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For the new dex im not a huge BA player but have done in the past and would prefer Vetock or Kelly. I know people dont like kelly but i actually like the DE codex ( aside from mandrakes)

I dont think there is a huge balance issue and there are plenty of differant styles of DE that are effective, its just the netlist point and click is venom spam. But there are differant ways to play and still remain competitive.

 darthnatus wrote:
On the topic of bad Ward fluff why in hell does Calgar kill an Avatar with ease even though he got his ass handed to him by the Swarmlord and only survived because of his Honor Guard? It seems like everybody's killing Avatars these days. In the codex entry for Avatar of Khaine does it just say "Gets his ass handed to him repeatedly."?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the topic of bad Ward fluff why in hell does Calgar kill an Avatar with ease even though he got his ass handed to him by the Swarmlord and only survived because of his Honor Guard? It seems like everybody's killing Avatars these days. In the codex entry for Avatar of Khaine does it just say "Gets his ass handed to him repeatedly."?

Swarmlord is stronger than an avatar. If we are talking about wtfs... (and I have to ask when did the sanguinor come to be? I presome before matt ward wrote the book). The battle of Khartas: Sanguinor vs. Ka'Bandha. What the heck? First of all how does a JUMP pack go into the upper atmosphere? Second of all, how does friggin Sanguinor slay Ka'Bandha whom is supposedly one of the mightiest of the Bloodthirsters? Now that right there is illogically bad writing xD in general.

In terms of who I would want to write the codex.... Vettock or Ward. The CSM book killed my liking of Kelly.

Kangodo wrote:
Orks are from 01-2008.
5th Edition came out 07-2008

Does that help?

Okay. I guess the memory is the first thing to go. It's a damn good 4th edition codex at any rate then. Better than the 5th BA codex at least. Like the Necrons, it was likely written with 5th in mind.

Martel732 wrote:

No, the Orks came out between the marines and the guard. I remember it quite well. There is now no army running on a 4th edition codex.

You remember it quite wrong. It was Orks, then Daemons, then 5th Edition, then Marines.

I guess the Orks should get a codex next then.

Naw wrote:
Personally I do not understand why people complain about the fluff. As long as the rules are solid, units make sense etc I do not care if they suddenly decided that e.g. Ultramarines are direct descendants of smurfs.

People complain about fluff for two reasons. One, if we don't have anything to complain about... then what is life!? What have we been doing on the internet all of these years!? WHAT HAVE WE DONE WITH OUR LIIIVE- anyways joking aside the main reason is simply put beecause most of us enjoy 40k because of the fluff aspect. Let's be frank, the rules are never solid in 40k. There are always large gaping holes, imbalances, sub-par even worthless units versus broken auto-pick units, etc etc. This is a game where they have randomized nigh on everything from what type of commander you are using (my commander says screw being a warlord that hates SM and now has the special rule fear! wooooo....), your psykers don't know what magic they have until they enter the battlefield, random tables on random tables, random terrain, etc. There are so many holes in the game that simply put if we only focused on the rule part of this game most would likely leave and quit right there. Yet for a lot of us the concept of the world is entertaining. It's a sci-fantasy grimdark world that is heavily inspired by blaunche, hp lovecraft, Dune, and still holds remnants of the fables of elves, dwarfs, and the sorts. Many of us enjoy reading the fluff for whatever reason and when something cringe worthy comes out (a grand example is draigo and his conquest of a daemon prince primarch), you can't help but feel irked.

On a side note, to the side argument of who deserves a new codex... I'ma sneak in and say Sisters of Battle can't beat not having a real codex and depending on an out of production white dwarf with out dated models and limited amounts of customization (one troop choice). Then I'd say orks, then nids, then BA, and finally DE. (orks simply because the codex whilst aged well is old, nids whilst have gained much from 6th ed have a lot of biovores, BA are suffering from being built for 5th ed assault in 6th, and DE arguably for the same exact reason).

Martel732 wrote:
Khorne berserkers at least get counter attack as to have some tactical flexibility. And can't they be made scoring?

Khorne Berserkers get Counter-Attack, sure, but Death Company gets FNP and Relentless. GW also nerfed the KB by giving the standard one only 1A.

The scoring thing helps a lot, though. Plus, there may be other units in CSM able to take some heat off KB. I guess being assault, neither unit is really that good. Most people talk from facing DC, but from the other end, you realize how not good they are.

Martel732 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Orks are a 5th edition book. They came out right after Space Marines.

You must be confusing them with Imperial Guard.

