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Martel732 wrote:
I guess the Orks should get a codex next then.

I'd just like to point out that you just flipped your opinion based on the release date of the book, the most irrelevant piece of information in the entire discussion. You're truly amusing.

I really couldn't care less if the codex was from the Gorka Morka area, if you could at least play the game in any other way than spamming shooting units in a dedicated assault army.

Kangodo wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
Good call, obviously my entry for Dante was way underpowered.

Not underpowered, but we all know how the current codex does it: "Let's give Sanguinor BS5 and increase the cost by 50 points despite him having no ranged weapons!"
Or let's put Dante at I6 with a hefty cost and then give him an unwieldy weapon!
Even his BS makes me cry.. I don't need BS5 for that "once in a lifetime" when I shoot at a vehicle with him.

Our codex certainly hasn't aged well. Our jump pack troops in general took a heavy hitting. They just don't do much anymore for their cost. They usually get blasted away by firepower before hopping up the table. The unwieldy thing for axes and AP3 power swords is what did it. A lot of our characters have power weapons & have a high initiative. We were meant to strike first in combats but now we either strike first but don't do anything to 2+ or we strike last and our guy only gets +1 for his strength. I know that this game mechanic works like this for everyone but then there is no point in our characters having high initiative in the first place.

It's my biggest problem with the BA-characters: They bring too much and are too expensive.
I'm a SC-fanboy and that's one of the reasons I started BA, they looked so great.
But now with the new C:SM I feel so jealous since they are all so great!
Cassius is the same price as our Reclusiarch xD that is just insane
Calgar can easily beat up Sanguinor any day of the week.
One of the few things we have left is Corbulo and I really want him to have a Jump Pack!

Sanguinor is a classic example. He used to be a character killer back in 5th edition. He could kill Logan Grimnar with ease. That was his specialist role. He isn't even any good at doing that any more. Now Logan will hand him his backside on a silver platter.

Some times we all get bad luck. The other day I rolled 4 one's to wound and I only needed two's.

It's my MO: Sucky at shooting and hitting, but I win most games because I hardly ever fail an armour-save.
Except when I play terminators. Then I always fail on armour.

I'm surprised you still get 3+ armour saves with all the AP3 or better going about these days.

Anyone who makes close combat more viable in this new edition.

 Jidmah wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess the Orks should get a codex next then.

I'd just like to point out that you just flipped your opinion based on the release date of the book, the most irrelevant piece of information in the entire discussion. You're truly amusing.

To be fair, if you are still playing with a 4th ed codex, then you should get a new one for that reason alone. I understand you need an update to make your army work like it should again but also I don't see why you should have to wait longer than anybody else in order to get an update.

I really couldn't care less if the codex was from the Gorka Morka area, if you could at least play the game in any other way than spamming shooting units in a dedicated assault army.

It will be interesting to see what the new Ork codex will be like. I'm expecting big changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lemartes12 wrote:
Anyone who makes close combat more viable in this new edition.

I hear that.

 DarthOvious wrote:
I'm afraid for marines in general you need transports, transports and more transports.

Unfortunately transports are something we don't really have. Rhino/Razorback are not viable for anything but giving first blood. Blowing smoke doesn't help when opponent can ignore cover and hull points mechanism takes care of the rest.

Land raiders are too expensive for what they do and can anyway be shot to pieces thanks to the HP mechanism. That leaves us with drop pods, but then we sacrifice mobility.

So, give us cheap jump packs as rhino/razorback were not fixed in Codex DA or SM.

Naw wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
I'm afraid for marines in general you need transports, transports and more transports.

Unfortunately transports are something we don't really have. Rhino/Razorback are not viable for anything but giving first blood. Blowing smoke doesn't help when opponent can ignore cover and hull points mechanism takes care of the rest.

Its a good point, they do give up first blood rather easily and they're not exactly the most resiliant of things, but running marines naked will just see your squad dead first turn anyway and you lose first blood anyway. Running with or without a transport really makes no difference, you still lose first blood either way but at least transports provide a slight bit of protection and if you're lucky enough to get first turn then you can get to the middle of the table easily berfore having to disembark. Blood Angel Rhino's going 18" is faster than 12" jump packs. In a lot of cases its cheaper than equiping your guys with jump packs as well since its a ridiculous 10pts per marine in some cases e.g Honour Guard.

Land raiders are too expensive for what they do and can anyway be shot to pieces thanks to the HP mechanism. That leaves us with drop pods, but then we sacrifice mobility.

Land Raiders are the best ground transport we have at the moment. Other than that you are looking at a Stormraven, which is a fairly decent choice as well. Then again, I have a Caestus Assault Ram from forge world, so thats even better. Drop pods are good for shooting units but unfortunately no assault from then so it is not ideal for assault units. Drop pods are what I use sternguard for with combi-meltas.

So, give us cheap jump packs as rhino/razorback were not fixed in Codex DA or SM.

I agree, our jump packs need to be cheaper, especially since we are supposed to be geared in that direction. Rhino's and Razorbacks are not ideal but they are still better than running our marines naked at the moment.

Overklll in HTH just gets you shoot off the table the next turn. You actually want to win the CC on the 2nd assault phase, not the first.

 DarthOvious wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
DC not scoring isn't the issue as much as their cost being disportionate to their abilities, especially in this edition. A points drop would sort most of the problems out without making them scoring.

They already lost the penalty for Rage, no point in taking away their other penalty that's supposed to counter their CC prowess when it can be fixed by putting them at a lower points cost.

Sorry can you expand on this? I'm not sure what you mean. Can you clarify what penalties you are talking about. I think the first one you mean was rage under 5th edition when they couldn't move like they wanted but I'm not sure what other penalty you are talking about.

