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Space Marine librarians can't get divination. That's my thoughts. And your chances of getting iron arm are not good on a level 2 psyker.

My impressions of the new SM codex were mostly negative but not becuase of any huge grievence .. it was more because the codex as a whole failed to address the issues I seem to suffer from when playing SM. I play Primarily Eldar, then SM, and I've recently started working up my CSM army.

What this codex has done for me is basically kick SM back to 3rd spot on my list of "likely to play" armies.

Point reduction on Tac Marines was not good, it was expected. ML is still laughably overpriced. Tac Marines should be able to use Heavy Flamers... they have officially released a model for that in the Sterngaurd Squad which could be easy to proxy, but the rules clearly say that the HF is for Sterngaurd only. WTF?.

Grav Weapons are largely useless IMO since they don't offer anything new to the list. Between the Bolter/Plasma/Metla options Tac Marines can still take down whatever you kit them for, I see no reason why the grav gun is preferable to any of those options.

Centurions are silly looking IMO but wouldn't really be so bad if they were less point heavy. That same role would have been better filled IMO by 6 Terminators instead of 3 bigger guys with 2w each, though the weapon loadouts would have to be figured in.

The Cptain got a nice boost and I like that he is not affordable and won't get waffle-stomped by other HQ's (as badly).



But what really killed this for me... is that they did absolutely nothing to fix the massivegap in assault play in 6e. SM players have even less reason to take assault units (which are the most visceral and intense part of the lore). The Vanguard Veterans rules are ridiculous now... I can't fathom anyone using them for their cost. The fact that all chapters can use Storm Ravens is cool, but hardly a fix.. assaulting as any army other than the Eldar/Dark Eldar will still just get you dead.

I don't have the new codex yet but they don't have access to divination?

And I agree that your chances of getting it are low but there is still a chance. =)

That's quite ironic.
Many people actually think Grav is beginning to look overpowered and you don't see a reason why it's preferable over other weapons?

@Kemp, no they cannot take Divination.
It's the only reason why I haven't dumped all my BA-models into a big can of paint.

You don't have to repaint.

You missed landspeeder storms = dedicated transports. Do Tau Blacksun filters protect from blindness?

Grav Rifles on bikes is going to put out a lot of hurt while still being able to shoot up hordes alright if need be. A relentless Grav weapon is good stuff indeed.

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have to repaint.
You missed landspeeder storms = dedicated transports. Do Tau Blacksun filters protect from blindness?

They do :(
And I won't repaint them, as most of the models are 50+ percent black already.

My plan is swap between Ravenguard (to keep that BA-feeling alive till the codex) and White Scars.

However, I'm not convinced that the codex is really a match for Eldar/Tau at all. The new toys are nice, but I think ultimately futile. GW needs to do more maths. But GW hates the maths, because they can't handwaive the maths away, because the maths never lie in the end. As long as you ask the right questions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have to repaint.
You missed landspeeder storms = dedicated transports. Do Tau Blacksun filters protect from blindness?

They do :(
And I won't repaint them, as most of the models are 50+ percent black already.

My plan is swap between Ravenguard (to keep that BA-feeling alive till the codex) and White Scars.

Awesome; they gave the storm useless equipment. At least it doesn't have a top, so my guys can get out and beat face. Seriously, BA should just saw the top off all their Rhinos and tank hits to the top of the tank with their power armor.

What makes the Tau and Eldar so strong?
Tau => Riptides and ML's.
Eldar => ???

I think the new Thunderfire cannons are great to take out those Pathfinders while the Grav-spam takes out Riptides.

Edit: What unit would you want to blind?

I want to blind all of them. The whole army if I could I feel that marines can take on BS 1 Tau.

You can blind the Markerlight-granting units?
That way they have to shoot at BS3 and cannot ignore cover (your bikes LOVE that)

Okay so has noone noticed annihilators are down 25pts?????????????????????

ANNIHILATE THEMMMMMM

Uh...guys I might have missed something but on p.127 there is a chapter relic called "Standard of the Ascendant" but I don't see a point cost listed for it in any of the entries at the back of the book, the reference page, or the armory list before the entries...

...could someone tell me how many points it is?

Check the Command Squad for the points
It's a Relic that cannot be taken by the usual 'Relic-carriers'.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Yea, against tau pathfinders are target numero uno.

