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I haven't read much talk about running centurion assault squads. Posts I have read are mostly skeptical and seem to prefer hammer/shield termies than centurions. Has anyone played a match with or against these yet, because it seems to me that assault centurions, at least on paper, are pretty epic. Yeah they don't have and invul save and they cant deepstrike but for 35 points less than hammer/shield termies, having T5, a ranged attack, and a Str 9 AP 2 armorbane attack and initiative 4 seems rather good to me. Or is there something I'm overlooking? curious to read some opinions

I am curious aswell and was wondering how many people have used them yet and if they preform well.

I think a few in a Landraider would be pretty good.

I had a long debate with a friend recently in regards to this.

You have no choice but to put the Assault Centurions in a Land Raider. Cost wise they are already WAY above the TH/SS squad. If they are not in a transport they won't make it across the field due to the massed amounts of AP 2 shooting you see out there and the fact that they can't run. Riptides, Plasma spam, Lascannon spam, basically anything AP 2 will really hurt the Centurions. For basically the same cost you could have a unit of 10 TH / SS Terminators and Deepstrike them where you need them. They can't assault the turn they arrive but they have far greater survivability.

So compare 3 Centurions stock inside a Land Raider against 10 TH/SS. Against shooting units, the 10 TH/SS will perform far better due to volume of attacks. It doesn't matter that you are striking at I1 as nothing in a shooting unit (in assault) will pose any threat to a 2+/3++

Against assault type units, the TH/SS are far more reliable with far more survivability.

**Edit**

Just for fun lets say a unit of 3 centurions got the assault on a unit of 10 TH/SS. They are very close in points (440 to 450)

I'll use a stock Raider but I can do the comparison with a crusader or redeemer if you like. We will also say the raider moved 6, cents disembark up to 6 to get the assault off, so the Raider can fire 2 weapons at full BS.

0.5 models killed by the Land Raiders twin linked Lascannons.
0.1 models killed by the Land Raiders twin linked Heavy Bolter

3 Centurions armed with twin linked flamers and hurricane bolters (for arguments sake, all 10 terminators are hit by the flamers)

2.4 models killed by the Flamers
1.3 models killed by the Hurricane Bolters

Attacks from the Centurions

1.4 models killed by the Centurions attacks

5.7 terminators dead before they strike back. Lets call it 6 dead Terminators

Terminators strike back

Terminators cause 3.34 unsaveable wounds to your Centurions, that's 1 dead and 1 wound on a 2nd and now the centurions are striking at i1 too.

Now correct me if im wrong but I believe you can transport centurions in a storm raven, It doesn't say it cant carry very bulky models in the codex. seems like a good way to get them to assault range rather quickly.

You could transport them in a Raven. That's only 50 points cheaper than a Land Raider, and dropping them off would require the Raven to enter Hover mode, which is never ideal.

The point I am trying to make though is that you cannot compare 3 Assault Centurions to 5 TH/SS. The TH/SS have mobility in the form of deep strike while the Cents MUST have a transport. When you factor that in, you can field a unit of 5 TH/SS as a very effective CC unit (just as effective as 3 cents) for FAR cheaper as you won't have to buy a transport and can instead use the points to build up something else. Or you could simply beef up the TH/SS squad to make it even scarier.

Ok so lets not count the transport, in a straight up cc match the centurions definitely look like they can hold their own, and possibly better than termies with TH/SS. the strength 9 ap 2 at initiative is really cool. Dreadnought hunting, AV hunting, they have a certain seige alure to them i like.

You have to count the transport though. That's the thing. Your assault centurions will never get to do the job you want them to do without one. even if you started at the edge of your deployment, you are 24" away (at best) from your opponent and can only move 6' a turn. You will never catch anything with that unit.

They certainly have that allure, and like you, I was leaning towards the Centurions at first. My friend convinced me otherwise, and I definitely now fall on the side of 'they sound great, but the TH/SS do the job WAY better.' The one area they are superior is killing Dreadnoughts. However, if you don't have them inside a transport you would have to hope your opponent wants to get at your Cents. Not to mention you would have to swap out the hurricane bolters for ironclad launchers if you intend to footslog at all, as you will strike at I1 when assaulting through terrain.

Fluffwise they fit great with IF, which I love. However, I am going to be building my Cent kit as a Dev Squad. They just do not have the sustainability that the TH/SS have.

As pointed out very well cost is the problem where other models can do better.

