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Good morning Sir , dont give up the IH so fast, IMO they do their best in AV14 range, if you think about the killer ICs nowerdays witch ones are the best? R4, 3+/4++ enrgy weapon ones or R5 2+/3++ F10fp2 eternal warrior ones?
It happen the same with armor, AV14 and achilles special rules makes IWND go over the top.
AV14 spawn would have been good enought with new HQ and troop cheap cost, going IH is just a little help, the key of the army are the spam of 7 av14 targets in the field from turn 1. You could not imagine the funny things those 2 batteries of Battlecanon fortifications can do for just 170 pts.......

On a side note we all knew this edition is not good for transports, it havent changed at all, I still think that the best army with new C:SM is the ravenwing with WS allies, but i also think Sick Raider spam can reach tier 1. Last year I played the whole season with my 3 Dragons, 3Vendettas, 3 Vindicators, 3Hydras, 2 vanilla chaos marines squats, Bastion with comm relay, CCS, Infantery Platoon in vendettas, all in 2000 points. Nobody believed it could work but it did, trust me.

I think you might have been unlucky there vs Tau and Eldar. The IH can crunch the Eldar and Tau, focus on their infantry, TFC's will get rid of the Marker Lights, then take Predator Annhilators in cover on your base line, taking out riptides, Crisis suits, wraithknights is priority one. The means moving quickly and hitting them, Landspeeders with Multi-melta's, Bikes with Grav Guns, Storm Talon's with TL-LAS.

But conventional Heavy Tanks? Nope. You need a Storm Eagle or something to drop an assault squad where you want it, boom, bye, bye Big walker.

Also Scouts in LSS with Melta bombs or a PF. Zoom in, kaboom. Nothing in 40k is invulnerable or perfect Synergy takes a while.

Keep at it mate, you've given me some thoughts and things to consider, which is why I love forums. Sometimes someone points out something and it totally changes your perspective. Like the day i learned to take a PF and Combi-Flamer on my Sergeants.

This is the thing, I'm not a spammy player.

I hate spamming units.

As much as I like Tanks, seeing more than two LR just seems... Meh.
It echoes power gaming to me.
If anyone likes spamming, all the power to you.
It's just not for me.

As for this codex, there is something I don't like about it. I really liked the 5th ed one because you could use the characters as counts as for other chapters. In this one, you can't.

There's other little things too, but my biggest gripe is how fragile a marine is. These guys are supposed to be the elite of the emperor and right now, 170 pts of Tactical squad get slaughtered by 170 pts of just about anything else in a shooting war. Fire Warriors, Avengers, Guardians and especially Guard and Orks.

The Marines just seem to be the weakest Troops choice now and the army as a whole seems like its turned from being quite resilient and having ok firepower, to a couple of units with good firepower and no resilience.

My friends I play test with say the same and they also say that out of the new book, only White Scars are coming out as competitive.

Everyone keeps mentioning that the achilles is invincible... apart from to absolutely anything with haywire. If an achilles is run against necrons an RDI with 4 stormteks will score 4 and a bit hull points and thats AFTER a 4++ save from DA equipment. And 4 stormteks come in at 100pts.
If they aren't running an RDI then they may run a silver horde - achilles dies to mass gauss glances.
Wraith wing - 3++ save makes the multimeltas far less effective and their rending will rip it to pieces.
Scarab farm - enough said.
If facing necrons you will HAVE to run lots of cheap boots on the ground to shield the achilles, and if you run 2, you might as well not set up.
Against any other army then the achilles is amazing, but against many necron builds its a liability.
Then necrons are truely the achilles heel.

Not many necron players use the stormtek hq , most prefeer dual wraithwing some NS with few warriors on them and anihilation barge, still you could survive that army moving back to back within the battleground borders and forcing the tech squad to make some risky DS jumps. Ive done it before agains Suicide melta crisis and they got bigger firing range. Necrons will be a thought game but I think we got the winning hand agains them.

Mate, powergaming have a lot to do with the way you play and few with the way you build army lists. Competitive enviroment force you to use the best you have, spamming unnits like Land raiders that almost nobody nowerdays uses doesnt feel like abusing anything.... Also a Land raider Achiles, a Land Raider Terminus and a Land Raider Crusader only have in comun the name and the AV14 cause they are so diferent and have so diferent uses as a tactical, an assault and a devastator marine squad.

But I like and respect your point of view.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Everyone keeps mentioning that the achilles is invincible...

I was one of those... I will admit that.

