Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What size unit? What upgrades and their role? MSU or one big bus for a noble or lord?

10+ size with BOtWD (so as to laugh at Magical cannons % Magic) + Lord and Noble with Giant/Ogre blade style so you can continue chopping after the charge
It's the only unit I fear when playing Skavens

In what sized list do you think that unit is not too big? 2400pts?

I seen it run a few times at 2500pts, usually at a total body count of 12 or 15 (including characters)
Oh and the Champion often loves a magic weapon, even something as simple a a Sword of Might, useful with his ASF WS5 A3 profile
Also I would run the characters with Dragon armour and items to go down to 1+ save (Ench shield, Dragon Helm), the Ward save is not essential IMO as you got the 2+ Ward against most nasty attacks

As I said previously, as a Skaven player, I really only see me dealing with them by tarpitting with larges buses of Slaves while hoping to land 3 Wither on them, that's about the only thing I can do
Of course, more punchy / gunline (but then you're quickly in CC) armies can hurt them with sheer brute Strength to punch through the armour, but their high speed let you more or less dictate their position on the field. Just don't let them be chaffed for the whole game

I use them at 2400.

I run a 1+ rerollable lord with the giant blade, a BSB with the star lance & Great Weapon, a noble with a lance, a level 4 beasts mage, and 14 Dragon princes with FC and the BoTWD.

The rest of the list is chaff, or archers.


Or units of 6 with musicians.

Small units (5 or 6) with a Mucisian work well. They still pack a punch on the charge, but are fairly cheap all things considered. Your opponent will likely ignore them too. It's a fantastic unit to have on the flank.

Otherwise, you want a bus of around 15 models with FC and the BotWD (the banner is always necessary though). I'd also include a Lvl2 High Elf Mage, because High Magic works really well with the DP's 6++ save. I'd also stick a combat character in there too. In fact, you can really go to town and stick several in there, but one works fine.

I would include a champion in a small dragon Prince squadron, on a price per attack the upgrade is worthwhile.

I have a friend who is yet to pass a ld test with his dragon princes, not even a re-roll.

I almost always run a unit of 5-6 with sb and mus. More often than not I put the banner of eternal flame with them as well.

Re-roll-able str 5-6 (beast magic) on the charge does wonders at removing monsters like chimeras and terrorgiests.

Sometimes with champion (at 6 models or more) for the challenge potential and maybe an ogre blade, star lance, or other magic item just for kicks!

YOu use them as a mobile hammer with BoTWD and a few combat characters. I really like Beast and Metal with them.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I use them at 2400.

I run a 1+ rerollable lord with the giant blade, a BSB with the star lance & Great Weapon, a noble with a lance, a level 4 beasts mage, and 14 Dragon princes with FC and the BoTWD.

Not high magic?

I would have thought that the base 6+ ward of the DP made them an ideal candidate for the lore attribute.

I can see what that unit can do with Savage Beast on them, though.

Why the BotWD? They already ignore Metal and Fire spells, and most other magic missiles and many direct damages should ping off armour and ward, not? Is it just a precaution against magic weapons/attacks and WLC's?

Putting the BotWD on Princes completely stops Daemons and Skavens from harming them (all Skaven toyz are magical), except maybe a HPA without spikes ...
It protects them from most Drwaven machines
It protects the characters and champion from Death Magic (common)
It protects from S7 banishment (not that rare)
It protects from the WoC DP
It protects from all big nasty characters with magical weapons

It's just so good for 50 pts that there's no reason to pass on it

 ferret61 wrote:
I have a friend who is yet to pass a ld test with his dragon princes, not even a re-roll.

Plenty of odd stories like that crop up.

The one I get to see a lot is the phenomenon where horses cause more wounds than Empire Knights.

My friend with these dragon princes was playing me once and had taken Tyrion to ne his general, but forgot to take a bsb.
And tye first turn, I caused enough wounds for a 25% check, anf he failed on an 11. So naturally, we said that since Tyrion was in the unit, he could have a reroll. And he rolled a 12. And then another 12 off the board. On the first turn.

I swear we never laughed harder.

I love seeing large units of Dragon Princes. It gives my Executioners something to do...

I am going to toss a vote to running 5 man squads as flank support and general mischief makers. I play at low points though (usually 1k range) so I can definitely see running a bigger squad at higher points.
I'd rate command elements as Banner>Drakemaster>Musician.
It is fun to put magic weapons on the Drakemaster though, he can really add some punch and make even a 5 man unit a real monster.

jouso wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I use them at 2400.

I run a 1+ rerollable lord with the giant blade, a BSB with the star lance & Great Weapon, a noble with a lance, a level 4 beasts mage, and 14 Dragon princes with FC and the BoTWD.

Not high magic?

I would have thought that the base 6+ ward of the DP made them an ideal candidate for the lore attribute.

I can see what that unit can do with Savage Beast on them, though.

Three ways to run the bus.

1. Beast magic. Wildform and Savage Beast make it horrific in combat and give you an abundance of S10 attacks.

2. Life. The T7, 2+ armour is hard to run through, but you limit yourself to having to break your opponent in 1 round.

3. High. The 3+ ward on the princes is pretty good, but has the same limitation as the life bus.

Savage Beast does squat for the unit itself. It only boost characters, and even then it only boosts one character unless you go for the big version.

 Vulcan wrote:
Savage Beast does squat for the unit itself. It only boost characters, and even then it only boosts one character unless you go for the big version.

