Tyranids shouldnt conform to this edition.

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**ZebioLizard2**

Vineheart01 wrote:
This trend you speak of is more of whatcodex got picked. Eldar tau and sm were always shooty. Assault sm always sucked balls lol csm is shooty only because noone has the balls or brains to do anything but helldrake spam.

Nids and orks might get a shooty buff but I highly doubt assault will vanish.

Except for the fact that CSM assault troops in general suck, won't make their points back, and even the most optimal settings for their mathhammer rely on things that generally won't happen to make them good.

Why gimp yourself to play something that will be beaten by an average list, let alone a dangerous one?

**juraigamer**

Nids are a melee codex, it's just that since they've come out everything everyone who plays in tournaments have run was tergivons, tyrants, gaunts and hive guard.

Their real power comes from their hordes and their tough to kill MC. Spamming MC does not win you the game against a good player, they are used to killing all the 3+ and 2+ armies out there, so you're doomed.

**ZebioLizard2**

juraigamer wrote:
Nids are a melee codex, it's just that since they've come out everything everyone who plays in tournaments have run was tergivons, tyrants, gaunts and hive guard.

Their real power comes from their hordes and their tough to kill MC. Spamming MC does not win you the game against a good player, they are used to killing all the 3+ and 2+ armies out there, so you're doomed.

Actually Nids are not exactly a pure melee codex, they've always been melee/close range shooting with splattering of long range. Thus the 6-12" guns that have always been there.

**juraigamer**

And if you shoot at a target within those ranges, you tend to not be able to charge them in the following melee phase, which isn't the best option for an army with a 6+ armor save.

**ZebioLizard2**

juraigamer wrote:
And if you shoot at a target within those ranges, you tend to not be able to charge them in the following melee phase, which isn't the best option for an army with a 6+ armor save.

For an army with mostly assault weapons? It's not as if you are able to run/charge anymore.

**juraigamer**

Lowering your charge range increases your chance of failure for making it to melee, and staying there thanks to synapse, which keeps you from being shot.

A Nid army doesn't like being shot. Generally the more time you waste shooting is more time it takes you to get to melee.

**Puscifer**

I can see Nids getting a little more shooty, but then again, I got a bad feeling about the Nid Dex.

I have a feeling that the Dex is going to totally change how people's armies are going to be like.

Like a proper power Dex.

In the history of 40k only Marines, Chaos and Nids have gotten a Dex every edition since 2nd.

I'm not sure about 2nd ed and how powerful they were.
3rd was obscene with the unit gen rules, but very fun.
4th was Nidzilla and was a very powerful codex.
5th was a disaster until 6th came along.

6th made them better, but there are some massive holes. For GW to release this book only 3 years after the last one, they must know its bad and they might overcompensate and do a GK to it.

**Kain**

Chaos didn't get a 5e book. Just an FYI.

**Ailaros**

Just relax and give in. Matt Ward wants you to play a shooty rules edition of 40k, and, with one exception, every army since 2007 has been getting progressively much, much shootier and only a little bit choppier (if any choppier at all). Your days of carnifexes crushing through stuff or a huge swarm of gribblies crashing over your enemies in a wave of bloody violence are long gone.

Just accept it. Even shootier tyranid are coming.

**EmilCrane**

I remember back when I first started playing 40k most tyranid players were like

"Shooting phase? Whats that?"

Then in early 5th it was

"Shooting phase? You mean the running phase?"

But now I see shooty tyranids everywhere, or at least tyranid armies with strong shooting elements. Not a fan of nids personally btw, but I am biased in my faction choice.

**Puscifer**

Kain wrote:
Chaos didn't get a 5e book. Just an FYI.

So that was a 4th ed then?

I thought it was 5th.

Oh yeah, we 2.5 CSM Dexs in 3rd.

**xruslanx**

I would bet the OP £50 that tyranids will get an amazing close combat MC in the nex dex. I also expect genestealers to be amazing.

I would also direct the OP to Chaos Demons, as a flying monstrous creature with toughness 6 and a re-rollable 2++ invulnerable save comes crashing into his tau and proceed to fething wreck the tau army.

**Kain**

xruslanx wrote:
I would bet the OP £50 that tyranids will get an amazing close combat MC in the nex dex. I also expect genestealers to be amazing.

I would also direct the OP to Chaos Demons, as a flying monstrous creature with toughness 6 and a re-rollable 2++ invulnerable save comes crashing into his tau and proceed to fething wreck the tau army.

Unless he just kills the grimoire holder and grounds the now vulnerable FMC.

**xruslanx**

Kain wrote:
xruslanx wrote:
I would bet the OP £50 that tyranids will get an amazing close combat MC in the nex dex. I also expect genestealers to be amazing.