Common mistake, non-MEQs all look the same, really.

No, the Orks came out between the marines and the guard. I remember it quite well. There is now no army running on a 4th edition codex.

Your memory is faulty this time: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Orks_(4th_Edition)#.Ujn3r2t5mSM

Yeah, I already addressed that. Maybe the thing was on back order at my FLGS at the time.

Vetock? Only he can make us better than Tau now

Ward would be pretty decent too. As long as we don't get put into the same area as "early 6th edition Necrons", we'll be fine.

Lucarikx

I see a ton of Kelly Hate...... DE are a perfect codex.... daemons are grand, and csm are Damn near perfect too. They aren't broken ward dexes ....with the exception of csm nurgle zombie spam....

Kelly makes you pay for a good army, and writes good fluff. His random tables are amazing.

But the people have spoken.... ward and vetock it is...... although knowing gw they wont even release a new Ba dex for a year or more.

 Jidmah wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
Well I explained what the problem was. I'm not saying we are dire but we certainly are on the backfoot. Understand that I am aware that Orks and Tyranids are also in a bad way as well. However at least Orks can make it into combat with my one or two squads of my Tau. Assault Marines have no chance. Don't know about Tyranids since I haven't played them in a while.

I personally get what the problem is, I've witnessed the issue life on tabletop two or three times. I was just saying that not everyone knows or cares about the little details of any other random army, especially if it's one of the armies that gets repainted with the next codex by half its player base.

As for orks making it into combat - if you want to reliably win games, the only thing that ever should be aiming to be in combat is nob bikers and maybe MANz. Everything else is pretty much getting into combat to lose said combat right there, if it isn't torrented down on the way there anyways. Too much shooting for T4 no save models these days to risk crossing the board.

He took Boyz, lots of boyz. 6 Ork trucks to put them in. He did actually take Bikers as well and a warboss on a bike, as well as some lootas. He did better than some of the other guys there. When I played a guy and his Space Marines before the update he managed to kill one crisis suit and that was it. The Ork player managed to kill my Riptide, a squad of Pathfinders, some Firewarriors. some missile drones and perhaps a broadside if I remember correctly.

EDIT: I forgot, he managed to turn my commander into a squig as well. How on earth could I forget that.

 aapch45 wrote:
I see a ton of Kelly Hate...... DE are a perfect codex.... daemons are grand, and csm are Damn near perfect too. They aren't broken ward dexes ....with the exception of csm nurgle zombie spam....

Kelly makes you pay for a good army, and writes good fluff. His random tables are amazing.

But the people have spoken.... ward and vetock it is...... although knowing gw they wont even release a new Ba dex for a year or more.

Daemons are meh, CSM are horribly unbalanced externally and internally, DE were pretty much venomspam and darklights from day one.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 darthnatus wrote:
On the topic of bad Ward fluff why in hell does Calgar kill an Avatar with ease even though he got his ass handed to him by the Swarmlord and only survived because of his Honor Guard? It seems like everybody's killing Avatars these days. In the codex entry for Avatar of Khaine does it just say "Gets his ass handed to him repeatedly."?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the topic of bad Ward fluff why in hell does Calgar kill an Avatar with ease even though he got his ass handed to him by the Swarmlord and only survived because of his Honor Guard? It seems like everybody's killing Avatars these days. In the codex entry for Avatar of Khaine does it just say "Gets his ass handed to him repeatedly."?

Swarmlord is stronger than an avatar. If we are talking about wtfs... (and I have to ask when did the sanguinor come to be? I presome before matt ward wrote the book). The battle of Khartas: Sanguinor vs. Ka'Bandha. What the heck? First of all how does a JUMP pack go into the upper atmosphere? Second of all, how does friggin Sanguinor slay Ka'Bandha whom is supposedly one of the mightiest of the Bloodthirsters? Now that right there is illogically bad writing xD in general.

In terms of who I would want to write the codex.... Vettock or Ward. The CSM book killed my liking of Kelly.

Well The Sanguinor is supposed to be the manifestation of the spirit of Sanguinius Sanguinius himself has handed Ka'Banhas backside to him on a silver platter many times. One time in Fear to Tread and once more at the defence of terra in the Horus heresy.

Well here's my thoughts:

Aside from the obvious of having their points match the new C:SM ones (with the exception of their Fast vehicles of course) I think for their CT, BA now need to get FC standard, no relying on a SP or the Red Thirst to get it. Its been nerfed enough that it wouldn't be broken, given how little people assault any more in 6th.

