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Hey, I was just looking for advice on this list and how to improve it. Any comments on the list(or its stupidity) are welcome.

HQ:
Ordo Malleus Inquisitor 85 pts
2x demonblades
psyker lvl. 1

Troops:
Terminator Squad 470 pts
10x termies
2x psycannons
psybolts

Terminator Squad 470 pts
10x termies
2x psycannons
psybolts

Strike Squad 290 pts
10x grey knights
2x psycannons
psybolts
1x Demonhammer
rhino

Heavy Support:
Purgation Squad 145 pts
4x Incinerators
Teleport Homer
rhino

Nemesis Dreadknight 260 pts
Great Sword
Incinerator
Teleporter

Nemesis Dreadknight 280 pts
Incinerator
Psycannon
Teleporter


2000 pts

C+C welcome!

I like it but I don't see how you're going to handle fliers.

I see your point. Sadly the only real AA in the codex is the Stormraven. So, that begs the question of whether I get rid of the Strike Squad, a Dreadknight, or Terminators.

Is it really possible for the Inquisitor to carry two demonblades? I myself am not quite sure and I think he could do with a bit more armour.
I hear dreadnaughts with two twin-linked machinecannons and psybolt ammo are quite good against flyers...
How do you plan to include deep-strike tactics (since you have the teleport homer on the purgation squad.)?

The FAQ does everything short of say outright that you can take two daemonblades. In fact the only restriction is that you choose one in close combat.

Dreadnaughts with dual autocannons and psybolt ammunition are both cheap (135 pts) and are twinlinked. but that is sill only 1.3 hits stats-wise. I'll give it a shot though. The army has no skyfire . Actually I'm thinking that I should just trade out the strike squad and the inquisitor for a stormraven, and a brother-captain.

As for deep-strike, the plan is to drive the purgtion squad forward, with the dreadknights on the flanks, use psychic communion t bring in reserves on a 2+, and go to town. Termies are scoring so I can steal my opponents objectives.

C+C please!

It actually is something I thought about myself, but fluffwise I thing I'm more a purist than a radical

It really bugs me, too that GK have so few really long range weapons, flyers and anti aircraft. At least some fast vehicle like a landspeeder would have been nice... but now I'm just ranting.
Onwards to your list.

A brother-captain as HQ is quite cheap, true, but for 25 more points (which is not too much considering), you get a grandmaster who has a better BF (a jump from 5 to 6 isn't that interesting though, except for a hit reroll, where you only hit with a six...) and grand strategy. Now, grand strategy really is worth its points since it is really flexible. As you want to drive your purgation squad forward, with grand strategy you can give them scout and thus you can redeploy them 12 inches closer to the middle of the board (just as an example). Or, you can make a dreadknight take an objective...
If you have to cut down something in your current list, I think it should be terminators ( I really love the guys, too, and it saddens me to even say this), since the only thing that makes them better than the ordinary strike squad are the cheaper Nemesis-weapon options and the terminator armour (since the strike squad can also deep strike).

so a list could look like this:
HQ:
Grandmaster with halberd 180 pts.

Elites:
2 Solodins with halberd (you can deep strike them in and annoy the opponent, and I had some points left) 55pts. each

Troops:
Terminator Squad 470 pts
10x termies
2x psycannons
psybolts

Strike Squad 290 pts
10x grey knights
2x psycannons
psybolts
2x Demonhammers
rhino

Fast Attack:
Stormraven 205 pts.
twin-linked heavy bolter
twin-linked lascannon

Heavy Support:
Purgation Squad 145 pts
4x Incinerators
Teleport Homer
rhino

Nemesis Dreadknight 260 pts
Great Sword
Incinerator
Teleporter

Nemesis Dreadknight 280 pts
Incinerator
heavy psycannon
Teleporter

total: 1945
--> you could still kick the solodins and some other stuff to have an additional strike squad or even a terminator squad if you relocate the points properly

I like that new list, although I'd change the stormraven load out to a multi-melta and an assault cannon. Then pull one of the solodins to throw in psybolts on the stormraven and maybe some grenades on the GM. That or hurricane bolters on the 'raven. Thing is meant to bring down fliers, and provide air support. If that's all it does, mission accomplished.