In 5th they had to chase the nearest enemy unit (which could result in 6-7 turns pf them chasing an empty Rhino) and could not score. That's what I meant by their penalties. Rage has tuned in a handy bonus now so the real penalty this edition is the scoring, which is still really important.

A points drop while mantaining their inability to score would still allow them to function in the Troops slot without coming off as cheesy. That's all I was aiming at really.

OK, fair enough. Personally I think the points drop needs to be on the jump packs. 15pts for a jump pack is just way too much for one wound models. I'm ok with 20pts as base cost though, but I won't argue if they put their cost down further. They do get a shocking 5 attacks when charging and feel no pain, so compared to other marines they are not that far off for points and do compete against them. The main problem is that 6th edition is shooty hammer, especially with Tau and Eldar getting updates to their shooting skills. Marines without some sort of delivery system (read transport) just get shot up before they can come in contact with the enemy. I'm afraid for marines in general you need transports, transports and more transports.

I think 20 points -counting- 5 point Jump Packs would be about right, at least in my head, for a non-scoring troop choice that is primarilly a CC unit in an edition that doesn't reward you for playing them.

25 is about the highest I'd feel comfortable seeing them priced however. (again, with Jump Packs). Either way I feel the Jump Packs should be about 5-10 points depending on what the initial cost of the Death Company models is.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
DC not scoring isn't the issue as much as their cost being disportionate to their abilities, especially in this edition. A points drop would sort most of the problems out without making them scoring.

They already lost the penalty for Rage, no point in taking away their other penalty that's supposed to counter their CC prowess when it can be fixed by putting them at a lower points cost.

Sorry can you expand on this? I'm not sure what you mean. Can you clarify what penalties you are talking about. I think the first one you mean was rage under 5th edition when they couldn't move like they wanted but I'm not sure what other penalty you are talking about.

In 5th they had to chase the nearest enemy unit (which could result in 6-7 turns pf them chasing an empty Rhino) and could not score. That's what I meant by their penalties. Rage has tuned in a handy bonus now so the real penalty this edition is the scoring, which is still really important.

A points drop while mantaining their inability to score would still allow them to function in the Troops slot without coming off as cheesy. That's all I was aiming at really.

OK, fair enough. Personally I think the points drop needs to be on the jump packs. 15pts for a jump pack is just way too much for one wound models. I'm ok with 20pts as base cost though, but I won't argue if they put their cost down further. They do get a shocking 5 attacks when charging and feel no pain, so compared to other marines they are not that far off for points and do compete against them. The main problem is that 6th edition is shooty hammer, especially with Tau and Eldar getting updates to their shooting skills. Marines without some sort of delivery system (read transport) just get shot up before they can come in contact with the enemy. I'm afraid for marines in general you need transports, transports and more transports.

I think 20 points -counting- 5 point Jump Packs would be about right, at least in my head, for a non-scoring troop choice that is primarilly a CC unit in an edition that doesn't reward you for playing them.

25 is about the highest I'd feel comfortable seeing them priced however. (again, with Jump Packs). Either way I feel the Jump Packs should be about 5-10 points depending on what the initial cost of the Death Company models is.

Correct. 5 points for a jump pack is what I'd wager. Even then doing 3pts per model for jump packs based on vanguard vets in the new SM codex is what I was thinking. Afterall their CC ability is included in their base pts cost.

 DarthOvious wrote:
Correct. 5 points for a jump pack is what I'd wager. Even then doing 3pts per model for jump packs based on vanguard vets in the new SM codex is what I was thinking. Afterall their CC ability is included in their base pts cost.

The only reason I think the packs should cost more than 5 is if DC drop below 20ppm. At like 16-18 ppm it'd be appropiate to charge a little more since that horde can be a lot bigger so we don't see all jump DC lists becoming the new spam option. That or add in a new rule to give them the old effects of Rage to balance out the low points cost

Honestly I think DC could go back to being a 0-1 choice, but make the unit range from 3-50 models in size. I mean all Death Company are basically herded togethere anyways, so it'd be appropiate as a restriction.

DC are still a 0-1 choice
You'd need a special character to have multiple units.

Kangodo wrote:
DC are still a 0-1 choice
You'd need a special character to have multiple units.

I forgot because I only ever see them fielded with multiple units at the same time.

Well we'll retract that thought of mine then!

I have never seen Astorath nor have I played him.
He's another one of those characters who sucks due to 6th edition.
It's basically a Chaplain with an axe.. But wait, you trade an attack against inv's that must be rerolled =/
His Shadow of the Primarch is also crappy, since I hardly care about Red Thirst.

Again, a single squad of DC will be picked out and eliminated with Tau/Eldar firepower. They can manage the rest of the weak sauce BA list.

 DarthOvious wrote:
Land Raiders are the best ground transport we have at the moment. Other than that you are looking at a Stormraven, which is a fairly decent choice as well. Then again, I have a Caestus Assault Ram from forge world, so thats even better. Drop pods are good for shooting units but unfortunately no assault from then so it is not ideal for assault units. Drop pods are what I use sternguard for with combi-meltas.

That is another thing. Rather than fixing it in the codex we must look at FW. As proven, the LR Achilles for example.

Naw wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
Land Raiders are the best ground transport we have at the moment. Other than that you are looking at a Stormraven, which is a fairly decent choice as well. Then again, I have a Caestus Assault Ram from forge world, so thats even better. Drop pods are good for shooting units but unfortunately no assault from then so it is not ideal for assault units. Drop pods are what I use sternguard for with combi-meltas.

That is another thing. Rather than fixing it in the codex we must look at FW. As proven, the LR Achilles for example.

Well we need to wait until our next codex. Unfortunately we are near the bottom for the moment.