I also have better uses for that LR delivering other units that can earn their keep:
like crusader squads,
OR assault terminators as mentioned,
OR (not sure) Centurions with gravity cannons.

I am still having trouble justifying the three with the TL LC and ML but trying to fit them in (Competing in the cage match that is the Heavy choice area).
This is about the only area I can "settle on" to use them.

I ran a unit of 3 Dev Cents with TL LC and ML today. They are expensive, but they were my best performing unit. I have taken to allying in DA. I use a DA Librarian with a PFG accompanying my Cents. With a 4++ they are far more durable, and have the opportunity to earn their points back. Not to mention the Libby can prescience other units in my backfield.

I am not a SM player, but looking at assault centurions they really don't seem like they can be worth it at all. They really must have a land raider. With TH/SS termies as an option, I don't see why assault centurions will ever see use. Even if they were S10, but S9 is such a marginal improvement over S8.

Lehnsherr wrote:
I ran a unit of 3 Dev Cents with TL LC and ML today. They are expensive, but they were my best performing unit. I have taken to allying in DA. I use a DA Librarian with a PFG accompanying my Cents. With a 4++ they are far more durable, and have the opportunity to earn their points back. Not to mention the Libby can prescience other units in my backfield.

This is my experience so far. Dev Cents with TL LC and ML are by far the best option for Imperial Fists. I want to see what Assault Centurions can do.

At S10 I think they would have more of a role. Being able to Instant Kill T5 at Initiative would at least make me reconsider them as an option. As it stands though, they are an assault unit that has the ability to kill chaff with shooting, and tanks. They can do a few things but you can get better shooting elsewhere, and for cheaper. You can get CC that is just as good for cheaper too.

Their lack of mobility is really the worst thing about them.

Note that I have not experimented with Allying in DA. I understand it is an option, but right now I'm personally more interested in what Space Marines can do on their own, rather than relying on another codex.

You can get them a cover save by using an Aegis or parking them in cover. They need some form of save other than armor to protect against heavier shots. The reason I like the DA Librarian so much is the fact that he provides a 4++ to my Devs and to my AA in my backfield, plus with prescience it just adds more firepower. Its dirt cheap to field too.

Assault centurions are CSM mutilators, but worse. Yes, they have at-initiative, but no deepstrike and no invul save makes them worse. Worse than mutilators. And CSM players hate mutilators. For good reason, generally.

Assault terminators are difficult enough to make useful, and they have all the bonus abilities of showing up anywhere they want via deepstrike and having a 3++. Without those, assault centurions are, at very best, a counter-attack unit.

But if you wanted defensive centurions, why not take them with grav cannons?

Lehnsherr wrote:
I had a long debate with a friend recently in regards to this.

You have no choice but to put the Assault Centurions in a Land Raider. Cost wise they are already WAY above the TH/SS squad. If they are not in a transport they won't make it across the field due to the massed amounts of AP 2 shooting you see out there and the fact that they can't run. Riptides, Plasma spam, Lascannon spam, basically anything AP 2 will really hurt the Centurions. For basically the same cost you could have a unit of 10 TH / SS Terminators and Deepstrike them where you need them. They can't assault the turn they arrive but they have far greater survivability.

So compare 3 Centurions stock inside a Land Raider against 10 TH/SS. Against shooting units, the 10 TH/SS will perform far better due to volume of attacks. It doesn't matter that you are striking at I1 as nothing in a shooting unit (in assault) will pose any threat to a 2+/3++

Against assault type units, the TH/SS are far more reliable with far more survivability.

**Edit**

Just for fun lets say a unit of 3 centurions got the assault on a unit of 10 TH/SS. They are very close in points (440 to 450)

I'll use a stock Raider but I can do the comparison with a crusader or redeemer if you like. We will also say the raider moved 6, cents disembark up to 6 to get the assault off, so the Raider can fire 2 weapons at full BS.

0.5 models killed by the Land Raiders twin linked Lascannons.
0.1 models killed by the Land Raiders twin linked Heavy Bolter

3 Centurions armed with twin linked flamers and hurricane bolters (for arguments sake, all 10 terminators are hit by the flamers)

2.4 models killed by the Flamers
1.3 models killed by the Hurricane Bolters

Attacks from the Centurions

1.4 models killed by the Centurions attacks

5.7 terminators dead before they strike back. Lets call it 6 dead Terminators

Terminators strike back

Terminators cause 3.34 unsaveable wounds to your Centurions, that's 1 dead and 1 wound on a 2nd and now the centurions are striking at i1 too.