There's a Thunderfire cannon for that. S5 ignores cover and now has Barrage so it doesn't need line of sight. Roast some Pathfinders turn 1, then roast some Fire Warriors next turn.

Yeah, that would work. Assuming you go first, of course. And you don't scatter too bad. And they don't use marker drones. Pathfinders are pretty weak outside of cover.

And provided the Pathfinders aren't on the first floor of a ruin.

We don't use multiple terrain buildings in our meta except around the deployment areas, and you're not going to see pathfinders back that far.

Martel732 wrote:
I want to blind all of them. The whole army if I could I feel that marines can take on BS 1 Tau.

Blacksun filters give immunity to Blind per model. So suits are immune but a Ethereal in a Kroot unit does not pass that immunity to the unit like it does night vision.

Cerberus launchers are pretty good for suppressing small arms fire and marker lights.

Do fire warriors have blacksun standard now?

Do not believe so. The Shavererer whatever can take one but not the whole squad. Even if they could no one does so.

No!
Unless my memory fails me, only battlesuits have that.

 En Excelsis wrote:

But what really killed this for me... is that they did absolutely nothing to fix the massivegap in assault play in 6e. SM players have even less reason to take assault units (which are the most visceral and intense part of the lore). The Vanguard Veterans rules are ridiculous now... I can't fathom anyone using them for their cost. The fact that all chapters can use Storm Ravens is cool, but hardly a fix.. assaulting as any army other than the Eldar/Dark Eldar will still just get you dead.

I agree with your statement, although I would like to add that I think C:SM are still the only codex that have a viable assault dread in the Ironclad. Side armor 13 is key.

Not amazing, mind you, but viable.

 En Excelsis wrote:
Grav Weapons are largely useless IMO since they don't offer anything new to the list. Between the Bolter/Plasma/Metla options Tac Marines can still take down whatever you kit them for, I see no reason why the grav gun is preferable to any of those options.

Do Bikes with Melta or Plasma threaten Wave Serpents (the new meta) with shots that ignore both its cover and its shield? Do Bikes with Melta or Plasma put out 9 shots that wound a Riptide on a 2+ with no AS? Are 2-3 Melta or Plasma Guns enough to handle a Tyrant or DP with Iron Arm up?

Your problem is you are looking at the Grav Gun on its weakest platform. Nobody will take Grav on Tacs, everyone will take Grav on Bikes, so that's what you should be looking at.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Do Bikes with Melta or Plasma threaten Wave Serpents (the new meta) with shots that ignore both its cover and its shield? Do Bikes with Melta or Plasma put out 9 shots that wound a Riptide on a 2+ with no AS? Are 2-3 Melta or Plasma Guns enough to handle a Tyrant or DP with Iron Arm up?

Your problem is you are looking at the Grav Gun on its weakest platform. Nobody will take Grav on Tacs, everyone will take Grav on Bikes, so that's what you should be looking at.

I agree with you on the platform issue but I highly doubt that the Grav Gun ignores cover. It certainly doesn't for non-vehicle models. It does however ignore the shield. It's RAW at its worst if you play it like that.

Do Bikes with Melta or Plasma threaten Wave Serpents (the new meta) with shots that ignore both its cover and its shield? Do Bikes with Melta or Plasma put out 9 shots that wound a Riptide on a 2+ with no AS? Are 2-3 Melta or Plasma Guns enough to handle a Tyrant or DP with Iron Arm up?

Your problem is you are looking at the Grav Gun on its weakest platform. Nobody will take Grav on Tacs, everyone will take Grav on Bikes, so that's what you should be looking at.

A better question is, do grav weapons actually threaten Serpents?

For 1188 points, one can get 6 units of 8 bikes (48 total bikes) each toting 2 Grav Guns. At 18", these bikes put out 36 shots. On average, that is just about 24 hits. Against a vehicle, that is 4 hull points before cover.

That means, 1200 points of Grav-spam bikers is averaging a Serpent a turn.

Sure, 558 points gets you 6x3 bikes (18 total bikes) toting the same amount of Grav Guns. At the same time, that means one is relying on 18 T5 MEQ for scoring.

My point is, I believe Grav spam is becoming quickly overrated on paper.