I-7 on a Psychic Terminator...classic.

Well, I was going a bit for range with my 'raven loadout, but yours works maybe even better. The great thing is: the list I've posted above has 55 pts. still left for stuff (somehow I missed a number while typing....it is now edited).... like psybolts and hurricane bolters on the stormraven

Yep that's great. If you like that, look at the librarians power "Quicksilver"...

1.3 hits is good enough vs fliers as it's the only thing we have.

I suggest making room for a couple of said dreadnoughts as they are excellent at killing just about everything.

Warpy, I think your original list will do fine against fliers. With psybolt ammo you can damage the rear armor of all the fliers, and with two shots from each stormbolter you shouldn't have a problem connecting with a few shots. It's by no means guaranteed, but you should be able to do enough damage so they don't run all over you.

I agree.
Especially if you have the inquisitor with some termies for the twin link on their psycanon and stormbolters, you can wreck most fragile vehicles easily and even some hard ones potentially.

Looking at the list now, its not just Fliers, AV 14 is another problem. Psycannons have a 1 in 54 chance of destroying a Land Raider outright per hit. Just as melta has a 7 in 24 chance of destroying one per hit. That's just below a 1 in 3 chance. That comes from one round that can be in range no questions asked on turn 2, and will attract a lot of attention, allowing the Terminators free reign on the ground.

Another reoccurring problem is footslogging. On a 6'*4' table, the local meta, it takes way too long for terminators to get to where they need to. Therefore, they will A) not always be able to use their psycannons/psybolts against fliers, and B) not be able to fully engage against faster/shootier units. The place for terminators in this codex seems to show on the front lines of every engagement. That doesn't make them perfect, Deathwing, Crusaders, and many others can still tear them apart given the chance, but Termies work best when they can shoot, and assault in the same turn. A big question now is whether a Banner would be worth it.

Oooh! Let's not forget the grand master solving both the issues of reserves with psychic communion, and making dreadknights scoring.

To be fair, I did the math of 6 psycannons against AV 14, and the odds were slightly better...8 in 27. Closer to 1 in 3 than the twin-linked melta, but a far larger waste in points. Those 6 psycannons were from the infantry squads, Units much better used against the enemy troops. Admittedly a dreadknight could do the job, but he has to survive the onslaught of people suffering from Big Scary Model Syndrome first. I can pass the 5++, but I'll fail way too many armor saves.

The Psyfleman Dread rocks for what he costs, just not against flyers. Or at least not against flying vehicles. I've seen him pin flying MC's regularly.

C+C please!

consider an inquisitor with some jokaeros for dealing with av 14? and pop in a crusader to give that unit a 3++. also buy the dreadknight a teleporter upgrade. without it he dies to lots of weak dakka.

Farseer w/ guide, prescience and lots of psycannons will take out flyers. And since your playing your army as a not a radical Inquisitional force it kinda makes since they would use the help of xenos.

Re flyers, I'd suggest an ADL with Quad cannon rather than a Stormraven. It's cheaper and you get to shoot at one flyer before it does any damage.

Re AV14 - just use a dreadknight. That will do it.

Also, I'd swap the DK psycannon for the sword. I've been underwhelmed by the Pyscannon, but being able to reroll everything is very helpful.

Remember, you don't just have to shoot AV14. For starters, there isn't a whole lot of it out there (though that is honestly why I like to take a LR at tourneys, nobody is expecting them). When you do see the occasional AV14, jump your teleknight up and punch it in the face. Or take your Termie squads with hammers and shoot Psycannons at it, THEN go punch it in the face with Daemon Hammers.

For flyers, an Aegis and a Storm dont really have the same power...
The quadgun will maybe wreck weak flyers (Eldars, Orks...) but likely not tough ones (AV12) as you will likely only get 1HP of it by turn...

I'm not sure I agree. For 100pts, you get S7AP4 Heavy 4 interceptor/skyfire. That pretty much covers you up to AV12.

