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I wouldn't give them an Armor Save. They are just wearing fancy suits after all.

Though they should have a higher BS. Using the Classic and Impossible difficulties, they would have BS4.

They should also have fleet, due to their high movement in the game.

Also, thin men have Light Plasma Rifles.

Oh true I forgot about that, I haven't played in weeks lol.

darthnatus wrote:So what have we done so far? This is what I can see so far tell me if I missed anything:
HQ
Sectoid Commander

Troops
Sectoids
Mutons

Fast Attack
Floaters

And now that Thin men are being discussed we have sectopods, outsiders, drones, elite/heavy variants, crysallids, and ethereals left. Wow

Well then, here's my suggestion for thin men

A little bare bones. But a good start.

Here's what I got after using your model as a base.

.

WS 3 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 5 A 1 Ld 7 Sv:- PPM: 12
Special rules: Infiltrate, suppression, fleet, stealth, acute senses.


Wargear: Light Elerium Plasma Rifle

24" Range S5 AP4 Assault 2 Accurate*

*Rerolls ones to hit

Slot: Elites

Thin men may be upgraded to have scouts for two points per model and outflanking for three points per model.

One thin man per squad may be upgraded into a leader for an additional eight points.

Leader thin men have the following statline

WS 3 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 5 A 1 Ld 9 Sv:-

Special rules: Infiltrate, suppression, fleet, stealth, acute senses, leadership. Poison cloud

Leadership: A thin man squad may use it's Leader's Leadership score for all purposes.

Poison cloud: Being of reptilian origin, quite likely of an ophidian nature, Thin men are capable of spewing forth large clouds of lethal toxins that slowly sap away an enemy's strength, making them weaker and easier to kill. Once per turn, in addition to shooting, a Leader Thin mper squad may shoot a weapon with the following profile

Rng 24 (they seem to be able to fire as long as they have line of sight) S- AP- Ignores Cover, Weakening

*Weakening, a victim of a poison cloud has a poisoned token placed on them, when a poisoned token is placed, treat as if hit by a rad grenade, with the exception of not counting for instant death

(Alternatively Rng' 24, SX (4+ poison) AP4 Ignores Cover, Blast.)

Fluff: Dastardly infiltrators, the Thin Men once served the Ethereal Empire in their natural shape as the Snake Men, but it was found that there was a better use for them after finding that their bodies were highly pliable to extremely radical genetic alteration. This lead to twisting them into infiltrators and giving them extensive education on the ways of their enemies, sneaking into enemy societies and engaging in acts of sabotage, intelligence gathering, and infiltration. Though some may believe a Thin Man should stick out like a sore thumb, the Ethereals are masters of their craft, and the Thin Men dress in distinctly unmemorable fashions, usually masquerading as respectable but not noteworthy members of society such as middle ranking men of commerce or local politics. Sometimes, some have even been found to infiltrate the military.

Thin men are hard to focus on due to a memetic low grade psychic effect that helps them slip from one's memory more easily and generally makes them uninteresting to the eye. They tend to be unassuming and garner little attention to themselves and as such make excellent spies. However, the eyes of a thin man have always been a problem to engineer to resemble the target's people, requiring them to conceal or explain them away. On the battlefield, Thin men work as reconnaissance and advanced striking units, coming in from angles the enemy did not expect while flight capable units descend from on high.

This proved crucial for defeating the Bloody harvest Dark Eldar kabal, which proved easy to infiltrate as the Dark Eldar's love of body modification and lack of oversight for the movements of individuals within their society made it a simple matter for the Thin men to hide away in their civilization, gathering intelligence on these new foes and damaging their workings from within. The Bloody harvest Kabal, having attacked the Ethereal Empire in search of new and interesting slaves to take, was very surprised to find that over the years, a substnatial fraction of the Kabal had slowly been replaced by Thin men, the Archon simply assuming that being even taller and lither than usual was just a new bodily fashion trend.

But during what was supposed to be a routine raid against the newcomers, the Thin men sprung a trap, releasing his prisoners and giving them back their weapons and opening up a second front as another force of aliens came in to cut off his Kabal's retreat. In the end, it was for once, the Dark Eldar who were abducted and tortured by mysterious raiders. The Archon would eventually find himself in a large, clear container with two metallic arms, facing a large number of onlooking aliens and beating futilely on the glass, screaming and begging for release before seeing some of the Thin Men who brought about his downfall staring coldly at him, smiling venemously before the arms came upon him and his entire world was pain.

