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Every time I sit down to play my marines, I think to myself "it sure would be nice if I could get some use out of my fun terminator models". Then I think about the cost in points, and how much more stuff I could field that wont just die to melta, plasma, and soon grav gun spam. I play a lot of necron and tau armies, and they have always been a hinderance. Even with Lysander leading them, they rarely make their points back, in either kills or firepower dedicated to killing them. And you can forget about regular terminators, TH?SS already are kinda fragile for the value.

I have the same problems with Deff Dreads - slow, easier to pop than they should be, only worthwhile or fun in close combat.

Use them the way troopers like this (and dreadnoughts too) *should* be used - close quarters fighting on spaceships (ie Space Hulk) and in underground complexes, cave systems, stuff like that.

Give the Forgeworld ruleset "Zone Mortalis" a go, they're available for free on their website (just use google). People have described these rules as "the only reason I still play 40k" and I'm seeing why more and more.

In short - you probably can't, there will almost always be better choices for your points.

Standard terminators are expensive for what they are, they are only twice as durable as a standard marine vs small arms fire, but well over double the points. Sure they have a power fist, but in shooty 6th edition getting it into CC might not be easy.

TH/SS are some of the best CC fighters in the game, but this is exactly the problem. The are still CC specialists in a meta that punishes anything that doesn't shoot or fly. Whilst undeniably durable, the actual need for such an expensive dedicated CC unit in a SM list is questionable. Perhaps the best thing they bring to the table is the psychological factor of deep striking them into the enemy lines and distracting his big guns fro the rest of your army.

This isn't to say they are unplayable, but just not the most efficient choice to take. I play DA DW, but if I have to win at any costs then terminators aren't coming near the table.

So I play Eldar quite frequently, and the short answer is simply: Hope you have good dice rolls. 3++ is still nice, but the newer 'dexs have no problem stacking those invulns.

I've had some decent luck with the old Land Raider + Terminators. It's pricey, but I prefer giving them the extra layer of protection rather than simply bringing more terminators. I don't even bother shooting the LR most of the time. Just move, pop smoke, move, move etc... and hope I get in assault range in time. This works really well with the Master of Manouvre Warlord Trait, but that's hardly reliable.

I used to Deep Strike them a lot because they were able to weather a round of shooting before getting into assault, but that method of delivery has really lost it's viability IMO.

The new dex isn't going to help with this either being that they are going up in point cost. So they are probably going to see less time on the table for a while.

Use them as bully units. They're more strategic tac marines, not an entirely different class of units that beats more face or is more durable for its points.

Play against Tyranids a lot, we have no shooting better than AP 4 apart from psychic powers.

Play against Tyranids a lot, we have no shooting better than AP 4 apart from psychic powers.

True, but again it comes down to points efficiency. Point for point in CC, hormagaunts should beat out terminators.

A beatstick unit perhaps, TH/SS squads do well vs specific targets, such as daemon princes and the like. Though vs some line ups (tau gunline for example) they will find limited use, as weight of fire brings them down as well as any other unit.

I think you'd have to use them as sacrificial units now. Either force your opponent to use those big guns on them and not something else, or let them get into assault since its going to take their entire armys non-ap2 shooting to kill them otherwise.

Though theyre still a pain in the butt vs orks. My friend likes to be a dick and bring 6 of them when i play orks because he knows the ONLY thing i have to face it is a bikernob force or a SAG which i usally dont have unless im being silly. Theyve taken the blunt of over 120 dice from shootas and i killed 1. And he just challenges out my nob in boyz group with a character that doesnt have an unwieldy weapon.

The problem I fear is your regular opponents' choice of army. Necrons and Tau are both armies that do really well with shooting but reliably pants in combat. The trouble with Terminators is that they have drawbacks that make them all but useless against both armies.

Against Necrons, they can't perform sweeping advances - so if a unit runs from combat (more than likely), your Termies are stuck out in the open. This is true of any army, but especially bad with Necrons needing to be run down fully to stop a unit from just getting back up (particularly with Ghost Arks).
Against Tau, you can't reliably stay in combat when every other unit has jetpacks. You just can't catch anything.