To quote a Guard player, "there is a big difference between 5s and 6s." even if there isn't much of one mathematically. And it's 6s I'd need against stormravens, and helldrakes. Plus, the stormraven does things the quadgun can't, such as harass ground units, fire mindstike missiles at enemy Grey Knights(I hate fighting myself), and deal with the tough armor that's already making a comeback at my FLGS (saw 2 LR's in a 1000 pt list this week, made for some fun games), not to mention the rending and AP1 that can be fired at MC's.

You are probably right about the psycannon. The sword has never let me down(DIE you freaking MC!!), and the psycannon has a scatter of as much as 8 inches. It was a bit of a letdown. When you have a personal teleporter on him, you don't really need range options past the incinerator. Although If I ever see a Great Unclean One, I am unloading the psilencers. 2 wounds per gun on T10 MC, re-rolling 1s.

Well to discuss on the quadgun, lets do the maths.

Imagine a AV12 flyer comes in, with BS4 lets say you do 3.5 hits.
Then he jinkes half of those so you have 2 hits left (to be generous).
You then have a 33% chance of doing one HP so you actually do less then one.
and as you have AP4 you get no bonus.

So to be generous lets say you do one HP a turn.

With a storm if you go with MM and LC you do 0.9 hits on both weapons which comes to lets say 0.5 for each weapon.

Then you have for the MM 2d6 rolls for penetration and have 0.5 chance of a penetrating hit on the LC.
So you do maybe 0.70 penetrating hits but these have half a chance of blowing it up.
Then you have the rest of the weapons on infantry, screamerstar/seerstar/Draigostar/tervigons........

sleekid wrote:
Well to discuss on the quadgun, lets do the maths.

Imagine a AV12 flyer comes in, with BS4 lets say you do 3.5 hits.
Then he jinkes half of those so you have 2 hits left (to be generous).
You then have a 33% chance of doing one HP so you actually do less then one.
and as you have AP4 you get no bonus.

So to be generous lets say you do one HP a turn.

With a storm if you go with MM and LC you do 0.9 hits on both weapons which comes to lets say 0.5 for each weapon.

Then you have for the MM 2d6 rolls for penetration and have 0.5 chance of a penetrating hit on the LC.
So you do maybe 0.70 penetrating hits but these have half a chance of blowing it up.
Then you have the rest of the weapons on infantry, screamerstar/seerstar/Draigostar/tervigons........

Ok, do the maths, but do it PROPERLY. You forgot Jink saves in your storm raven calculation and you have assumed you are within 12 inches to get the 2D6 roll. And all this assumes that you are able to shoot at full BS because the other players quad cannon forced you to Jink when you came in, so you are only firing snap shots.

@warpy, trying to fit a stormraven in will effectively mean you have to drop either a DK or the Strike squad. If you drop a DK, you'll seriously impact your T2 effectiveness (because anything coming out of the stormraven, if it comes in on T2, can't assault until T3). If you drop the strike squad, you might as well run DraigoWing.

Another factor to consider is that the ADL provides cover for the Rhinos in case you go second. Probably useless against Tau, but at least everyone else's job is a bit harder.

Actually i did not forget jinx for the storm if you read or it would not be 0.5 hit per weapon.

With a storm and its movement is it really hard to be in the 12ps???

I would never jinx against a single quad canon with a storm actually.

But even if you take out jinx on both sides.
You get 3.5 S7 hits on the AV12 so 1/3 chance of a penetrating make it a bit above one HP.

With the storm you get 0.9 hot with the MM which makes it about 0.8 penetrating so 0.4 chance of wrecking it and with the LC you get 0.9 hits as well with 0.45 of penetrating so 0.2 chance of wrecking it again...

So on one side you have done on average a bit over one HP with very little chance of a wreck (about 1/12) while you get about 60% chance of a wreck with the storm.

AND with the storm you can fire at something else with other weapons and even potentially wreck TWO flyers a turn...

Dreadknights are 3 or none to me IMO
Also only give them one gun.