I've liked all your stuff up to now, its been kinda like a mix between marines and tau, but they pay for it. But this guy seems well OP and surely you understand why. Its a veteran which swaps a Ld for I, and gains infiltrate, scout, acute senses, fleet a 2 shot AP 4 pulse rifle which re-rolls ones for a whole 3 points more. That's not even counting how stupidly good poison cloud is (Or how weird it will be to play with).

Lets start with the poison cloud, because that needs a major over haul. First, you haven't made it clear if each thin man can do it or if a single one can do it. Second the weaken ability will either be Op or useless because only models under the blast get a token (Which will be really hard to record in a massive guant horde) so the minus to toughness will either be totally ignored due to majority toughness or it will be OP by lowering a unit of 5 paladins to T 3 when it only hits 3 due to majority toughness.

The damaging aspect it simply OP against certain units if each one can do it because it will slaughter the likes of rangers and pathfinders, as well as tau/guard gunlines because you can hide comfortably in area terrain 36 inches away (LOS doesn't = across the bored away, line of sight should really only be 24inches tops. That's forgetting the fact he is spitting it, not shooting it with any powerful force) while dropping butt loads of templates on guard while ignoring all their saves. The explosion on death has to go period, it makes them FAR, FAR to powerful against the likes of orks and guant hordes when you can easily have a unit of 10 for no amount of points.

I'm also of the opinion that the AP of your weapons is a bit excessive, AP 5 being standard anti infantry. AP 4 makes a mockery of what most xenos armies call one of their best/most common saves that is frankly ridiculous for the amount you pay for it only to have it negated by most things.

To end rant/advise, I would change it by dropping poison cloud as standard and have it as the 'sergeants' ability that instead of firing his weapon, he may lower a units T by 1. This does not count of ID purposes (They are weakened, but they aren't falling apart in any way) or he may use it as your above damaging cloud. For 12 points per guy that would be fair, with a rather expensive Sargent of like for an extra 20pts. Keep up the good work, but remember the key part to a successful home brew is to be under powered, over priced and avoid cheese, that way people will want you to play with them with your home brew and won't have iffy feelings that they weren't fair when you win.

The Thin Man TTG version is OP? Perfect, the video game version is pretty ridiculous as well

Seriously though, I think the Poison Gas ability should be dropped. There is no good way of balancing it.

Hrmmm...I'll get to it tomorrow and do some toning down. I'd still like to try with the poison gas but Balance does come before XCOMism.

Hrmmm...

I'll do a double feature with the revised Thin Men and Cyberdiscs and drones.

Should Cyberdiscs be infantry, monstrous creatures, or vehicles?

And should drones be upgrades or their own units? A jump or jetpack infantry that doesn't take up FOC slots but is rubbish in a fight appeals to me.

Cyberdisc:



WS 3 BS 4 S 5 T 5 W 3 I 3 A 2 Ld 10 Sv:3+ PPM: 75

Unit composition: 1-5

Special rules: Fold up, Death blossom, Fearless

Fold up: A Cyberdisc may be declared as "folded up" where it benefits from Feel no pain (4+) in exchange for not being able to fire or assault that turn.

Death blossom: Once per game, a Cyberdisc may place a large blast marker over itself, hitting all enemies caught with an S6 AP3 attack

Slot: Heavy Support

Unit type: Jetpack Monstrous creature

Wargear: Energy Repeater Blaster, Elerium Plasma grenade launcher

Energy Repeater Blaster: An awe inspiringly deadly long ranged killer, this weapon has been known to instantly kill great heroes and seriously injure monstrous creatures and do terrible things to vehicles. It uses the following profile

RNG 48'', S7, AP2, Heavy 2 Twinlinked

Elerium Plasma Grenade launcher: Launching plasma grenades at a distance to hit distant foes and force opponents out of cover, this weapon is highly lethal against fools who believed themselves safe behind their fortifications.

It has the following profile: 48" range S5 AP5 ignore cover, heavy 2 blast, twinlinked.