More generally - it's still useful to have a Land Raider to drop them off. This more often than not keeps the unit safe *and* gives them the necessary speed to actually catch something, which even teleporting won't always give you.

As far as shooty Termies goes, they can be useful (though arguably not worth the cost) - but it's all a case of picking your targets. Don't just stick them out in front and expect them to soak up fire, or your opponent will level something high AP at them leaving everything else free to fire at everything else you have. Instead, try dropping them to one flank or at the back where there's some vulnerable unit that won't be able to take them out. Your opponent will be forced to either redirect attention to them - not just turning and firing, but actually moving, which takes the heat off your other units - or try and ignore them, which allows you to set up some opportunities for trapping units or hitting vehicles from the rear.

It would be nice to know which army you're playing as and which termies you actually own.

Don't listen to the nay-sayers about termies being dead and gone, while they may not be the most point-efficient unit for a purely competitive list, they can still make up for their cost in other ways.

1) Allies and count-as are your best friends when it comes to termies. What do I mean by that? Well, plain old 'nilla termies don't really bring anything special to the table, so give them a little flavor: those shooty termies picking up dust? Use them as DAs with a heavy flamer and Belial and DS them turn one in the face of those pesky Tau and deny their cover save with the HF. Want some brutal CC assault termies? Black Templar mix of TH/SS and claws with a chaplain and EC for rage and furious charge (that one is a bit pricy I'll admit). How about IA characters? I tried a full squad of shooty termies with Lysander and Valthex once: 20 TL hellfire rounds storm bolters... that was epic.

2) However worried you are about losing your termies, they MUST be played aggressively, so for me it means 2 things: if I'm using shooty termies they will almost always deep strike (that's where DWA helps) or if I have CC termies they will always have a LR of some kind to get them to the fray.

3) You've got to play your termies smart and that's where going 2nd really helps: as beefy as termies are, they need to be a scalpel, not a hammer. Deploying them right will make-or-break them; for that reason I typically try to go 2nd when I field termies so as to utilize them to their best.

4) Termies aren't gonna win you the game by themselves (unless you're playing all DW, in which case they might), they need a good supporting crew. Since they'll most likely be isolated from the rest of your army you need to field units that either have the range to help them out from a distance or the mobility to bring short-range weapons to bear. You also need anti-horde and anti-flyer support since termies aren't really designed to handle them.

5) Utilize your termies to their full extent possible. I can't tell you how many times a single termie has won me the game by running for line breaker, contesting an objective, punching something to death for an extra kill-point or just plain survive.

Example 2k build, this is my most competitive list with current codexes and the models I own, it's won games against Necron dual wraith-stars, plasma-fest SMs, dark eldar skimmer spam and even ravenwing:

Primary detachment:

Belial with TH/SS and a stock Libby with prescience and PFG
2 squads of DW termies, all shooty (CML & AC)
Mortis Contemptor (kheres, CML), devastators (2 las, 2 MLs)
Predator las sponsoons, ADL quad gun

Allies:

Lysander, 10 sterns in pod 2 combiflamers, 2 combimeltas
5 man sniper squad with cloaks in reinforced ruin
Stormtalon, CML
TFC

I try to go second, find the weakest area in the opponent's deployment and throw in both DW squads + Lysander pod at it for a devastating turn 1 attack, it forces your opponent to react to you with 3 powerfull targets. I keep them together for mutual support.
In the backfield: the devastators man the quadgun joined by the Libby (fearless, so they'll never run off the edge), I try to deploy the pred and contemptor nearby for the 4++ (PFG). They establish the no-fly-zone on the home camp and provide fire support for the assault. The TFC and snipers setup in a ruin with an objective and add their firepower (TFC is awesome).
As you can see there are only 3 very small scoring units but the army meshes together really well.

Hope this helps put some faith back in your termies! Cheers!

Ss/th termis in a landraider crusader is still really good. Pretty much only way to make them work IMO at the moment.