Sleekid, the fact that you would never jink against a single quad gun with a stormraven seals it for me. If It can't threaten what it needs to, then it can't do it's job, and if it can't do it's job, then it needs to be replaced or improoved. case in point, psybolts on a dual autocannon dread. No one else uses dual autocannon dreads (that i've seen) because they don't have psybolts. They improoved the strength, and we jumped on it. Also I'm pretty sure that Power of the Machine Spirit always shoots at full BS.

As for going second, there are other ways around that. Usually I hide behind buildings, or in ruins. Not to mention the army's natural armor. Not to mention using the second rhino for cover to begin with.

@Sleekid - Apologies, you did take Jink into account. Further apologies because my sentence didn't correctly convey what I meant.

What I meant was that in order to do the comparison properly, you need to calculate the chances of a given outcome (say weapon destroyed or better) across the range of hits from the autocannon. Using just 1 scenario (4 hits, jink stops 2, etc) isn't accurately comparable to a 1 shot lascannon or MM.

In this case in order to math it, you need the probability curve.

@warpy - it is your army, so play it the way that makes sense to you.

As a contrasting view, consider the following:

a) Unless the GK Stormraven has Interceptor (not near my codex), when you choose to use Skyfire you can't then shoot different weapons at ground targets unless you snapshot.

b) Unless you are solely going to be playing sleekid, the fact that he doesn't jink is irrelevant. For the purposes of the example (eg a helldrake) exploding is the ideal scenario. Jink, weapon destroyed or a stunned result are just as good from a table top perspective - the key thing is to reduce the effectiveness. Being able to do that in the enemy turn, before they can use their flyer is hugely valuable

c) Given the discussion above, it is fairly obvious that every opponent will have some mechanism for dealing with flyers. So, consider that your stormraven may get killed on the turn it arrives. This will then take out most of any units in it plus probably take out some other ground based units as well. So you may need to take 2, in order to get the opponent to spread some of that fire around.

d) If you are going to have troops in it, you probably won't want to be chasing enemy flyers around to get within 12" for the MM to work. You'll want to get the troops delivered first (see point c).

I'm not saying that Stormravens are bad nor that Quad cannons are the best thing since sliced bread. Just trying to make sure that both sides of the story are presented.

@MarkCron - whatever I may come across as, I in no way mean to diminish what you bring to the discusion. I appreciate all criticism and complaints thatt are more inteligent than, "you suck"

I personally dislike spending points on a peice of cover that works best if I intend to use it for most of my army. It limits my efficency for deepstriking; which is the intent for much of this list. However, sitting here I'm mentally reviewing all the terrain setups I've played on. I can see where a 4+ cover save for dreadknights on turn 1, going second, would be useful. estimating cost at 100 pts (don't have my BRB) It wouldn't be too hard to take both. Pull the Paladins from the above suggested list (which I admit I like), plug in the wall w/quad gun, and and psybolts with hurricane bolters on the stormraven, pull the psycannon and add the greatsword to the second dreadknight, add a brotherhood banner to the Termie Squad, and it should look like this:

Grandmaster with halberd 180 pts.

Troops:
Terminator Squad 495 pts
10x termies
2x psycannons
psybolts
Brotherhood Banner

Strike Squad 290 pts
10x grey knights
2x psycannons
psybolts
1x Demonhammers
rhino

Fast Attack:
Stormraven 255 pts.
twin-linked multi-melta
twin-linked assault cannon
hurricane bolters
psybolts

Heavy Support:
Purgation Squad 145 pts
4x Incinerators
Teleport Homer
rhino

Nemesis Dreadknight 260 pts
Great Sword
Incinerator
Teleporter

Nemesis Dreadknight 260 pts
Great Sword
Incinerator
Teleporter

Fortifications:
Aegis Defense Line 100 pts
Quad Gun

total: 1985

That leaves options for grenades on the GM. Hmmm...rad or psychotroke?

Nice list.

Rad for effectiveness, Psychotroke for giggles. When psychotrokes go off it is hilarious - and most of the options are useful. But with GK, you can't beat reducing a unit to T3.