I would also direct the OP to Chaos Demons, as a flying monstrous creature with toughness 6 and a re-rollable 2++ invulnerable save comes crashing into his tau and proceed to fething wreck the tau army.

Unless he just kills the grimoire holder and grounds the now vulnerable FMC.

Sure but he'll have to kill 20 horrors first, which with a 3+ g2g (re-rolling ones) that's going to be hard. Not saying it isn't going to happen but realistically a flying monstrous creature is going to get into combat much faster than anyone could take out a unit of horrors with shooting. Remember they have a 5++ invulnerable too for things that ignore cover.

Also a Toughness 6 flying monstrous creature with a 4++ and (iirc) 6 wounds isn't exactly "vulnerable".

**ZebioLizard2**

juraigamer wrote:
Lowering your charge range increases your chance of failure for making it to melee, and staying there thanks to synapse, which keeps you from being shot.

A Nid army doesn't like being shot. Generally the more time you waste shooting is more time it takes you to get to melee.

So you can't just shoot with your assault guns and then assault? I have no clue what your counter argument is aside from "Shooting bad for nids!" despite most being close range guns that you use before charging.

**60mm**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
juraigamer wrote:
Lowering your charge range increases your chance of failure for making it to melee, and staying there thanks to synapse, which keeps you from being shot.

A Nid army doesn't like being shot. Generally the more time you waste shooting is more time it takes you to get to melee.

So you can't just shoot with your assault guns and then assault? I have no clue what your counter argument is aside from "Shooting bad for nids!" despite most being close range guns that you use before charging.

That'd be true in 5e, but then came 6e with random charge distances and allocating wounds from the front. Shooting up close is usually a big gamble for Nids. The more casualties you cause with shooting, the higher you need to roll for your charge. If charges were still a static range it'd be different, but with random rolls it is often not worth the risk of ending your turn a couple inches from the enemy. T3 6+ does not fare well with pointblank firepower.

I hope Nids get a boost to their ability to get into CC, because 6e sucked out the soul of the army. Sure, there is that one basic build that works . . . but that is just sad. If you can't field Hormagaunts, Genestealers and CC Carnifexen competitively then it's not very Nid.

It'd be like Tau having to go CC to stay competitive in 7e. It's straight pants-on-head.

**Dakkamite**

Gutsnagga wrote:
Ok... So just because space marines got some shooting buffs, apparently it's a 6th edition trend to make all armies codices shootier...
The rules certainly favour shooting more than they did in 5th edition, but that's a pretty extreme statement.
There have been like what, 6 6th edition codexes so far I think? Half of them were already shooty armies, so of course they got shooting buffs.
Then you have stuff like Chaos Space Marines who got a mix, which makes sense with what they've already got.
And Demons, who just got crapped on overall.
I also think that Space Marines were primarily a ranged combat army anyway, you generally want the majority of your units (besides assault marines and the like obviously) shooting at the enemy.
I seriously don't think it's a trend for GW to be making armies 'shootier' just because of 6th edition.

So the trend is... make them shooty or make them gak?

Just great.

**Unyielding Hunger**

Kain wrote:
I have a feeling that Pyrovores are probably going to get buffed. Hard.

3 attacks with Torrent, and when taken in 3s, automatic hellstorm templates instead.

**Ailaros**

You know, I think the more useful speculation won't be "which tyranid units will get better in close combat", but rather "which tyranid units will get salvo weapons?"

My guess is termagaunts. They'll become static position holders like every other troops choice that's come out over recent years.

**Kain**

Hive Guard are also probably going to morph into anti-air and skimmer units while Zoanthropes or some new kit takes over fully as anti-tank.

If we're lucky, Hive Guards may just get Interceptor.

**PrinceRaven**

Ailaros wrote:
You know, I think the more useful speculation won't be "which tyranid units will get better in close combat", but rather "which tyranid units will get salvo weapons?"

My guess is termagaunts. They'll become static position holders like every other troops choice that's come out over recent years.

I highly doubt there will be any non-Assault guns in the new codex.