Pony_law wrote:
Ss/th termis in a landraider crusader is still really good. Pretty much only way to make them work IMO at the moment.

I agree with you, this is one of the few ways I use them. I myself have a LRC and some DW Knights/ Assault squad.

As to whether they are "really good" is a matter or opinion & what armies you run against. They are still 500+ points for 5 CC men and a transport. Which is a lot of points when you consider it.

Still for fun games I run my DW knights with an Interrogator Chaplain in a LRC. Sure they hit like a truck and a very fluffy. But they are not the most competitive choice.

Agree with a good amount of people in this thread.

The way I look at it is, the only way they are useful is by getting them IN to combat. To do so you have 2 options:

1. Deep strike them and hope they survive a turn of shooting
2. Put them in a Land Raider and drive them up the field

IMO, the later is the best option given the type of army you are facing. Having to take a round of shooting from Eldar or Tau is going to neuter or wipe the squad of termies before they get a chance to come close. Against other armies, survivability is a bit better, so deep striking them becomes more of an option.

I think the problem people run into is that Terminators get used in situations far greater than they're capable of in the current edition. A lot of people (myself included) still use them like we are in 5th ed. thinking they are the unstoppable wall of death they used to be. Now, when I bring them, I find myself having to be a lot more thoughtful on where they are going to go and who they are going to engage.

To be honest, I think the way to field Termys is in large numbers or not at all. They may not make their points back, but they're good for taking out that one thing that's going to wreck your plan, i.e: Broadsides, Swarmlord etc.

I would suggest that alongside the so called 'plasma spam environment' which is 6th edition, another equally problematic issue for terminators now is the weight of fire which new codices are able to put out.
A DA Dakka banner, Tau ethereal/ fireblade buffed firewarrior squad or perhaps the new bolter drill space marines all put out significantly more firepower per point than previous editions (maybe excluding an IG blob using FRFSRF)

Now, I know a lot of people aren't into math hammer, but in this case it really does put things into perspective.

Consider that, when shot at by a bs 4 bolter:

A standard marine in power armour will die 11.1% of the time,
A terminator will die 5.5% of the time.

If we take a 5 man terminator squad, then it is not much more durable than a 10 man tac squad (obviously taking into account their armour vs ap3 weapons, and their 5++ save), for around 25% greater cost.
Weight of fire will bring these guys down, just as easiliy as any other T4 model if given enough shots, and the the terminators have little to counter this besides a transport (Expensive!) or some specific codex options. (I run DW with the FNP banner which helps slightly.)

This further limits the effective use of terminators. As a beatstick, they may work, but getting them to the right place has become more difficult this edition imo.

It worked for me to drop them on that which is supposed to hunt them. Against Eldar e.g. the opponent was relying on Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent. I concentrated fire on the serpent and dropped it and then the combi-plasma from the deep striked Termis wiped them out. Sure, he killed them (with DA and Wraithlord) but that took him 3 turns, I took the WL and half of the DA with me and those units couldn't do what they were supposed to do (like moving on my cultists). I wasn't unhappy about my 5 Termis in that game.

 Murenius wrote:
It worked for me to drop them on that which is supposed to hunt them. Against Eldar e.g. the opponent was relying on Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent. I concentrated fire on the serpent and dropped it and then the combi-plasma from the deep striked Termis wiped them out. Sure, he killed them (with DA and Wraithlord) but that took him 3 turns, I took the WL and half of the DA with me and those units couldn't do what they were supposed to do (like moving on my cultists). I wasn't unhappy about my 5 Termis in that game.

Nice in theory, but there are way too many examples where this is a bad idea if you don't wipe the unit in one go, which is a problem when a lot of these units have decent saves of their own. For instance - D-Scythe Wraithguard (or even cannons) are likely to have survivors what with T6 and a 3+. TH/SS Termies will survive anything other Termies throw at them with ease and smack them down in return. Mega-Nobz will survive your firepower and be able to charge in their own turn, and while everyone with AP2 is striking at I1 together, the Mega-Nobz are both cheaper and will get more attacks off, so you come out worse. Incubi have AP2 weapon options but their 3+ means you aren't guaranteed to get rid of them just by looking at them like with most DE units. The list goes on...