I know exactly what you mean with the ADL, I much prefer deepstriking, interceptors and teleporters too.

I normally use Coteaz so I take 3 warrior acolytes and stick him and them behind the ADL. Prescience takes care of the lower BS and if I get the ignores cover power, well that's just gravy. This solves the problem, comparatively small investment.

I know you aren't taking special characters so that doesn't work in this list.

I hope the list works and is fun!

You are right, my maths were not perfect, on a phone it was hard

Now i can do it better.

Lets really compare the AA capacity, both the storm and the Aegis bring also something else (transport and toughness for the Storm and a cover for the Aegis).
I propose not to take into account jinx at first for either, and then we can use jinx as well to compare again.

1)The Quadgun
It brings 4BS4 (if manned correctly) twin linked shots so 3.5555 hits.
These go into 0.59 glancing hits, 0.494 penetrating hits that dont explode it and 0.0987 penetrating hits that explode it.
So if you say that a boom is worth 3 HP, that makes an average of 0.494+0.59+0.0987*3 = 1.38 HP

So on average if the opposing flyer did not jinx he takes 1.38 HP with a probability of exploding of less then 10%...

2) The StormRaven
You have on MM shot which will make 0.88888 hits.
This has a 1/12 chance of not penetrating, 1/12 chance of glancing and 10/12 chance of penetrating.
So you make 0.074 glancing hits, 0.37 penetrating hit that dont explode and 0.37 booms.
Then you have the LC with 0.8888hits.
This has a 1/3 chance of not penetrating, 1/6 chance of glacing and 0.5 chance of penetrating.
So you make 0.148 glancing hits, 0.2222 penetrating hits without booms and 0.2222 booms

So on total when you compare the probability of explosion you have :
StormRaven : 59.2%
Quadgun : 9.87% (so about 1/6 of the chance you get with a storm....)

When you look at average HP done in total you have :
Quadgun : 1.38 HP
Storm : 2.59HP

To be honest now, i dont particularly like the storm, and i often play an aegis, but for AA purpose there is no comparaison as far as i am concerned, Quadgun will manage Eldar/Orks types of flyers but wont really manage the touger one.
To be honest with a heldrake/Storm or vendetta would you jinx if there is a quadgun in front of you on arrival knowing you have about 10% chance of crashing and that he wont be able to fire next turn? i am not sure what the point of flyers would be then...

Fair point on the 10% chance of crashing, though not everyone thinks that through, and I've seen wierder. That's half the fun is seeing those wierder things happen, no matter how much the adds are against it.

sleekid wrote:
You are right, my maths were not perfect, on a phone it was hard

Now i can do it better.

Lets really compare the AA capacity, both the storm and the Aegis bring also something else (transport and toughness for the Storm and a cover for the Aegis).
I propose not to take into account jinx at first for either, and then we can use jinx as well to compare again.

1)The Quadgun
It brings 4BS4 (if manned correctly) twin linked shots so 3.5555 hits.
These go into 0.59 glancing hits, 0.494 penetrating hits that dont explode it and 0.0987 penetrating hits that explode it.
So if you say that a boom is worth 3 HP, that makes an average of 0.494+0.59+0.0987*3 = 1.38 HP

So on average if the opposing flyer did not jinx he takes 1.38 HP with a probability of exploding of less then 10%...

Made my share of phone/iPad whoopsies (damn autocorrect!) as well .

Thanks for the math. No question about the math on the LC/MM. With the quad though, the average is a little misleading, because of the range of results from the higher number of hits. So, in order to assess correctly, we should also add to the calculation the result from 1 std deviation either way (to reflect rolling a higher and lower percentage of glancing/penetrating). I haven't done the math, because see below.

But - in the end, non math factors often have the greatest impact. For example, many players are very invested in their flyers and don't always make mathematically sound decisions. So - the psychological impact of getting shot at in their turn plus the fact that just about any result from a penetrating hit has the same effect as Jink (heldrakes particularly) often have a bigger influence on the game.

Anyway, ymmv applies so play the unit that is most fun for you!








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ninja'd on the psych impact!