Fluff: A deadly mechanical contraption designed by the Sectoids for usage in the Ethereal Army, the Cyberdisc has proven to be a formidable foe. Gunning down opponents with single, powerful shots and moving with speed and grace that belies it's status as a machine the size of a small car with an odd aesthetic. Seeming to lull enemies in with an apparently innocuous flying disc shape, the Cyberdisc reveals it's true colors by unmorphing to unleash devastating firepower upon it's foes. While it is admittedly somewhat lacking in melee capacity for something so fearsome in appearance, the Cyberdisc can unveil a deadly trick in the form of the death blossom, which fires literally every last bit of firepower it has to destroy everything it can.

These deceptively agile craft proved useful in destroying a Chaos Space marine warband, going from hot zone to hot zone, killing the Chaos Lord's lieutenants one by one as they presented themselves while flying across the battlefield, firing into the vulnerable side and rear armor of enemies, destroying anything they came into contact with. An entire host of Bezerkers was wiped out when they sought to engage the Cyberdiscs in melee, only to be met with a mass death blossom that shredded the followers of Khorne and their accompanying cultists before the Cyberdisc floatilla finally cornered the Chaos Lord.

Without options, the Chaos Lord was backed into a corner, watching his defensive line of Daemon Engines be wiped out, his tanks smashed into ruin, his obliterators and mutilators left dead and the enemy coming for him. He sought to find something, anything he could challenge in melee, but was simply met with a wing of Cyberdiscs that callously fired into his unit and left nothing but smoking ruin and death. But he was cruelly left alive with a few of his posthuman warriors, who would soon be brought into the same interrogation chamber where so many had met an unspeakably painful end as their very thoughts were torn out of their heads and laid bare for the Ethereals.

I would say give it BS4 as it is a gunbeast, but the Tyrannofex (you know, the thing called a gunbeast in the fething entry) only has BS3 same as gants. Damn you Cruddace! But then again, it still has the two weapons at 36" so it's not too bad off even with BS3.

An interesting aside to all this is that, both 40k and X-com took inspiration from a game called Laserburn a 15mm sci-fi game from the '80s.

samwasking wrote:
An interesting aside to all this is that, both 40k and X-com took inspiration from a game called Laserburn a 15mm sci-fi game from the '80s.

Do tell.

The Cyberdisks cannon is not that powerful. It has the same strength as an Elerium Plasma Rifle in game.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Cyberdisks cannon is not that powerful. It has the same strength as an Elerium Plasma Rifle in game.

Really? I remember it pretty much just one shotting anyone not armored up in at least carapace.

 Kain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Cyberdisks cannon is not that powerful. It has the same strength as an Elerium Plasma Rifle in game.

Really? I remember it pretty much just one shotting anyone not armored up in at least carapace.

So can Plasma Rifles. They both deal about 8 damage.

Light Plasma Rifles are the ones that don't 1 shot your guys as often.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Cyberdisks cannon is not that powerful. It has the same strength as an Elerium Plasma Rifle in game.

Really? I remember it pretty much just one shotting anyone not armored up in at least carapace.

So can Plasma Rifles. They both deal about 8 damage.

Light Plasma Rifles are the ones that don't 1 shot your guys as often.

Right, to keep the price at 75 I gave it a range boost to 48''.

Anyone got any ideas for Drones and Outsiders?

Eh I put some more work into this because I was bored.

I decided that for more variety I'd steal from XCOM's own kit, and I did some rework of the background.

I'll probably do more sometime when I feel like it.

XCOM accuracy aside AP2 on every single model in Troops is pretty silly. I might nerf the plasma rifles a bit (they don't get to straight-up ignore armour in XCOM, last I checked).

 AnomanderRake wrote:
XCOM accuracy aside AP2 on every single model in Troops is pretty silly. I might nerf the plasma rifles a bit (they don't get to straight-up ignore armour in XCOM, last I checked).

Sectoid plasma pistols destroy Abrams tanks like they're no thing, and Mutons are essentially meant to be the Superiors of Space Marines in nearly every way. As for accuracy, your basic rookies are recruited straight from the best of Delta Force, Spetsnaz, SAS and the like. An XCOM colonel with forged out gear and gene-mods would probably solo several space marine squads going by the higher end XCOM calculations you could derive.