DC need a slight points drop but otherwise are fine.

Sanguinary Guard, points are fine, their GLaive Encarmine need a good bost. Either same as relic blades (S+2 AP3) or S4 AP2.

Mephiston and Sanguinor need to be AP2, they just don't make sense otherwise. Sanguinor needs to be T5, or even just the same stats as a DP, since he's basically a "good" DP.

Martel732 wrote:
The scoring thing helps a lot, though. Plus, there may be other units in CSM able to take some heat off KB. I guess being assault, neither unit is really that good. Most people talk from facing DC, but from the other end, you realize how not good they are.

Speak for yourself. They are the only troops unit I can think off that has 5 attacks on the charge, is WS5 and also S5 on the charge. They are awesome, they are the best unit we have for close combat and that includes terminators. Their main problem is a lack of scoring for a troop unit.

Look I'll even show you what I mean. 15 Death Company with a Reclusiarch charging a unit of termies. Reclusiarch is 130pts and 15 DC is 300pts. So 430pts in total.

75 attacks from DC, rerolling hits and wounds.

1) To hit - (2/3)*75 = 50 hits

2) Re-roll - (2/3)*25 = 16.66 further hits = 66.66 hits in total

3) To Wounds - (2/3)*66.66 = 44.44 wounds

4) Re-roll - (2/3)*22.22 = 14.81 further wounds = 59.25 wounds in total

5) Failed Svs - (1/6)59.25 = 9.8 failed saves

So you basically get to kill a 10 man unit of termies in combat BEFORE they even get to hit you back. I didn't even take into account the Chappies attacks there.


Death Company are the most awesome unit we have for CC at the moment. The trouble is they don't score, so you have to plan on wiping you opponent out. I also play Apocalypse at 2400pts, so they just aren't a unit to take for that because they cannot capture objectives.

Our main problem is jump packs, even with DC since their jump packs cost a whopping 15pts each which is ridiculous and considering our army is supposed to lean towards jump packs it weakens our codex quite considerably.

Someone new, unexpected. And utterly, completely, and entirely insane.

Like Ward on the finest Cocaine.

It'll be fun!

The DC rarely get to charge. That's why they are bad. They are targeted and eliminated as the only truly legit HTH threat in most lists. I'll take FNP TH/SS terminators led by Corbulo over these guys anyday if I don't care about scoring.

DC not scoring isn't the issue as much as their cost being disportionate to their abilities, especially in this edition. A points drop would sort most of the problems out without making them scoring.

They already lost the penalty for Rage, no point in taking away their other penalty that's supposed to counter their CC prowess when it can be fixed by putting them at a lower points cost.

Martel732 wrote:
The DC rarely get to charge. That's why they are bad. They are targeted and eliminated as the only truly legit HTH threat in most lists. I'll take FNP TH/SS terminators led by Corbulo over these guys anyday if I don't care about scoring.

I take mine in a land raider crusader. That's why there are 15 with a reclusiarch.

My 1500pt list for blood angels is basically this.

Reclusiarch
15 Death Company (Some weapons with them) in a land raider crusader
Death Company Dreadnought with a drop pod
Ten terminators with thunderhammers and stormshields
Sanguinary priest to attach to the termies.

Costs a lot of points but it packs a major punch

Well Maybe i should go ahead and write it then? I mean I am pretty creative.

ClockworkZion wrote:
DC not scoring isn't the issue as much as their cost being disportionate to their abilities, especially in this edition. A points drop would sort most of the problems out without making them scoring.

They already lost the penalty for Rage, no point in taking away their other penalty that's supposed to counter their CC prowess when it can be fixed by putting them at a lower points cost.

Sorry can you expand on this? I'm not sure what you mean. Can you clarify what penalties you are talking about. I think the first one you mean was rage under 5th edition when they couldn't move like they wanted but I'm not sure what other penalty you are talking about.

 Jancoran wrote:
Well Maybe i should go ahead and write it then? I mean I am pretty creative.

But will you snort Cocaine while writing it?

 Kain wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Well Maybe i should go ahead and write it then? I mean I am pretty creative.

But will you snort Cocaine while writing it?

I'll write it instead. I already have the new rules for Dante is my head.

WS-10 BS-10 S-10 T-10 W-10 I-10 A-10 LD-10 SV-2+

He also has a 3++ invulnerable. Can be 2++ for one turn and basically kills you with his pinkie only. His axe is AP2 and strikes in initiative order and everyone else is basically scared to death of him. All for a measly 250pts.


Any Questions?

