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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

This should make for a fun discussion

Source

Iowa grants permits for blind residents to carry guns in public
Sheriffs and advocates are divided on whether that's a good idea.

Here’s some news that has law enforcement officials and lawmakers scratching their heads:

Iowa is granting permits to acquire or carry guns in public to people who are legally or completely blind.

No one questions the legality of the permits. State law does not allow sheriffs to deny an Iowan the right to carry a weapon based on physical ability.

The quandary centers squarely on public safety. Advocates for the disabled and Iowa law enforcement officers disagree over whether it’s a good idea for visually disabled Iowans to have weapons.

On one side: People such as Cedar County Sheriff Warren Wethington, who demonstrated for the Register how blind people can be taught to shoot guns. And Jane Hudson, executive director of Disability Rights Iowa, who says blocking visually impaired people from the right to obtain weapon permits would violate the Americans with Disabilities Act. That federal law generally prohibits different treatment based on disabilities.

On the other side: People such as Dubuque County Sheriff Don Vrotsos, who said he wouldn’t issue a permit to someone who is blind. And Patrick Clancy, superintendent of the Iowa Braille and Sight Saving School, who says guns may be a rare exception to his philosophy that blind people can participate fully in life.

Private gun ownership — even hunting — by visually impaired Iowans is nothing new. But the practice of visually impaired residents legally carrying firearms in public became widely possible thanks to gun permit changes that took effect in Iowa in 2011.

“It seems a little strange, but the way the law reads, we can’t deny them (a permit) just based on that one thing,” said Sgt. Jana Abens, a spokeswoman for the Polk County sheriff’s office, referring to a visual disability.

Polk County officials say they’ve issued weapons permits to at least three people who can’t legally drive and were unable to read the application forms or had difficulty doing so because of visual impairments.

And sheriffs in three other counties — Jasper, Kossuth and Delaware — say they have granted permits to residents who they believe have severe visual impairments.

“I’m not an expert in vision,” Delaware Sheriff John LeClere said. “At what point do vision problems have a detrimental effect to fire a firearm? If you see nothing but a blurry mass in front of you, then I would say you probably shouldn’t be shooting something.”

One county sheriff shows how to train visually impaired

In one Iowa county, blind residents who want weapons would likely receive special training.

Wethington, the Cedar County sheriff, has a legally blind daughter who plans to obtain a permit to carry when she turns 21 in about two years. He demonstrated for the Register how he would train blind people who want to carry a gun.

“If sheriffs spent more time trying to keep guns out of criminals’ hands and not people with disabilities, their time would be more productive,” Wethington told the Register as he and his daughter took turns practice shooting with a semi-automatic handgun on private property in rural Cedar County.

The number of visually impaired or blind Iowans who can legally carry weapons in public is unknown because that information is not collected by the state or county sheriffs who issue the permits.

The Register became aware that a handful of Iowans with visual impairments can carry weapons in public because county sheriffs and their staffs recalled issuing those permits. Sheriff officials in most of the cases said they were uncertain about the extent of the visual impairments.

Clancy, superintendent of the Iowa Braille and Sight Saving School, said the range of sight among people who are classified as legally blind varies greatly. He believes there are situations where such applicants can safely handle a gun.

However, he also expressed concerns.

“Although people who are blind can participate fully in nearly all life’s experiences, there are some things, like the operation of a weapon, that may very well be an exception,” Clancy said.

It’s an issue that musician Stevie Wonder, who has been blind since birth, called attention to in January.

“Imagine me with a gun. It’s just crazy,” Wonder told CNN while calling for reforms to what he has previously called “ridiculous” gun laws.

Some states do consider vision in issuing permits

The Gun Control Act of 1968 and other federal laws do not prohibit blind people from owning guns. But unlike Iowa, some states have laws that spell out whether visually impaired people can obtain weapon permits.

Vision requirements are either directly or indirectly part of the weapon permit criteria in some surrounding states.

In Nebraska, for example, applicants for a permit to carry a concealed handgun must provide “proof of vision” by either presenting a valid state driver’s license or a statement by an eye doctor that the person meets vision requirements set for a typical vehicle operator’s license.

Other states have indirect requirements that could — but don’t automatically — disqualify people who are blind. That includes Missouri and Minnesota, where applicants must complete a live fire test, which means they have to shoot and hit a target.