5 Termis give 10 S7 AP2 shots. Vs the cited T6 3+ units that will be 4-5 unsaved wounds. That will down 5 Wraithguards. Sure, not 10, but it would be more fair to compare that to 10 Termis. Point-wise I mean.

 Murenius wrote:
5 Termis give 10 S7 AP2 shots. Vs the cited T6 3+ units that will be 4-5 unsaved wounds. That will down 5 Wraithguards. Sure, not 10, but it would be more fair to compare that to 10 Termis. Point-wise I mean.

Ahh, I've just seen you're talking about combi-plasma Termies - yes, these are worthwhile. Chaos or Space Wolves, right? Problem is, it's quite clear the original poster is asking about vanilla Marines. Nothing they have puts out that much high AP firepower.

Yeah, you can't think about termies as being muzzle to muzzle foot sloggers. Termies will always look bad in that light. You've got to assume that they're deepstriking, and attacking units they know they can beat (or else they wouldn't deepstrike there).

Well after a long time playing Dark Eldar and Deamons (my go to Tourney winning list) I decided to do a Thousand sons army. I wanted to run termies, specially with 4+ invul from Mark of Tzeentch but could not find a cheap effective delivery system, as i was trying to avoid a land raider and deepstrike is tough with no guarantee hit system.. Then i read a little deeper.. How do i get Ahriman who gets 4 powers, 3 witch and 9 termies with combi plasmas fast before getting wiped out or even taking a handful of deaths.

Then it hit me, Ahriman infiltrates D3 units, so I decided to take a Bastion, drop it center of board (well on my half anyway, 23 15/16") Make it a 9x9 building (ill be using a pyramid to match my theme) as per the rules. Right in the rules it says being deployed in a building you are not in line of sight, so you infiltrate the termies into the bastion as you are like 12 and a fraction of a hair away. Also have the door facing your opponent, you could actually have as many doors as you like as per the rules. Anyway First turn you walk out and you are 6" into your opponents half of the table edge, if he moved close you would be in double plasma tab range not to mention charge range...

With the new space marines book coming out just hope for some sort of character or doctrine that gives you HQ infiltrate. ( I know some people say ICs with infiltrate dont confer it to their unit as for deployment rules ..blah blah blah, lots of tourneys in my area in the northeast read that rule the other way and allow it. Infact all of them allow it. i guess if your local TO says it doesnt work that way. Just convert your guys to chaos and run Huron or Ahriman, their warlords trait allows you to infiltrate D3 units. (Maybe Shriek will get the same rule)

Anyway, think outside the box. I rarely post anything on these boards as far a tactics or list, as i hate to see them get hijacked and molested. But if people really wanna try a Ahriman List, good luck... its been a real challenge my first few games so far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further thought, enemies cannot infiltrate into your bastions so if they have infiltrates and win the roll they cant take your building. They can go right up against it, but again a medium building is 9" by 9" , just try to be out of line of site, 12: away and you will still get a first turn charge.

Also i was running 2 helldrakes today to try it out... when the bastion went down it didnt say what happened to my comms really.. The rules say all weapons are destroyed with a total collapse.. but comms relay is battlefield debris, seems funny if it just falls to the ground yet still works...But i could not find any clear ruling that states it gets destroyed when the bastion gets destroyed. I mean you dont even move the bastion off the table if it gets destroyed... its just impassible. With a comms relay on top...

 Super Ready wrote:

Ahh, I've just seen you're talking about combi-plasma Termies - yes, these are worthwhile. Chaos or Space Wolves, right? Problem is, it's quite clear the original poster is asking about vanilla Marines. Nothing they have puts out that much high AP firepower.

Yeah, CSM in my case. Didn't know vanilla marines can't take combi-plasma. In that case I can't think of too much uses either.

