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Master of the Forge has a servo-harness. Servo-harness "gives the bearer an extra servo arm". How many servoarms Master of the forge has without harness? 0, 1, 3000? It does not say it in the SM codex. Looking at the figure MotF has 2 servoarms, so it should be 1? I am worried running into rules lawyers and getting into an argument over the matter.

He has 2 if he has a servo harness, 1 if he doesn't have the harness.

Please tell me where did you find this information.

looking at the model for one.........

That and the fact that only models previously equiped with a servo arm can take a servo harness.......

Seems both of you have not looked at the codex. MotF starts with the servo-harness and does not "take it". Techmarine starts with a servoarm and can take a servo-harness as an upgrade. I there was not the word "extra" in servo-harnesses' description there would be no problem.

An oversight in the rules.
I'd suggest the common sense approach.

A servo-harness is an upgraded servo arm. Giving an extra servo arm and the shooting attacks.

Just because the MotF starts out with an upgraded servo arm as standard doesn't make it less of an upgraded servo arm.

 d-usa wrote:
A servo-harness is an upgraded servo arm. Giving an extra servo arm and the shooting attacks.

Just because the MotF starts out with an upgraded servo arm as standard doesn't make it less of an upgraded servo arm.

I'll agree with this. It should also be noted that the additional attack from the second servo arm is included on the MotF's profile. If the option on the techmarine was to replace a servo arm with a servo harness I would disagree, but it is an upgrade.

 DJGietzen wrote:
It should also be noted that the additional attack from the second servo arm is included on the MotF's profile.

Where does it say this? Bonus attacks are not usually included in the profile and if they are, it specifies that it has a bonus attack(s) included.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
A servo-harness is an upgraded servo arm. Giving an extra servo arm and the shooting attacks.

Just because the MotF starts out with an upgraded servo arm as standard doesn't make it less of an upgraded servo arm.

I'll agree with this. It should also be noted that the additional attack from the second servo arm is included on the MotF's profile. If the option on the techmarine was to replace a servo arm with a servo harness I would disagree, but it is an upgrade.

No it's not. Is the extra attack from a CCW/pistol in the captain or Chapter Master entry? No, then why would it be built into the MotF profile?

Its not, for some reason my brain thought all bonuses from default equipment were included on the profile, not just things like the +1 toughness for a bike. Of course thinking about it fore more then a second I can remember thats 100% not how it works so I feel stupid.

On another forum (Sotavasara) people think that Master of the Forge only has 1 servoarm, because nowhere it says that he has any other servoarm, only one that comes with servo-harness.

The only evidence to him having the option of having two servo-arms is that the harness gives an extra, however he doen not have an option to a servo-arm in the first place, that thing is Techmarine only. I figure it's because originally you could only make one attack with a servo-arm, now he can make all his attacks with it.

It's just a slightly poorly worded way of saying that servo-harness includes a servo-arm and the shooting weapons (also after the "extra", nowhere does it say he has more plasma cutters or flamers either).

Extra impies that there should be one to start, but the working is poor. This needs a FAQ. IMHO a strict RAW reading implies that you only get one servo arm with the harness.

Tradition and models say one thing, but the rules say another. I doubt that it's RAI, but until they FAQ it, I'd have to say just one arm.

RAW is clear on Master of the Forge. He has base 0 servoarms + 1 additional from servo harness. Thus he has 1 servoarm.

The situation with the Techmarine is a bit more complicated.

It says: Upgrade X to Y. In this case X is servo arm and Y is the harness. Now, we have two possibilities. Either

a) Upgrade means that X is first deleted and then Y is added.
b) Upgrade means that Y is added in addition to X.

Situation a): Techmarine replaces his servoarm with the harness thus getting one 0+1 servo arms. Space marine squads (and ork mobs and every other upgrade X to Y too) replace the model upgraded with the upgraded version. For example a sergeant with a veteran sergeant or a boy with a nob.

Situation b): Techmarine keeps his servoarm and gets the harness thus gettin 1+1 servo arms. Space marine squads (and similar) get the upgraded model in addition to keeping the upgradee. SM squads can end up with 11 models (9 basic, 1 sergeant, 1 veteran sergeant). They don't fit into a Rhino anymore.

You need to choose either option for all upgrade X to Y situations. You can't choose to upgrade some with a) and others with b). You choose either or.