A 50-state database of gun permit requirements published by USACarry.com also shows that South Carolina has a law that requires proof of vision before a person is approved for a weapons permit.

Wisconsin, like Iowa, has no visual restrictions on gun permit applicants. Illinois lawmakers enacted a concealed weapons law in July, but permits have not yet been issued.

Illinois’ qualifications don’t specifically require a visual test, but applicants must complete firearms training that includes range instruction.

The National Federation of the Blind does not track states that require vision tests as part of weapon permit processes and has not taken an official stand on the issue. But its members are generally opposed to such laws, said Chris Danielsen, director of public relations for the group.

“There’s no reason solely on the (basis) of blindness that a blind person shouldn’t be allowed to carry a weapon,” Danielsen said. “Presumably they’re going to have enough sense not to use a weapon in a situation where they would endanger other people, just like we would expect other people to have that common sense.”

Iowa requires training for anyone who is issued a permit to carry a weapon in public, but that requirement can be satisfied through an online course that does not include any hands-on instruction or a shooting test.

A provision in Iowa’s law allows sheriffs to deny a permit if probable cause exists to believe that the person is likely to use the weapon in such a way that it would endanger himself or others.

Many sheriffs noted, however, that the provision relates to specific documented actions, and applicants who appealed their cases would likely win.

Vrotsos, the Dubuque County sheriff, did not know whether any blind people had applied for permits in his county, but said he wouldn’t hesitate to deny them.

“We do not track these applicants, but ... if I knew the person was blind ... a permit would not be issued, and this person would then have the right to appeal,” Vrotsos said.

But Hudson, executive director of Disability Rights Iowa, believes changing the state law to deny blind people or others with physical disabilities the right to carry arms would violate federal disability law.

Part of the Americans with Disabilities Act requires a public entity to conduct an individualized analysis to make a reasonable judgment before denying a service. Hudson believes someone could successfully challenge Nebraska’s proof of vision requirement as illegal.

“The fact that you can’t drive a car doesn’t mean you can’t go to a shooting range and see a target,” Hudson said.

Other issues cited by Iowa sheriffs
The Des Moines Register earlier this year published reports about Iowa’s 2011 law that requires sheriffs to adopt uniform standards in issuing permits to carry weapons in public. Read about issues cited by Iowa sheriffs, such as gaps in their ability to search a person’s background for mental health problems and their inability to deny permits to sex offenders.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/09 15:24:21


 
   
Made in sa
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dundee, Scotland/Dharahn, Saudi Arabia

I say fine, issue them, but only if they can meet a marksmanship standard.
(Which everyone should be able to meet to get a permit, In my opinion, if you're going to carry, you should be able to hit what you point the thing at)

If the thought of something makes me giggle for longer than 15 seconds, I am to assume that I am not allowed to do it.
item 87, skippys list
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Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

 d-usa wrote:
This should make for a fun discussion
I can't believe you're one to discriminate against the blind like that, d-usa. Being legally blind in Washington State isn't an impediment to getting a drivers license and that's basically piloting a guided missile. Just saying.

Still, the image of Stevie Wonder flailing around, shooting a .38 special at random is a bit comical.
Steve Benen wrote:The blind arming the blind

Earlier in the year, when the debate over gun safety was still a dominant issue on the national stage, musician Stevie Wonder suggested he might try to buy a gun just to help demonstrate the ways in which current laws defy common sense. "Imagine me with a gun," Wonder said. "It's just crazy.

In Iowa, there's apparently some disagreement on just how crazy this would be.
Here's some news that has law enforcement officials and lawmakers scratching their heads: Iowa is granting permits to acquire or carry guns in public to people who are legally or completely blind.

No one questions the legality of the permits. State law does not allow sheriffs to deny an Iowan the right to carry a weapon based on physical ability.

The quandary centers squarely on public safety.
Ya don't say.

The Des Moines Register's report noted quite a few folks in Iowa, including county sheriffs, who argued that there's no reason to discriminate against the blind if Iowans with visual impairments want weapons permits and firearms.

In practical terms, it creates a curious policy landscape: if you're legally blind in Iowa, the state will prohibit you from getting a driver's license and getting behind the wheel. The state will not, however, stop you from buying a loaded assault rifle and carrying a handgun.