Yes..
Why does the oldest Loyalist Marine STILL not have Eternal Warrior?

Besides, WS10 means nothing if you still need a 3+ to hit -_-'
Take this scenario: Sanguinor becomes a FMC (Apoc-rule), charges a vehicle and STILL misses every single freaking attack.
Because that is what happened to me.

Kangodo wrote:
Yes..
Why does the oldest Loyalist Marine STILL not have Eternal Warrior?

Good call, obviously my entry for Dante was way underpowered.

Besides, WS10 means nothing if you still need a 3+ to hit -_-'

It means he can still hit things that are WS9 on 3s. For instance Mortarian doesn't have anything on this bad boy.

Take this scenario: Sanguinor becomes a FMC (Apoc-rule), charges a vehicle and STILL misses every single freaking attack.
Because that is what happened to me.

Some times we all get bad luck. The other day I rolled 4 one's to wound and I only needed two's.

However point taken. We need Dante to hit more reliably. We can't have him underpowered now, so we should get him to re-roll his failed hits and wounds in every phase of combat. Now everybody else can go and die.

 DarthOvious wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
DC not scoring isn't the issue as much as their cost being disportionate to their abilities, especially in this edition. A points drop would sort most of the problems out without making them scoring.

They already lost the penalty for Rage, no point in taking away their other penalty that's supposed to counter their CC prowess when it can be fixed by putting them at a lower points cost.

Sorry can you expand on this? I'm not sure what you mean. Can you clarify what penalties you are talking about. I think the first one you mean was rage under 5th edition when they couldn't move like they wanted but I'm not sure what other penalty you are talking about.

In 5th they had to chase the nearest enemy unit (which could result in 6-7 turns pf them chasing an empty Rhino) and could not score. That's what I meant by their penalties. Rage has tuned in a handy bonus now so the real penalty this edition is the scoring, which is still really important.

A points drop while mantaining their inability to score would still allow them to function in the Troops slot without coming off as cheesy. That's all I was aiming at really.

 DarthOvious wrote:
Good call, obviously my entry for Dante was way underpowered.

Not underpowered, but we all know how the current codex does it: "Let's give Sanguinor BS5 and increase the cost by 50 points despite him having no ranged weapons!"
Or let's put Dante at I6 with a hefty cost and then give him an unwieldy weapon!
Even his BS makes me cry.. I don't need BS5 for that "once in a lifetime" when I shoot at a vehicle with him.

It's my biggest problem with the BA-characters: They bring too much and are too expensive.
I'm a SC-fanboy and that's one of the reasons I started BA, they looked so great.
But now with the new C:SM I feel so jealous since they are all so great!
Cassius is the same price as our Reclusiarch xD that is just insane
Calgar can easily beat up Sanguinor any day of the week.
One of the few things we have left is Corbulo and I really want him to have a Jump Pack!

Some times we all get bad luck. The other day I rolled 4 one's to wound and I only needed two's.

It's my MO: Sucky at shooting and hitting, but I win most games because I hardly ever fail an armour-save.
Except when I play terminators. Then I always fail on armour.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
DC not scoring isn't the issue as much as their cost being disportionate to their abilities, especially in this edition. A points drop would sort most of the problems out without making them scoring.

They already lost the penalty for Rage, no point in taking away their other penalty that's supposed to counter their CC prowess when it can be fixed by putting them at a lower points cost.

Sorry can you expand on this? I'm not sure what you mean. Can you clarify what penalties you are talking about. I think the first one you mean was rage under 5th edition when they couldn't move like they wanted but I'm not sure what other penalty you are talking about.

In 5th they had to chase the nearest enemy unit (which could result in 6-7 turns pf them chasing an empty Rhino) and could not score. That's what I meant by their penalties. Rage has tuned in a handy bonus now so the real penalty this edition is the scoring, which is still really important.

A points drop while mantaining their inability to score would still allow them to function in the Troops slot without coming off as cheesy. That's all I was aiming at really.

OK, fair enough. Personally I think the points drop needs to be on the jump packs. 15pts for a jump pack is just way too much for one wound models. I'm ok with 20pts as base cost though, but I won't argue if they put their cost down further. They do get a shocking 5 attacks when charging and feel no pain, so compared to other marines they are not that far off for points and do compete against them. The main problem is that 6th edition is shooty hammer, especially with Tau and Eldar getting updates to their shooting skills. Marines without some sort of delivery system (read transport) just get shot up before they can come in contact with the enemy. I'm afraid for marines in general you need transports, transports and more transports.