I don't have my rulebook with me at the moment. It is possible that "upgraded" is clarified in the rulebook. If it isn't, then you need to choose. The "common sense" way is that if you upgrade X to Y you don't keep X.

Looking at the model is the wrong way to do things (with the example of power weapons). If I put 10 lascannons on my space marines, do they have 10 lascannons? Yes by looking at the models. No by looking at the rules.

The entry for the Servo Harness says 'Extra Servo Arm."

ex·tra
/ˈekstrə/
Adjective
Added to an existing or usual amount or number.
Adverb
To a greater extent than usual; especially: "he is trying to be extra good".
Noun
An item in addition to what is usual or strictly necessary.

RAW A servo Harness has 2 Servo Arms. The usual number of Servo Arms is 1. An extra Servo Arm is 2. If it only had 1 arm, then it would say "A Servo Harness gives the wearer a Servo Arm..."

As long as you agree that it is at least 2, it doesn't matter if it is actually 10 or 1000 arms as Servo Arms have weapon profiles now including 'Specialist Weapon". Since there is no allowance within the rules to fight with more than 2 weapons at once 2, 10 or 1000, a servo Harness is only going to grant you the bonus for fighting with 2 specialist weapons once.

Servo arms no longer provide additional attacks outside of the interaction between them and the Specialist Weapon rule.

Th0rh4mm3r wrote:
The entry for the Servo Harness says 'Extra Servo Arm."

ex·tra
/ˈekstrə/
Adjective
Added to an existing or usual amount or number.
Adverb
To a greater extent than usual; especially: "he is trying to be extra good".
Noun
An item in addition to what is usual or strictly necessary.

RAW A servo Harness has 2 Servo Arms. The usual number of Servo Arms is 1. An extra Servo Arm is 2. If it only had 1 arm, then it would say "A Servo Harness gives the wearer a Servo Arm..."

As long as you agree that it is at least 2, it doesn't matter if it is actually 10 or 1000 arms as Servo Arms have weapon profiles now including 'Specialist Weapon". Since there is no allowance within the rules to fight with more than 2 weapons at once 2, 10 or 1000, a servo Harness is only going to grant you the bonus for fighting with 2 specialist weapons once.

Servo arms no longer provide additional attacks outside of the interaction between them and the Specialist Weapon rule.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the harness doesn't up the number of arms you have by one. It is definitely +1 "Added to an existing or usual amount or number." But 0+1 is a valid mathematical operation. Where in the codex does it say what the base number of servo arms a MotF/techmarine comes with? The default is if it doesn't say you have something, you don't have it. If it said the harness was an upgraded servo arm, or in some concrete, rules-driven way connecting them, we could make work with that. But as far as I can tell, there is no link between the two for us to base RAW arguments on.

This is obviously a RAI oversight. I suspect that most players will just continue playing it as two servo arms. But if you play in a strict RAW environment, expect to be called out on it. At least until the FAQ comes out.

MOTF comes with a harness. So he is a 2/2 attack profile int 4 /1 and can shoot two weapons in the shooting phase.

Remember that's 2 attacks at initiative 4 and 2 at initiative 1.

Lungpickle wrote:
MOTF comes with a harness. So he is a 2/2 attack profile int 4 /1 and can shoot two weapons in the shooting phase.

Remember that's 2 attacks at initiative 4 and 2 at initiative 1.

Actually it seems that servo-arms no longer grant an extra separate profile attack. Judging by the errata to the older books, it's now just a melee weapon with a distinct profile. With a servo harness you'd get +1 attack when attacking with a servo-arm though, since you'd have 2 specialist weapons.

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
MOTF comes with a harness. So he is a 2/2 attack profile int 4 /1 and can shoot two weapons in the shooting phase.

Remember that's 2 attacks at initiative 4 and 2 at initiative 1.

Actually it seems that servo-arms no longer grant an extra separate profile attack. Judging by the errata to the older books, it's now just a melee weapon with a distinct profile. With a servo harness you'd get +1 attack when attacking with a servo-arm though, since you'd have 2 specialist weapons.

This is correct.
The errata to servo arms changed how models with servo arms fight in CC.

A MoTF has base 2 attacks and plus 1 attack for having two servo arms(harness) that can either fight at Init 4 with his bolt pistol or at Init 1 with the Servo Arms.

add +1 attacks on the charge.

