player with the re-rollable 2++ save on their HQ.

If you want to hate anyone for people playing the best units legally, hate Games Workshop for putting the unit in the way they did. 40k is a hobby, and there are lots of goals therein, but once the models his the table, the goal is to win.

It's one thing to say that you don't like people rushing to the new hotness on the internet, but letting it transfer to real life or the tabletop is taking it too far.

Likewise, don't hate the guy who rolls up to the table at 2000 points with primary detachments of White Scars with Khan and three squads of bikers, another primary detachment of Iron Hands with that insane biker relic CM HQ, two tac melta squads in drop pods, a Vindicator and a Whirlwind, and an allied detachment of Imperial Fists with a biker libby, a 3rd melta tac drop pod squad, a devastator squad with tank hunters, and an ADL manned by one of those devastators conferring tank hunters. It's legal, and if GW didn't want people doing that, then they should have set up the rules so that it couldn't be done.

LE codexes are on ebay already.

£179 for a Sallies one ...

Nobody seems to realize it- it's not the bandwagoners that are that bad, but rather the other people who really have a bad view of said bandwagoners, and treat all the people they don't know with a broad brush, even when some of use have been sticking it out with an army that's been average, or even sub-par, for years before getting amped up to boost sales of that army.

For instance, am I a bandwagoner for playing Necrons? Some people I might come up against that don't know me would claim it just because I play them. But it's not my fault they are hugely powerful all of a sudden. All my models are the metals that I have had painted since the Second Edition days, other than some metal Lords and Pariah models, and I don't even use flyers.

But bandwagoners are annoying, because the majority of the time they are only with the army because of the latest codex creep and want the power trip of slaughtering opponents. They aren't in it for the effort of devising (their own) tactics, or the hobby aspect of playing with an army of something other than bare metal and plastic, or discussing the cool fiction. It's just jarring to have people in a hobby that are only there for a reason that any other hobby can give them.

But definitely the larger grip is with GW, for such crazy codex creep that jumping on a bandwagon with a new army is even something to do.

Band wagon jumpers aren't the problem. It's the WAAC, cheese monkey players that I take exception with. You know, the really powerful combos like 3 Heldrakes or 3 squads of Honor Guard with Relic Blades. When a new codex is released, there's a certain type of player that min/maxs everything and finds cheesy combos/tactics/loopholes. I am glad that most people I play with are more about the cinematic and having fun than winning at all costs.

This might have been answered earlier:
Did I misread or do HQs have access to special weapons now (flamer, meltagun, plasmagun, grav rifle, etc...)?

 phoenix darkus wrote:
This might have been answered earlier:
Did I misread or do HQs have access to special weapons now (flamer, meltagun, plasmagun, grav rifle, etc...)?

According to 40k radio, that does appear to be the case. They even had to type out "special" and "special issue" separately, so the odds of it being a mistake are pretty small. Surprising, but definitely cool.

Oh man, I just had a vision of bikes with two special weapons, a combi-weapon on the sarge, and an HQ rolling around with a 4th weapon. Hey Terminators, how do you feel about 4 plasma-guns?

Nocturnus wrote:
Band wagon jumpers aren't the problem. It's the WAAC, cheese monkey players that I take exception with. You know, the really powerful combos like 3 Heldrakes or 3 squads of Honor Guard with Relic Blades. When a new codex is released, there's a certain type of player that min/maxs everything and finds cheesy combos/tactics/loopholes. I am glad that most people I play with are more about the cinematic and having fun than winning at all costs.

See, this is what I don't understand, what's the problem with playing the best list you can?

If it's a legal list, and it's played legally, then what's the problem, other than you don't like it? Again, GW put Heldrakes in the new codex, they knew that some people were going to run tripledrake lists. I won't say that every unit and rule that GW puts in a codex is fit to print, but attacking other players for using what's available to them is not ok. It's basically saying that people should gimp their lists so that they don't offend sentiments, despite the fact that when the models hit the table to goal is to win.

If you want to play more cinematic lists, that's fine, and I would never want anyone to stop playing a fluffy list, and equally I wouldn't ask someone to stop playing the best list they can think up. The game should be about accommodating all types, the painters, the fluff buffs, and the wargamers. Admittedly, the wargamers probably have an edge on the painters and fluff-centric players on the tabletop since they spend more of their 40k energy on trying to win, but that's fine. That's how someone wants to play the game, and so long as it's legal, they shouldn't be attacked for playing that way.

Heck, if anything, players like that are easier to counter than anyone. The meta gets so warped that you pretty much KNOW that someone playing X army is playing Y way, and as such can build in counters. Every CSM player bringing Heldrakes? Alright fine, excuse me while my two squads of IF Tank Hunting Devs, all with Flakk missiles, line up, and have a dude man that ADL. Now excuse me while I chew a HP or two off the moment they arrive with the ADL's interceptor, and finish them off the next turn with twelve S7 flakk shots, all with tank hunter.

Also, I see WAAC used in two completely different ways when discussing players. There are those who use WAAC as you have, discussing players who have legal lists and play legally, but with min maxed units, and then there are those who use the term as a sort of stand-in for "cheater" or someone who bends the rules, rather than operating within them. Those two things shouldn't be mixed together, and we need a standardized definition.

I can't contribute much as a brand-new player... but coming from having a LOT of experience in other games, I can say that I will always prefer to play what I like and have fun, than win at all costs. I got into this hobby to PERSONALIZE armies, crews, what-have you, and make them uniquely mine. I don't sit at a painting-table, often for hours on end, painting these minis, because I need to dominate fellow nerds in a competitive game that is ultimately meaningless.... I do it, to have fun, to field my favorite and coolest minis based on my love of fiction, lore, or just aesthetics, and I want to hit a table with a paint-job unlike the other guy/gal.