They are obscenely tough, but far, far from invincible.

Tau, Necrons and Eldar completely murder this tank.

Vs Chaos, IoM and Orks, this Tank tears through and doesn't stop.

Vs Nids, it could struggle as a Carnifex will still make this it's plaything.

 KingCronan wrote:
I have to say I am severely disappointed in the lack of terminators in these Iron hand lists! They are supposed to be one of the most Terminatorin chapters this side of the galactic Mississippi!

Fluff wise, they have the least cause of all they lost on a certain world.

 juraigamer wrote:

 KingCronan wrote:
I have to say I am severely disappointed in the lack of terminators in these Iron hand lists! They are supposed to be one of the most Terminatorin chapters this side of the galactic Mississippi!

Fluff wise, they have the least cause of all they lost on a certain world.

There is a common mis-conception here, the Iron Hands Legion was not all at Istvaan. Ferrus took the best units he had to hand e.g all the Veterans, he didn't take the whole legion.

Not all veterans have Terminator Armour and not all Terminator Armour is in the hands of Veterans (this is a product of later times when Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes). So a significant number (read Hundreds or possibly Thousands) of TDA suits would have survived with other Iron Hand Chapters on Deployment.

So even though they got hammered, a good portion of the Legion was still out in the galaxy although devastated that the Boss was "supposedly dead"

Although...

 mwnciboo wrote:

Spoiler:

In Angel Exterminatus, Ferrus's Head is the hands of Fabius Bile and they are having a conversation, so how he's still alive minus his body I have no idea? Standby for yet another RET-CON

Four things:

I'm curious if we can use contemptor dreads at tiournaments now? Contemptor Dreadnought - Twin-Linked Lascannon, Havoc Missile Launcher for 215 or Kheris Assault Cannons for 180 with IWND would really solve our AA issues.

 felixcat wrote:
I'm curious if we can use contemptor dreads at tiournaments now? Contemptor Dreadnought - Twin-Linked Lascannon, Havoc Missile Launcher for 215 or Kheris Assault Cannons for 180 with IWND would really solve our AA issues.

Tournaments are coming around to FW but not all of them. You have to check when you are signing up if they allow FW then you get to go to town. But more and more tournaments seems to be allowing allowing FW these days

I'm abit confused over the techmarines.

I see some lists taking the upgrade: Power Axe.
The rule for Servo Arm was in the 5th codex one extra power fist attack. Now it is a complete Power fist: 2x str, special weapon and unvieldy with unlimited attacks.
So the only reason to use an Axe is the extra attack from the pistol. But with str 5.
And if you get the Servo Harnes, you will get an extra Servo Arm. Thats basicly two Power Fists and no reason at all to get the Power Axe upgrade.

Motf has another strange thing. If you get the convention beamer you replace the complete Servo Harness.
Now the Motf doesn't have any Servo Arms at all. But he can still repair, because the rule Blessing of Omnomnom.
The blessing only gets +1 on the roll for a Servo Harness, so obviously you don't need a Servo Arm at all to repair.

 Kain wrote:
Iron Hands Achilles Land Raiders and Spartans are going to make people cry cheese for quite a while, drive up a PFG and a Techmarine/MoTF next to them to maximize tears and butthurt.
Did you somehow get a hullpoint off my AV14 all around melta and lance immune tank that forces you to roll -1 on the damage table? Lemme roll that away.
Want to try ignoring it? Nope, Thunderfire cannon.
Get close? Nope, multimeltas.
Sure it's expensive at 325 points, but it's never going down and is going to be a pain in the ass all game long.

One of my good friends brings normally undying Achillies full of techmarines/MOTF against me fairly often. Occassionally he fields two, but haywire grenades kill them far too effectively. Taking 5+ glancing hits in one phase will kill it no matter how much IWND and repairs it can make.

I would imagine newcron guass would also kill them with ease.

It's been fun, I've tested as much as I wanted and I now know Marines are not for me. Too fragile. I'd even say, most fragile army in game as 3+ is easy to get around and you lack numbers.

It's a shame really, as Marines have some of my favourite models and fluff.

Maybe this is GW's way of holding to Grim Dark, since apparently there is no hope for the Emperor's Finest versus Xenos/Chaos.

The Imperium should still have plenty of grimdark karma left over from 2nd. What a disaster for Imperial armies.

I think if you "lack numbers" in a Marine army, you're probably doing it wrong-- I generally start with 30 Tactical Marines at 1000 points and build up from there.