40k-noob wrote:

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
MOTF comes with a harness. So he is a 2/2 attack profile int 4 /1 and can shoot two weapons in the shooting phase.

Remember that's 2 attacks at initiative 4 and 2 at initiative 1.

Actually it seems that servo-arms no longer grant an extra separate profile attack. Judging by the errata to the older books, it's now just a melee weapon with a distinct profile. With a servo harness you'd get +1 attack when attacking with a servo-arm though, since you'd have 2 specialist weapons.

This is correct.
The errata to servo arms changed how models with servo arms fight in CC.

A MoTF has base 2 attacks and plus 1 attack for having two servo arms(harness) that can either fight at Init 4 with his bolt pistol or at Init 1 with the Servo Arms.

add +1 attacks on the charge.

Close but not quite. A MotF either has 2(3) attacks at Init 1 with the Servo Harness due to having 2 unwieldy,specialist weapons , OR he has 2 attacks at base iniative with the bolt pistol.

He only gets the +1 attack if he fights at init 1, or spends points on a second CCW of some sort.

Edit: Oh yes, forgot to mention, they copied the wording for the servo harness word for word from Codex: Dark Angels The only reason this hasnt come up before now is Dark Angels dont have MotF's

It would be nice if people read the codex that we are talking about instead of remembering ye olden ways their grandfather used to play with. As it stands now by the RAW MotF seems to have only 1 servoarm, so does not have 2 specialist weapons to attack with.

A servo-harness is an upgraded servo arm.

A MotF starts out with an upgraded servo-arm.

It's really not that complicated.

and if he takes a conversion beamer? Does it replace his servo harness still? leaving him without any servo arms?

 Exergy wrote:
and if he takes a conversion beamer? Does it replace his servo harness still? leaving him without any servo arms?

That's clearly said in the army list.
He does replace his harness for the beamer.

I just come up with this issue. My outlook is that there is a few ways to look at it.

1. The MOF has a Harness. Ok so on p125 it says a harness gives the bearer and extra servo arm. The Key there is the extra. Why would it say extra servo arm when 2 of the 3 models that can have it (techmarines, MOFs, and techmarine gunners) are not listed as having a servo arm. Only the Techmarine is. The techmarine gunner also does not say servo arm it just says harness. This to me implies that they are supposed to have the standard servo arm but they have chosen to word it as just harness when that upgrade is taken.

2. It does no say he has one so he just has a harness which means he has the 1 servo arm. Ok this is outright taking it as it is stated I guess but I do not agree with it.

Now before you rage. I want to say why I do not agree with it.

For a start. The techmarine gunner model has a harness and an extra servo arm. So the model has 2 servo arms and that is not questionable. If they wanted it to only be one they would only have one servo arm on the harness.
And 2. On p132 there is a picture of a techmarine model with a servo harness (again with 2 servo arms) That is listed as Master of the Forge with Servo harness. Ok that cannot be questioned again there is a model with 2 servo arms not one.

Ok my closer here

As the Servo Harness states as said before that it gives the bearer an EXTRA servo arm. In my mind that means that when you remove a servo harness you are left with a servo arm reguardless of how the wargear is listed. IE you have a Beamer and a servo arm.
This is common sense in my eyes. If it is wrong then The pictures I have referenced are the only example in a codex that I know of of models having the wrong wargear. IE no thunderfire gunners should have 2 servo arms on the model and nor should the one listed as a master of the forge.

I now await flaming

PS I know how old this thread is but this issue has not changed and I want peoples views on it now?

It worked the same way in the old codex. Servo harness was +1 arm and plasma pistol + flamer. Remove harness it still has starting servo arm.

You can only really argue an opinion of intent based on the word 'extra' either way its pretty hard to discuss that in any detail. RAW, MOTF does not have a base Servo arm.

 Nem wrote:
You can only really argue an opinion of intent based on the word 'extra' either way its pretty hard to discuss that in any detail. RAW, MOTF does not have a base Servo arm.

What are you talking about? Who mentioned intent? And what book are you reading?

 juraigamer wrote:

 Nem wrote:
You can only really argue an opinion of intent based on the word 'extra' either way its pretty hard to discuss that in any detail. RAW, MOTF does not have a base Servo arm.

What are you talking about? Who mentioned intent? And what book are you reading?

... C:SM. My confusion is over how does MOTF end up with 2 servo arms when none are listed.
I was responding to Truffle who was debating intent.