**Gitsmasher**

Rotary wrote:
I ended up talking to my brother in law today and another friend. My brother in law plays BA and our mutual friend plays necrons and tau (yes he chases codexs a bit). After talking for a while we all kind of agreed and hoped that nids will avoid the trend of becoming more shooty. I know this sounds odd but our general impression from the new space marines codex was they added in a bunch of new utility, rules and equipment that aid your army in distanced fighting instead of close combat. So when i look at nids the main shooting capable units i see that do the job for a fair price and/or offer other services are zoan's, hive guard, Devgaunts and flyrants. Zoans and hive guard are dominantly shooting, and of course zoans offer synsapse. Flyrants are fantastic shooters, but with their synapse,mobility, psychic powers and optional Old adv. etc offer a much greater roll than just shooting. I left Carnifex's off due to their costs, trygon primes off due to their deep strike mobility and CC capabilities, Fex's off due to their cost/ poor amount of shot volume at range and warriors off since they seem to get insta gib'd by everything. So my prediction and hope is that gw don't try to conform tyranids to shooting, but allow in abilities that allow them to have a strong CC presence by numbers and MC'S. Don't get me wrong, i think shooting is a important part of our army, and at close ranges something our army does very well, but I don't like the idea of shelling out the points cost to have a MC that is forced into a shooting only roll. In my mind the fact that a creature is a MC lends them very heavily to CC. Things like fear and hammer or wrath never even get to come in to play during a ranged only fight but are something that add up to the high costs of a MC. It is my view and hope that Nids don't fall away from their roots and stay as a CC/mid range army. Am i the only one out there who feels this way? I don't claim to be a 40k expert or a Nid know it all, i simply don't see this army being brought into line with an edition that favors ranged combat so heavily. Does anyone else have an opinion on this? I personally am hoping for plenty of rules to speed up the army and allow assaults out of deep strikes.

Whoa slam on the breaks its a wall of text.

**daedalus**

Peregrine wrote:
My personal hope is that GW refuses to have Tyranids conform to this edition by removing them from the game entirely.

Perhaps they can all finally be devoured by the squat armies chasing them inward from the edges of the universe.

**Tyran**

Kain wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
My personal hope is that GW refuses to have Tyranids conform to this edition by removing them from the game entirely.

You must have been one of those people who hated Half Life because "No living being can produce that much electrcitiy! BAD!" Or Halo because "The Flood is unrealistic, no parasite can function that quickly!"

Kain wrote:
Pouncey wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
My personal hope is that GW refuses to have Tyranids conform to this edition by removing them from the game entirely.

I'm gonna guess this was a comment on:

a- 6e codices having Nids being massacred in the fluff
b- being slaughtered too much while playing games using his own Nid armies.

And that the gruff phrasing was due to:

a- not enough coffee
b- not enough hugs
c- both of the above

However, my post may have been due to:

a- not enough sleep

That is all.

Peregrine hates Daemons and Tyranids for not fitting with his vision of 40k. Which as far as I can tell is some boring hard military scifi that's basically Halo minus the Flood.

If he hates technobabble and space magic, what the

is he doing in a 40k forum?
Last time I checked, not even hard scifi is free of technobabble and space magic.

**Dakkamite**

40k is a fundamentally irrational setting, to try and turn it into a hyper-rational hard science fiction is going to suck the soul out of it worse than any shooty tyranids or CC Tau

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
My personal hope is that GW refuses to have Tyranids conform to this edition by removing them from the game entirely.

I can't tell the intended meaning of this over the internet? Serious or not?

You'd best just ignore him. He's the forum's requisite "guy who whines about EVERYTHING and EVERYONE."

**Gutsnagga**

Well Dakkamite, when you put it like that...

Thanks for the Peregrine classification Ferrum. I am not familiar with any recurring themes behind the dakka veterans posts.

**Solis Luna Astrum**

I think there are couple of changes that could help nids players in this edition and remain 'fluffy'.

First, genestealers need to be able to charge from reserves, flanking or what ever. This would make them a viable unit and not sitting ducks the turn they appear. It would also fore opponents to think about positioning and not hanging back to close to board edges.

Change reserve rolls for nids. Allow nid players to choose when to bring their units in, much like the hive mind controlls the swarm, the player controls when his reserves show up. Player nominates a unit to arrive from reserves, takes a leadership test (based on leadership 10, for the hive mind) and if passed the unit arrives.

Mixed squads. Allow nid players to let different units join together. Warriors are great, but to expensive to take in big units, and easy to kill with ranged weapons. Allow warriors to squad up with gaunt units.

**juraigamer**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
My personal hope is that GW refuses to have Tyranids conform to this edition by removing them from the game entirely.

I can't tell the intended meaning of this over the internet? Serious or not?

You'd best just ignore him. He's the forum's requisite "guy who whines about EVERYTHING and EVERYONE."

Yup, see my signature for more information.

Nids getting a little faster and less focus on MC will be what makes them top tier.

**Kain**

juraigamer wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
My personal hope is that GW refuses to have Tyranids conform to this edition by removing them from the game entirely.

I can't tell the intended meaning of this over the internet? Serious or not?

You'd best just ignore him. He's the forum's requisite "guy who whines about EVERYTHING and EVERYONE."

Yup, see my signature for more information.

Nids getting a little faster and less focus on MC will be what makes them top tier.

I do agree with him on Homosexuality being fine. :/

But I would like for Nidzilla with extra cannon fodder to not be the only truly viable build.