This is not, incidentally, an academic exercise about hypothetical scenarios. There are actually Iowans who are too blind to drive but who are nevertheless getting gun permits.

From the DMR piece:
Private gun ownership -- even hunting -- by visually impaired Iowans is nothing new. But the practice of visually impaired residents legally carrying firearms in public became widely possible thanks to gun permit changes that took effect in Iowa in 2011.

"It seems a little strange, but the way the law reads, we can't deny them (a permit) just based on that one thing," said Sgt. Jana Abens, a spokeswoman for the Polk County sheriff's office, referring to a visual disability.

Polk County officials say they've issued weapons permits to at least three people who can't legally drive and were unable to read the application forms or had difficulty doing so because of visual impairments.

And sheriffs in three other counties -- Jasper, Kossuth and Delaware -- say they have granted permits to residents who they believe have severe visual impairments.
For rhetorical purposes, this should help crystalize the debate a bit further. We've reached the point at which opponents of gun reforms not only oppose background checks and support allowing suspected terrorists to buy an arsenal, they're also ready to quite literally arm the blind.

This will not end well.


This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2013/09/09 15:42:22


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Screw that blind master kung fu crap. Now we have blind Dirty Harry!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/09 15:47:02


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Breotan wrote:
Still, the image of Stevie Wonder flailing around, shooting a .38 special at random is a bit comical.

The image of anyone "flailing around, shooting a .38 special at random" is bad, blind or not.

And I have no issue with permits being issued to the blind. The people in the article make it sound like handing a blind person a gun means they'll immediately shoot a random bystander; they're blind, not stupid.

1. Many that are "legally blind" can, in fact, see. Their vision is just so bad that the ADA decides they are blind. It doesn't mean that they can't see a target, just that it would be very vague and blurry. For something like target shooting, I don't see the issue. For something like home defense, knowing your door just got kicked open is all you really need.

2. For the completely blind (as in 0 actual ability to see), there are other ways to find a target. I believe there is a youtube video of a kid doing skateboard tricks who is completely blind. Like many blind people he uses tongue-clicking as a sort of echolocation. If someone can handle skateboarding, they can handle target shooting.

The biggest issue, as with any gun owner, is responsible ownership. No one, sighted or not, should be flailing their gun around "shooting randomly". No one, sighted or not, should be leaving a loaded gun out for anyone to pick up. These are important factors, independent of whether the gun owner can actually see.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/09 15:55:16


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 marv335 wrote:
I say fine, issue them, but only if they can meet a marksmanship standard.
(Which everyone should be able to meet to get a permit, In my opinion, if you're going to carry, you should be able to hit what you point the thing at)


I'd agree, if the test is in the dark. If they can shoot as well in the dark in their own abode as regularly sighted people, then go for it. Having shot in the dark, its completely different and a blind person could probably kick all our asses (for the first shot).

Anyone remember Wait Until Dark? If she had a gun, it would have been a short play...


(hidden fact, for jury purposes Frazzled is legally blind. Most people think the wife is definitely blind as well, after seeing me in the flesh)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/09 15:55:13


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I always train that you never shoot at a vague "shape" or a sound. Not sure how these shooters will be able to responsibly employ their firearms.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/09 15:57:04


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. Louis, Missouri

I understand the disabliities act, but this? What's the difference between a blind person shooting a gun, and a blind person driving? This is just plain silly.

And if you're drinkin' well, you know that you're my friend and I say "I think I'll have myself a beer"
DS:80+SG-M-B--IPw40k09-D++A+/mWD-R++T(Ot)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 Frazzled wrote:
Screw that blind master kung fu crap. Now we have blind Dirty Harry!


Do you feel lucky punk?



Brings a whole new level of meaning to the question I think.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Spacemanvic wrote:
I always train that you never shoot at a vague "shape" or a sound. Not sure how these shooters will be able to responsibly employ their firearms.

You have the luxury of being a sighted person. I too, would never shoot at a vague sound. When I'm at the range, if I remove my glasses my distance vision sometimes reduces the paper-person target to a black blob between white edges. I still manage to hit the paper most of the time, and I'm nowhere close to legally blind.


 mega_bassist wrote:
I understand the disabliities act, but this? What's the difference between a blind person shooting a gun, and a blind person driving? This is just plain silly.