You have to admit, if your going to run a comparison of assault capability, its not fair to include the landraiders cost

Yes you do because in an actual game they actually have to cross the field; it's not like they just magically appear in a fight.

Here is the way I look at it.

* Against AP3 or worse weapons they are more Resilient-Per-Point than TH/SS terminators
* Against AP2 weapons, they are much less Resilient-Per-Point than TH/SS terminators.
* They have less Dakka-Per-Point than TH/SS terminators in assault.
* They have some shooting weapons. TL melta guns can be a big surprise for any flyer that gets with 12" of them. (6" move 6" melta)
* They open land raiders like noone else. This has limited value, as most targets have low rear armors so even krak grenades can do the job.
* Unlike terminators, they don't have a deep strike option. This means your buying a land raider as well.

They do magically appear in a fight when those terminators just appear on top of them like in your situation

If your going to assume that the terminators get to deep strike and land on top of them, then discount the cost of the landraider, or at the VERY least factor in it shooting them with its guns after they drop.

Davou, I did factor in the land raider shooting.

Not only that I also factored all 3 twin linked flamers on the cents hitting all 10 terminators each. A scenario that is HIGHLY unlikely.

Terminators will in fact "magically appear" where you want them most of the time. They can deep strike and they can run.

Assault centurions cannot run, cannot deep strike, and have only a 6' move. Without a transport they will never see combat, which means you've paid almost 200 points for 3 twin linked flamers and 3 twin linked hurricane bolter weapons platforms.

Alright alright, I concede.

I don't much care for the shooty centurions either though Big expensive models sit poorly on the table in 6th unless they are monsters.

See it depends on what you have in your list. The big shooty centurions at least are a viable option. I run a 3 man squad all with Twin Linked Las, Missiles and an Omniscope. Its expensive, but I also ally in the DA librarian with a PFG. When you give the unit a 4++ they are now quite durable. With Tank Hunters (due to IF chapter tactics) they pose a serious threat, even to Land Raiders.

So i guess a good question would be: is there any army set up where using assault centurions would be more advantagious than using assault termies?

Hordes. They won't have stuff to beat their 2+, and you get more 2+ wounds per point with the centurions. Plus, hurricane bolters.

SM players shouldn't be having any problems handling hordes, though. Of course, if what you want is to handle non-hordes, like TEq, vehicles, and monstrous creatures... then you have shooty centurions.

There are situations where using Assault Centurions would be more beneficial.

Say you were facing a LRC spam list from DA. In that case a unit of Assault Centurions would be the most threatening thing on the board. Or if it was a custom game / campaign where you had heavy fortifications they might have a place too.

Outside of those type of list tailored and odd situations though, if you are building an all comers list, then no. The TH/SS give you more points to play with (not having to pay for a transport) or will be that much more of a threat (10 of them instead of 5).

**Edit**

Or like Ailaros said, they would be good against a Green Tide as they have a lot of firepower to kill the units before the assault. But just as Ailaros said, you do not need them to deal with a horde. You have a lot of other options available.

A libby with goi would allow the cents to deepstrike

What happens if you don't roll gate?

Seems like a massive gamble to take when you are using over 250 points that may end up being useless if you don't roll the psychic ability. I'd rather not take the 84% chance my unit becomes a waste.

You could take Mastery Level 2, increase your odds, increase your cost, and now you'd have a unit thats close to 300 points with only a 33% chance of being useful. Not something I would ever want to gamble on.

Lehnsherr wrote:
What happens if you don't roll gate?

Seems like a massive gamble to take when you are using over 250 points that may end up being useless if you don't roll the psychic ability. I'd rather not take the 84% chance my unit becomes a waste.

You could take Mastery Level 2, increase your odds, increase your cost, and now you'd have a unit thats close to 300 points with only a 33% chance of being useful. Not something I would ever want to gamble on.

Then take 2 ML2 Libbies.

All for the sake of getting gate for your cents so they can be as viable as the TH/SS on their own?

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Lehnsherr wrote:
What happens if you don't roll gate?

Seems like a massive gamble to take when you are using over 250 points that may end up being useless if you don't roll the psychic ability. I'd rather not take the 84% chance my unit becomes a waste.

You could take Mastery Level 2, increase your odds, increase your cost, and now you'd have a unit thats close to 300 points with only a 33% chance of being useful. Not something I would ever want to gamble on.

Then take 2 ML2 Libbies.

I like the way this guy thinks