I would LIKE to always have a fighting chance at winning... but that really is secondary. Any game like this where codex and rules issues come piece-meal for factions, etc.... can NEVER be taken too seriously as competitive "sport", so we'd might as well have a blast.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to commit sacrillage... defile an unopened Space Hulk 3rd Ed. and turn the Termies into members of my "Fortunate Sun", Iron Hands sub-chapter... in all their yellow, black, and gold... bumble-bee looking non-glory. :-p

@DogofWar1

Good comments being posted here. Logical thought in your postings.

Grab cannon deathstar:

6 centurions, grav cannons, grav amps + allied DA Libby with PFG = 30 reroll to hit and wound grav shots

Ouch...

The Razorback changes seem unusual to me. Upgrades are cheaper, but base cost increase means you still pay the same amount as 5th ed for them; you're forking over +15pts for a TL heavy bolter Razorback.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
Grab cannon deathstar:

6 centurions, grav cannons, grav amps + allied DA Libby with PFG = 30 reroll to hit and wound grav shots

Ouch...

And those shots are ap2, MCs and Termies will brixs.

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
I'm just glad we can now take heavy flamers with Tac squads.

You can't. The spoiler specifically said (twice) that HFs are exclusive to Sternguard and LotD squads. That collection manager screenshot (if that's where you're getting this assumption from) is riddled with typos and incorrect information. It's likely from an old beta testing program for the software, or was simply thrown together as an example. It's not accurate for the squad options.

Don't get me wrong, I'd kill for a HF option in Tac squads, but we're not getting one.

 tvih wrote:
Multi-melta, on infantry? I never see that actually being used. And no wonder, it's not like tanks will just come to you for your to shoot them with one.

That's precisely why they're good. It creates a 24" bubble your opponent doesn't want to move armor into. Zoning out the locations of your opponent's army is precisely what a midrange gunline army wants to do, especially with objective-based victory conditions. It seems like you're simply inexperienced with winning C:SM tactics.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to commit sacrillage... defile an unopened Space Hulk 3rd Ed. and turn the Termies into members of my "Fortunate Sun", Iron Hands sub-chapter... in all their yellow, black, and gold... bumble-bee looking non-glory. :-p

Ah, that kind of sacrilege is the most fun! I am using the SH terminators as the core of my Blood Angels counts-as Deathwing army (double sacrilege in this day and age!). Seemed like a cool way to field the 1st Company of the Blood Angels in Terminator armor. I even have a "vanilla" terminator painted in scraped-up Ultramarines heraldry to fit with an old Rogue Trader era piece of fluff.

 tvih wrote:
I'd rather take say, 4 lascannons and threaten 48" than 4 multi-meltas and threaten 12", even if the latter is double armor pen.

I said that no Space Marine player should be without a Marine equipped with a Multi-Melta (note the singular). You responded by pointing out that opponents are unlikely to drive their tanks into a Multi-Melta's threat range. I agreed with your statement and pointed out that a Multi-Melta can be used as a denial unit to keep enemy armor away from certain areas of the board or it could be dropped next to a big scary tank as part of an Alpha Strike.

I did not say that Multi-Meltas are the only heavy weapons that Space Marine players should equip their Tac Squads with. I did not say that a Space Marine player should equip four Tac Squads with Multi-Meltas. I did not say that a Space Marine player should equip four Tac Squads with Multi-Meltas instead of taking Lascannons.

Given what I said and what I didn't say, it's obvious that you're working on building a strawman. Since I have no reason to argue in support of things I did not say and positions I do not subscribe to, all I can do there is wish you the best of luck with your new creative endeavor.

 tvih wrote:
If I want to drop pod someone/thing, I'll drop regular meltas/combi-meltas that can actually hit something before being blasted off the table.

Taking a Tac Squad with a meltagun and a combi-melta doesn't preclude taking a Multi-Melta. In fact, until the new codex is officially released, it costs the same to put a Multi-Melta into the squad as it does not to. Now, you could take a different heavy weapon, combat squad the Tac Squad, drop the Melta and Combi-Melta on a tank and put the other heavy weapon somewhere else. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that. Personally, I like to dedicate a full squad to alpha strike duty as it's way more survivable and it will draw more fire. Also, if it does survive, then there are all sorts of things you can do with Tac Marines in the opponent's back ranks. But that's what vanilla Marines are all about--flexibility.

My position, which I stand by, is that no Space Marine player should be without a Marine equipped with a Multi-Melta. That is still, in my opinion, one of several reasons that the Devastator box is a good buy for a starting Space Marine player.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Then you're missing out. 4 twin-linked multi-meltas + a Sgt with Combi-melta in a drop pod means a lot of vehicles are going to have a very bad day.

Except for the very important detail about how they must Snap Fire on the turn they arrive, and so probably won't blow up anything. Then they stand there and die. This only works with Logan for Relentless, and even at that, it is a waste of Logan's abilities.

"Sales"
(I have the one I tried to make here )

Grav deathstar "light": Tigurius, biomancy (endurance), command squad with 5 Grav rifles + captain with Grav rifle. Sprinkle some stormshields for better saves and voila!

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Then you're missing out. 4 twin-linked multi-meltas + a Sgt with Combi-melta in a drop pod means a lot of vehicles are going to have a very bad day.

Except for the very important detail about how they must Snap Fire on the turn they arrive, and so probably won't blow up anything. Then they stand there and die. This only works with Logan for Relentless, and even at that, it is a waste of Logan's abilities.

Ultramarines CT can make them Relentless the turn they land now. It's still a 1-trick pony, but it works, and you get the relentless part without expending any more points.

I forget that he knows all disciplines, so definitely prescience as well!