One is a person pulling a trigger, the other is a person driving a car. The two actions are literally nothing at all the same.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 streamdragon wrote:
 Spacemanvic wrote:
I always train that you never shoot at a vague "shape" or a sound. Not sure how these shooters will be able to responsibly employ their firearms.

You have the luxury of being a sighted person. I too, would never shoot at a vague sound. When I'm at the range, if I remove my glasses my distance vision sometimes reduces the paper-person target to a black blob between white edges. I still manage to hit the paper most of the time, and I'm nowhere close to legally blind.


 mega_bassist wrote:
I understand the disabliities act, but this? What's the difference between a blind person shooting a gun, and a blind person driving? This is just plain silly.


One is a person pulling a trigger, the other is a person driving a car. The two actions are literally nothing at all the same.


Remember, legally and ethically, every bullet you fire from a firearm has your signature on it. Hitting a paper "most of the time" is one thing, shooting at something you cant see has life-altering consequences, for both the shooter and the one shot.

From a self defense standpoint, youre probably looking at a 3-5 yard distance from a threat. This somewhat mitigates against hitting something other-than the attacker. If the person feels responsible enough to exercise this right, well , they are adults.....
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Spacemanvic wrote:
 streamdragon wrote:
 Spacemanvic wrote:
I always train that you never shoot at a vague "shape" or a sound. Not sure how these shooters will be able to responsibly employ their firearms.

You have the luxury of being a sighted person. I too, would never shoot at a vague sound. When I'm at the range, if I remove my glasses my distance vision sometimes reduces the paper-person target to a black blob between white edges. I still manage to hit the paper most of the time, and I'm nowhere close to legally blind.


Remember, legally and ethically, every bullet you fire from a firearm has your signature on it. Hitting a paper "most of the time" is one thing, shooting at something you cant see has life-altering consequences, for both the shooter and the one shot.

From a self defense standpoint, youre probably looking at a 3-5 yard distance from a threat. This somewhat mitigates against hitting something other-than the attacker. If the person feels responsible enough to exercise this right, well , they are adults.....

I'm well aware of the significance of each shot. I'm just not sure why people seem to think someone being blind means that person can't understand that significance also.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
The Main Man






Beast Coast

Aren't some people who are legally blind able to see just fine, or at least well enough, with glasses or contacts?


Or does legally blind mean they can't see even with glasses or contacts?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/09 17:59:48


   
Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

 Hordini wrote:
Aren't some people who are legally blind able to see just fine, or at least well enough, with glasses or contacts?


Or does legally blind mean they can't see even with glasses or contacts?

In the US, being legally blind means that their vision is worse than 20/200 with corrective means in place. This means that what they see at 20 feet, we all see at 200 feet. So a person with 20/10 vision sees details at 20 feet that a person with normal eyesight sees at 10 feet.

Total blindness is a range of absolutely no sight to light source perception (kind of like when you close your eyes, you can still perceive some light through your eyelids.

Funny fact, my dad is legally blind in both eyes without his classes, and legally blind in his left eye with glasses.

DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 streamdragon wrote:
 Spacemanvic wrote:
 streamdragon wrote:
 Spacemanvic wrote:
I always train that you never shoot at a vague "shape" or a sound. Not sure how these shooters will be able to responsibly employ their firearms.

You have the luxury of being a sighted person. I too, would never shoot at a vague sound. When I'm at the range, if I remove my glasses my distance vision sometimes reduces the paper-person target to a black blob between white edges. I still manage to hit the paper most of the time, and I'm nowhere close to legally blind.


Remember, legally and ethically, every bullet you fire from a firearm has your signature on it. Hitting a paper "most of the time" is one thing, shooting at something you cant see has life-altering consequences, for both the shooter and the one shot.

From a self defense standpoint, youre probably looking at a 3-5 yard distance from a threat. This somewhat mitigates against hitting something other-than the attacker. If the person feels responsible enough to exercise this right, well , they are adults.....

I'm well aware of the significance of each shot. I'm just not sure why people seem to think someone being blind means that person can't understand that significance also.



I think it's that some dont even want to give them that option. It's a right, leave it to the individual to exercise....
   