I could have gone much sillier with the calcs if I wanted to.

But I'll consider fiddling with the old stuff to perhaps tone it down. The intention though, is that one on one, the Ethereals can best most anyone, especially when it comes to infantry.

Chryssalids!

 Kain wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
XCOM accuracy aside AP2 on every single model in Troops is pretty silly. I might nerf the plasma rifles a bit (they don't get to straight-up ignore armour in XCOM, last I checked).

Sectoid plasma pistols destroy Abrams tanks like they're no thing, and Mutons are essentially meant to be the Superiors of Space Marines in nearly every way. As for accuracy, your basic rookies are recruited straight from the best of Delta Force, Spetsnaz, SAS and the like. An XCOM colonel with forged out gear and gene-mods would probably solo several space marine squads going by the higher end XCOM calculations you could derive.

I could have gone much sillier with the calcs if I wanted to.

But I'll consider fiddling with the old stuff to perhaps tone it down. The intention though, is that one on one, the Ethereals can best most anyone, especially when it comes to infantry.

Oh yeah, Ethereals are nuts. I wouldn't be surprised if they can mind rape Farseers with ease. Hell, the only reason why an Ethereal is alive is because of its mind; that body they're using isn't exactly alive.

Also, considering how all vehicles in XCOM appear to be made out of nitro glycerin and cardboard (even UFOs...an LMG can shatter its walls, for some silly reason), I wouldn't be surprised that a plasma pistol can wreck a tank

I like what you're doing here.

Mutons and Berserkers are heavily underpriced, however. The former is roughly the cost of a Plague Marine and superior despite their low LD, while the latter has almost the survivability of a MC at the cost of a TEQ (With fewer wounds than a MC, but still a statline superior to that of a Warboss, and cheaper than one)

I also recommend removing Blast on the airhunter. Blasts can't hit flyers and swooping FMCs, but the presence of Skyfire means that it can only snap shot- ergo, not fire at all since it is a Blast weapon- against other targets. This makes it literally impossible to use!

How does jetpack jump infantry on the floaters work?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I like what you're doing here.

Mutons and Berserkers are heavily underpriced, however. The former is roughly the cost of a Plague Marine and superior despite their low LD, while the latter has almost the survivability of a MC at the cost of a TEQ (With fewer wounds than a MC, but still a statline superior to that of a Warboss, and cheaper than one)

I also recommend removing Blast on the airhunter. Blasts can't hit flyers and swooping FMCs, but the presence of Skyfire means that it can only snap shot- ergo, not fire at all since it is a Blast weapon- against other targets. This makes it literally impossible to use!

How does jetpack jump infantry on the floaters work?

Did some fixes.

As for the floaters, they can choose to move as either jetpack or jump infantry in any given turn.

I feel like the Imperial Knight rules could almost be copied/pasted for a sectopod, maybe minus Stomp and make the battle cannon a normal one, instead of rapid fire. And losing the void shielding or whatever it's called.

 Kain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
15 feet range?! Blimey, there's no hiding from them

Also, they should be BS3. They only have 65 aim (except in Impossible) in the game, the same as XCOM rookies, who I would assume to also be BS3 to be consistent with Imperial Guardsmen.

They would also be S2 T2, since they are a lot more frailer and weaker than humans. Using the stats on classic difficulty, Sectoids have 3HP, and rookies have 4, 5 if you count the armor bonus.

Rookies if I remember, are fresh from like Delta Force, SAS, and Spetsnaz. Not exactly "regular" troopers.

65 aim is about equivalent to 65% of the time they hit, right? 65% chance of hitting is closer to 4/6 (BS4) than 3/6 (BS3). BS4 is fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

unto the cruel wrote:
I feel like the Imperial Knight rules could almost be copied/pasted for a sectopod, maybe minus Stomp and make the battle cannon a normal one, instead of rapid fire. And losing the void shielding or whatever it's called.

So a normal walker then?

unto the cruel wrote:
I feel like the Imperial Knight rules could almost be copied/pasted for a sectopod, maybe minus Stomp and make the battle cannon a normal one, instead of rapid fire. And losing the void shielding or whatever it's called.