You can't charge out of a bastion (no assault ramp), but you could double-tap stuff.

The problem is that now you have a bunch of terminators out in front of everything else, wherein they'll just get killed the next turn. I don't see why you'd need to spend the points on a bastion to have this happen.

I play an all TDA Ghostwing at 1500pts, 26-27 models, Libby w/ Homer, Mordrak and one 10man GKT in deep strike reserves, table has no less than 25% terrain, most of time 50% of more coverage. Still works fine even in todays meta, the only thing I've changed is more Hammers on my GKT.

Success = play better, play aggressively, dictate the pace of the game.

SJ

Close combat. Nuff-said.

You are facing horde?: Lightning claws boys! Put them in a LR and ride em up since they dont have SS

You are facing MEQs?: TH/SS! Land raider them or march them, they do have SS

Facing light AV?: Powerfists! Charge in with stormbolters, assault cannon/ML and punch punch away.

Facing heavy AV?: LOOK UNDER YOUR CHAIR! CHAINFISTS FOR EVERYONE! Destroy that AV14 spam in two turns!

You can always Deepstrike if you don't want to use a LR, BUT remember, you can use LR as dedicated transport for one normal termy squad AND one assault termy squad.

Grav guns look like they're going to slap TEQ spam lists into oblivion. Holy crap are those guns gonna hurt.

 Kain wrote:
Grav guns look like they're going to slap TEQ spam lists into oblivion. Holy crap are those guns gonna hurt.

I just hope theyre expensive enough to discourage having more than a couple. Or they arent even remotely as strong as im hearing.
Im hearing they fire a ton of shots and their To Wound is whatever the armor save is of the target. Thats insane. The amount of shots sounds worse than tau plasma spams and thats bad enough lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Grav guns look like they're going to slap TEQ spam lists into oblivion. Holy crap are those guns gonna hurt.

I just hope theyre expensive enough to discourage having more than a couple. Or they arent even remotely as strong as im hearing.
Im hearing they fire a ton of shots and their To Wound is whatever the armor save is of the target. Thats insane. The amount of shots sounds worse than tau plasma spams and thats bad enough lol

2/3 Salvo for basic troopers means joe schmoe marine squad can gut a Termi squad in one salvo.

Centurions...

Well hope you weren't too fond of your wing lists. If I'm not wrong, you could use three to kill off Abaddon and his wing for half or even less points. If they're twin linked instead of two shooting, that's 15 rerolling shots that wound on twos and ignore your armor save. At BS4 pretty much all of them are going to hit, the invulnerable save is not going to be saving many of them, and unless you brought a full termi squad with Topknot, they just stripped your entire escort.

If they can fire the guns independantly then three of them will pretty much wipe a ten man squad and abaddon off the table in one go.

Meganobz, with their similar pricing and second wound, may actually do a lot better. Sure it'd still be better to use Boyz who will laugh at the Grav weapons, but I think they'll do substantially better than the Centurions.

But otherwise, MEQ and TEQ armies are going to have a very bad day.

Grav guns are going to be very much like plasma in terms of effectiveness against TEQ. No Gets Hot! is a bonus to the owning player, but of little consequence to you because that 1 was a miss anyway. If you're building a TAC list, you're not giving everyone plasma already anyway, so you're not about to drop it all in favour of gravs - that'd leave you woefully short on flamers for mobs and melta for vehicles. Instead you're probably going to just drop one or two in.

On the other hand, if you know you're facing a MEQ/TEQ player, and you're inclined to list build as a result, you're already taking plasma and the requisite power weapons. So there's not going to be THAT much difference.

Short version - it's a nice addition that seems scary at first but shouldn't actually upset the meta much.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Play against Tyranids a lot, we have no shooting better than AP 4 apart from psychic powers.

Or Orks. We have no shooting lower than AP4 except the Shokk Attack Gun (which you should be honoured to be slain by) and the Kustom-Mega Blasta, which is almost as likely to kill my Ork firing it than it is the Terminator I'm pointing it at.