Made in ca
Lieutenant Colonel






cars kill plenty of people, and one car with a full tank of gas can easily kill more people then a fully loaded handgun in the hands of a irresponsable person, blind or not.

beleive it or not, plenty of blind people can sense what is around them just fine, and while I do fully support CCW/open carry permits being issued to trained people, being "legally" blind doesnt actually mean you are unable to safely and responsably operate a car/handgun/ect

i have met legally blind people, who can ride a bike, with no dog or anything, around trees posts ect, using only the click method.

no reason why they cannot apply that to other things, such as cars or guns.

far more danger from cars anyways, get upset about the blind driving before you get upset about them carrying.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Spacemanvic wrote:
 streamdragon wrote:
 Spacemanvic wrote:
 streamdragon wrote:
 Spacemanvic wrote:
I always train that you never shoot at a vague "shape" or a sound. Not sure how these shooters will be able to responsibly employ their firearms.

You have the luxury of being a sighted person. I too, would never shoot at a vague sound. When I'm at the range, if I remove my glasses my distance vision sometimes reduces the paper-person target to a black blob between white edges. I still manage to hit the paper most of the time, and I'm nowhere close to legally blind.


Remember, legally and ethically, every bullet you fire from a firearm has your signature on it. Hitting a paper "most of the time" is one thing, shooting at something you cant see has life-altering consequences, for both the shooter and the one shot.

From a self defense standpoint, youre probably looking at a 3-5 yard distance from a threat. This somewhat mitigates against hitting something other-than the attacker. If the person feels responsible enough to exercise this right, well , they are adults.....

I'm well aware of the significance of each shot. I'm just not sure why people seem to think someone being blind means that person can't understand that significance also.



I think it's that some dont even want to give them that option. It's a right, leave it to the individual to exercise....

I'm not saying we should force every blind person to own and carry a gun. I'm disagreeing with the idea presented in the OP's article: that being blind should automatically preclude someone from gun ownership.
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




WA

Even if they can't shoot it, being able to have on on their person to to reveal during a robbery is a great deterrent.

"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa

"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch

FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

This made me lol.

Don't see too many of these being issues honestly. Not gonna get my arms up about it, but it's certainly an example of the law resulting in a silly outcome I tell you what

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 LordofHats wrote:
This made me lol.

Don't see too many of these being issues honestly. Not gonna get my arms up about it, but it's certainly an example of the law resulting in a silly outcome I tell you what


Well if we've moved beyond vision correctable, I think I finally see a use for a Judge/Governor's shotshell option...

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






I am normally fr gun rights now. But to me this is a firm no. This isnlt like skateboarding thing someone mentioned. This is someone who cannot see clearly wielding a weapon. If someone needs a dog to tell them when to cross the street why would we let them have a dangerous weapon?

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

What if they just have a sawed off gat?
Where are they at boy?
Woof!
BLAM!

Again, irrespective there are multiple levels of vision impaired here.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




WA

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I am normally fr gun rights now. But to me this is a firm no. This isnlt like skateboarding thing someone mentioned. This is someone who cannot see clearly wielding a weapon. If someone needs a dog to tell them when to cross the street why would we let them have a dangerous weapon?


I might be the only one, but I'm in support of allowing even completely blind people to carry a firearm. Just having a weapon on your person can aid you in self defense by acting as a deterrent if it's ever drawn.

Just because someone is blind doesn't mean they're going to shoot anything they're not supposed to.

"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa

"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch

FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






Just because they might not shoot doesn't mean they wont. And I think this is just like a drivers license, you nee t see to work a gun just like a car.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Blind people should carry hand grenades, like in "X Marks The Pedwalk".

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




WA

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Just because they might not shoot doesn't mean they wont. And I think this is just like a drivers license, you nee t see to work a gun just like a car.


But a gun does not need to shoot to be useful in defense.

"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa

"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch

FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Just because they might not shoot doesn't mean they wont. And I think this is just like a drivers license, you nee t see to work a gun just like a car.


Except of course, every human has an inalienable right to self defense. Drive a car, not so much.

But remember boys and girls, nobody walks in LA!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench





Riverside

Not every blind person is dare devil..

Imperial Fist-6k
Dark elves-4k
Dark eldar 2.5k
Warriors of chaos-4k
Dakka swap shop trades.....12 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 SheSpits wrote:
Not every blind person is dare devil..


"You shoot like crap. What are you, blind? Oh..."

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

 Frazzled wrote:
Except of course, every human has an inalienable right to self defense.


There is no such thing as an inalienable right.

   
 
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