The Sectopod in either it's Enemy Within or The Bureau form is a wee bit small for superheavy status and isn't half as competent at melee.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
15 feet range?! Blimey, there's no hiding from them

Also, they should be BS3. They only have 65 aim (except in Impossible) in the game, the same as XCOM rookies, who I would assume to also be BS3 to be consistent with Imperial Guardsmen.

They would also be S2 T2, since they are a lot more frailer and weaker than humans. Using the stats on classic difficulty, Sectoids have 3HP, and rookies have 4, 5 if you count the armor bonus.

Rookies if I remember, are fresh from like Delta Force, SAS, and Spetsnaz. Not exactly "regular" troopers.

65 aim is about equivalent to 65% of the time they hit, right? 65% chance of hitting is closer to 4/6 (BS4) than 3/6 (BS3). BS4 is fine.

Correct.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

unto the cruel wrote:
I feel like the Imperial Knight rules could almost be copied/pasted for a sectopod, maybe minus Stomp and make the battle cannon a normal one, instead of rapid fire. And losing the void shielding or whatever it's called.

So a normal walker then?

You are correct in that they are intended to be walkers and not monstrous creatures. The Enemy within version is a long ranged sniper/artillery platform, while the Bureau version will be a close in, volume of fire dakkaboat platform.

 Kain wrote:

unto the cruel wrote:
I feel like the Imperial Knight rules could almost be copied/pasted for a sectopod, maybe minus Stomp and make the battle cannon a normal one, instead of rapid fire. And losing the void shielding or whatever it's called.

The Sectopod in either it's Enemy Within or The Bureau form is a wee bit small for superheavy status and isn't half as competent at melee.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
15 feet range?! Blimey, there's no hiding from them

Also, they should be BS3. They only have 65 aim (except in Impossible) in the game, the same as XCOM rookies, who I would assume to also be BS3 to be consistent with Imperial Guardsmen.

They would also be S2 T2, since they are a lot more frailer and weaker than humans. Using the stats on classic difficulty, Sectoids have 3HP, and rookies have 4, 5 if you count the armor bonus.

Rookies if I remember, are fresh from like Delta Force, SAS, and Spetsnaz. Not exactly "regular" troopers.

65 aim is about equivalent to 65% of the time they hit, right? 65% chance of hitting is closer to 4/6 (BS4) than 3/6 (BS3). BS4 is fine.

Correct.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

unto the cruel wrote:
I feel like the Imperial Knight rules could almost be copied/pasted for a sectopod, maybe minus Stomp and make the battle cannon a normal one, instead of rapid fire. And losing the void shielding or whatever it's called.

So a normal walker then?

You are correct in that they are intended to be walkers and not monstrous creatures. The Enemy within version is a long ranged sniper/artillery platform, while the Bureau version will be a close in, volume of fire dakkaboat platform.

I know the game mate, I haven't played within yet (worth the time?), but I've played Bureau and I've played UFO Defence (fantastic if you can look past DOS graphics).

40k actually represents the bureau version perfectly - give them AV11/11/10, then AV13 until the first pen on the front/side (like necrons).

I'd think something like this:

Sectopod:

WS3 BS4 S6 AV11(13)/11(13)/10, HP3 I3 A2

the gun: 18" S6AP4 Heavy 12 with pinning and rending (those things shot very fast in bureau and they definitely kept you pinned down.

Special rules:
Scouts, Deepstrike, Psychic Pilot (if you're doing that for sectoid units) Exposed engines, Elerium armour plating

exposed engines
Roll a D6 whenever a model with this special rule loses a hull point against their rear armour. On a 6, the sectopod becomes immobilised as well as any other damage caused by that attack.

Elerium Armour Plating:
Models with Elerium Armour plating have +2 to their front and side AVs. Should the model take a glancing or penetrating hit through their front or side armour Roll a D6. On a 1, the armour facing no longer benefits from elerium armour plating and reverts to its original AV. on a 2 or 3, the facing loses 1 AV. Should a 4+ be rolled, nothing happens.

Thanks for that.

Mind letting me use that crunch if I credit you?

As for XCOM EU/EW, it's very much worth it. It may well bring the turn based small scale tactics genre back from extinction.