The boosted version gives you 6 S9, and 13 S10 on the charge, which you should be getting because of your redirectors. High elf combat characters are horrifically efficient due to their rerolls vs most things and their high WS.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
Savage Beast does squat for the unit itself. It only boost characters, and even then it only boosts one character unless you go for the big version.

The boosted version gives you 6 S9, and 13 S10 on the charge, which you should be getting because of your redirectors. High elf combat characters are horrifically efficient due to their rerolls vs most things and their high WS.

My issue with this is that, if you're largely concentrating on making the characters do the killing, the Dragon Princes become more of a delivery system. In that case, why not just take Silver Helms who are almost as effective in delivering and are cheaper and take up your core tax.

You would shift the BotWD onto the BSB and the Star Lance to the regular Noble, and have the same effect. Unlike usually, the BSB is really no less vulnerable than a standard bearer since Death snipes won't work thanks to our friend the BotWD and the BSB won't be dropped by allocated hits in combat since, well, with a unit like that, there shouldn't really be much left to attack.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
Savage Beast does squat for the unit itself. It only boost characters, and even then it only boosts one character unless you go for the big version.

The boosted version gives you 6 S9, and 13 S10 on the charge, which you should be getting because of your redirectors. High elf combat characters are horrifically efficient due to their rerolls vs most things and their high WS.

How? Savage Beast only works on characters. Period. Even the big version only works on characters. The unit DOES NOT GET THE BOOST from Savage Beast.

I'm not arguing that Savage Beast isn't wonderful for characters. But since it doesn't affect the unit at all, you could run five characters with Savage Beast in a unit of skaven slaves and get the same result.

 Vulcan wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
Savage Beast does squat for the unit itself. It only boost characters, and even then it only boosts one character unless you go for the big version.

The boosted version gives you 6 S9, and 13 S10 on the charge, which you should be getting because of your redirectors. High elf combat characters are horrifically efficient due to their rerolls vs most things and their high WS.

How? Savage Beast only works on characters.

Yes, and your front rank has three of them in, if not more.

 Vulcan wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
Savage Beast does squat for the unit itself. It only boost characters, and even then it only boosts one character unless you go for the big version.

The boosted version gives you 6 S9, and 13 S10 on the charge, which you should be getting because of your redirectors. High elf combat characters are horrifically efficient due to their rerolls vs most things and their high WS.

How? Savage Beast only works on characters. Period. Even the big version only works on characters. The unit DOES NOT GET THE BOOST from Savage Beast.

I'm not arguing that Savage Beast isn't wonderful for characters. But since it doesn't affect the unit at all, you could run five characters with Savage Beast in a unit of skaven slaves and get the same result.

Lance prince. Star Lance BSB. Giant blade prince.

3 S6. 3 S7 ignoring armour. 4 S7 normal.

With Savage Beast, that becomes 6 S9, 6 S10 ignoring armour, 7 S10 normal attacks.

Ah. My mistak on the damage output of the characters alone.

At that point why even bother with Dragon Princes? As has been mentioned you can run Silver Helms instead, for fewer points and out of your core requirements, to much the same effect. In a standard 5-wide bus they only loose two S5 attacks to the Dragon Princes.

 Vulcan wrote:
Ah. My mistak on the damage output of the characters alone.

At that point why even bother with Dragon Princes? As has been mentioned you can run Silver Helms instead, for fewer points and out of your core requirements, to much the same effect. In a standard 5-wide bus they only loose two S5 attacks to the Dragon Princes.

Well the other benefits are a magic banner for the unit. The Drakemaster can carry a character loadout of magical weapons and armor. Also Dps start with a 6++ ward and a 2++ against fire. When you run into the banner of the Eternal Flame unit It gets a bit funny.

If you are dumb enough to throw your BoEF unit at Dragon Princes, you get what you deserve. I wouldn't base a strategy on it, though.

I see your point about the magic banner, though... doubtless the BotWD, of course. I got to deal with one of those a game or two back.

5 harpies and 50 Executioners saw them off just fine. But then I did sucker him into charging the harpies (it was either that or wait for his Phoenix Guard to move, as I had him penned in against the PG).

 Vulcan wrote:
If you are dumb enough to throw your BoEF unit at Dragon Princes, you get what you deserve. I wouldn't base a strategy on it, though.

I see your point about the magic banner, though... doubtless the BotWD, of course. I got to deal with one of those a game or two back.

5 harpies and 50 Executioners saw them off just fine. But then I did sucker him into charging the harpies (it was either that or wait for his Phoenix Guard to move, as I had him penned in against the PG).

True its rare for someone to come at Dragon Princes with BoEF but if you play all comers lists especially in troll and Nurgle heavy enviroments (Like mine.) It ill happen then its just a matter of getting them where your opponent doesn't want them.

Also these guys are not an all everything unit they are a survivable small footprint monsterhunter and flanking unit.

 Vulcan wrote:
Ah. My mistak on the damage output of the characters alone.

At that point why even bother with Dragon Princes? As has been mentioned you can run Silver Helms instead, for fewer points and out of your core requirements, to much the same effect. In a standard 5-wide bus they only loose two S5 attacks to the Dragon Princes.

Because I'd rather have a decent BSB and the BoTWD.

And with princes I can get the second lot of S7 in as well as a sword of anti heroes.

And princes deny rerolls to Silver helms.

And have a ward save as standard

And a 2+ ward vs flaming.

And more attacks.

And a higher WS.

And a higher base Ld, admittedly, this doesn't matter as much,

At the cost of how many more points spent on this unit, AND having to spend still more points on your core tax...

I still say you could stash those characters with that boost into a unit of Skaven slaves and get much the same results.