Yeah, Gravity weapons do kill vehicles, but they're way overpriced for doing it.

Literally the only thing they do efficiently is kill things with good armor saves. Otherwise they're fairly meh against vehicles all things considered.

Yeah I Grav was never intended to solve all problems. It's a niche weapon just like Plasma and Melta.

If you combined Grav with say some DSing Legion of the Damned, Las/ML Cent w/ Tank Hunter then you are seriously threatening serpent spam.

 JGrand wrote:
Do Bikes with Melta or Plasma threaten Wave Serpents (the new meta) with shots that ignore both its cover and its shield? Do Bikes with Melta or Plasma put out 9 shots that wound a Riptide on a 2+ with no AS? Are 2-3 Melta or Plasma Guns enough to handle a Tyrant or DP with Iron Arm up?

If your WS army is facing 48 bikes, you have issues other than just grav guns.

Your bigger concern are the long range elements that will be shooting your army while your going after the bikes, which you have to do, or you will eat a bunch of krak grenades on turn 2

Sure, but I'd be more worried about an army with a mix of plasma, melta, and some grav then one which only has Gravity weapons.

 JGrand wrote:
A better question is, do grav weapons actually threaten Serpents?
For 1188 points, one can get 6 units of 8 bikes (48 total bikes) each toting 2 Grav Guns. At 18", these bikes put out 36 shots. On average, that is just about 24 hits. Against a vehicle, that is 4 hull points before cover.
That means, 1200 points of Grav-spam bikers is averaging a Serpent a turn.
Sure, 558 points gets you 6x3 bikes (18 total bikes) toting the same amount of Grav Guns. At the same time, that means one is relying on 18 T5 MEQ for scoring.
My point is, I believe Grav spam is becoming quickly overrated on paper.

I don't think you get the point of them.
Each unit will put out 4 hits, that's a 2/3th chance to remove a Hullpoint and Immobilize a transport.
At that point it's a sitting duck since it cannot Jink anymore. Any second 6 will kill the vehicle since it's immobilized!
Against "one vehicle", that 1200 points of shooting would do 7HP of damage!

And if you want a vehicle dead, I would prefer the CCS that shoots 15 shots and has a great chance to kill a vehicle in one shooting.
After which they will assault and annihilate the unit that was in it.

Glocknall wrote:
I agree with you on the platform issue but I highly doubt that the Grav Gun ignores cover. It certainly doesn't for non-vehicle models. It does however ignore the shield. It's RAW at its worst if you play it like that.

How is it at its worst? It is plain as day, no gaminess, and even makes perfect sense from a fluff point of view. What are cover and a shield going to do against getting dragged into the ground?

 JGrand wrote:
For 1188 points, one can get 6 units of 8 bikes (48 total bikes) each toting 2 Grav Guns. At 18", these bikes put out 36 shots. On average, that is just about 24 hits. Against a vehicle, that is 4 hull points before cover.

I suggest you read the rules for vehicles getting cover and read the rules for Graviton weapons; those Serpents are getting no cover and no shields. They also don't need to kill the Serpent as getting a single 6 Immobilizes it and thus nueters it for the game, as it can no longer move and thus gets no Holo-Field bonus, and will be forced to keep its Shields up if it wants to survive, reducing its firepower significantly.

The realistic math is a Bike Squad with two Grav Guns and a Combi-Grav Immobolizes a Serpent on average per turn. That's good enough as dead for Serpents.

Also JGrand, as Kangodo said above, we're not necessarily talking about spamming it here, but the Grav Command Squad with perhaps a back-up Grav Bike Squad is something that will threaten Serpents. I agree that going all Grav would be a mistake.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
I agree with you on the platform issue but I highly doubt that the Grav Gun ignores cover. It certainly doesn't for non-vehicle models. It does however ignore the shield. It's RAW at its worst if you play it like that.

How is it at its worst? It is plain as day, no gaminess, and even makes perfect sense from a fluff point of view. What are cover and a shield going to do against getting dragged into the ground?

So how do you rationalize that non-vehicle models get a cover save and vehicles do not rules wise.? Ignores Cover USR has similar wording and no TO I know says that Ignores Cover doesn't affect vehicular cover saves. I do believe that the serpent shield does not work however.