HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Edition - Crowdfunding Shutdown yet again.

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**Taarnak**

RiTides wrote:
...despite not being connected to the original game in any way

Neither is Moon Design.

(As an aside, I know that the RuneQuest creator claimed that he originally wanted to use HeroQuest. But since he sat on his hands for nearly 30 years, that dog doesn't really hunt. HeroQuest as a TM worldwide will be associated far more with the Milton Bradley/GW game than it ever will be with RuneQuest/Glorantha (sp?).)

So, honestly curious: Why does Moon Design's TM deserve primary consideration?

As I stated before, this whole affair smacks of Trademark-trolling of the highest order. With Hasbro being used as the leverage/threat.

~Eric

**weeble1000**

RiTides wrote:
Because clearly the Spanish copyright holder is the one who deserves all the cash, despite not being connected to the original game in any way

It's not a big deal, but let's not pretend that this is GameZone's baby. A guy who owns the trademark in Poland could do the exact same thing, and have just as much right to it as GameZone.

I think there is a little bit of a disconnect. I don't think that the 25th Anniversary HeroQuest game is GameZone's 'baby' or that GameZone is somehow inherently entitled to make the product. But it is a fact that GameZone ran a rather successful Kickstarter campaign.

If you look at the situation from GameZone's perspective, irrespective of the legality of the product, GameZone's Kickstarter campaign suffered considerable harm. It suffered this harm due to an action taken by Moon Design. Erogo, GameZone has a pretty concrete reason to feel harmed, especially considering that GameZone believes it is allowed to create and sell the product.

So if you consider how the situation can get resolved without harmful conflict going forward, all I am saying is that Moon Design made that a whole lot harder. I am also saying that Moon Design has virtually no reasonable basis to believe that it could be exposed to any liability in connection with GameZone's behavior regarding the 25th Anniversary HeroQuest game.

**easysauce**

so stupid...

put a space in heroquest,

or call it heroes quest and be done with it

I was really looking forward to this

**Agamemnon2**

Well, they're promising an end to this uncertainty, at least. Anyone want to place bets on which way KS will turn?

**JudgeShamgar**

Is it irony, or translation that this is the tag line on the Heroquest website:

WELCOME TO 25TH HEROQUEST EDITION!

Everything you will ever wait is here.

**RiTides**

Taarnak wrote:
So, honestly curious: Why does Moon Design's TM deserve primary consideration?

It doesn't. They're all in the same boat in my eyes- GameZone, Moon Design, hypothetical dude with the trademark in Poland. Somehow GameZone has been portrayed as having special rights to make this game, and all I'm saying is that they have no more rights than anyone else.

But, Kickstarter is in the US, and so Moon Design having the rights to the name in the US means they're the only ones who are going to be allowed (by Kickstarter) to greenlight a Kickstarter campaign using that name. It'd be pretty intersting if someone saw the half million raised and tried to get a HeroQuest off the ground in another country before GameZone gets theirs launched elsewhere... hence the hypothetical.

Agamemnon2 wrote:
Well, they're promising an end to this uncertainty, at least. Anyone want to place bets on which way KS will turn?

The sooner the better! As DaveC said on the last page, the fact that the campaign is still suspended after Kickstarter has given GameZone their reply would mean the house money is on it being a negative for it to continue with that name. As someone above said, though, maybe they'll just tweak the name and be able to move on with it...

**Psychman**

Well lets put this one up here, in defence of Moon Design's actions in this whole affair.

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14182137#14182137

"Just so we said it first, here is our last email to Gamezone clarifying our position:

Dionisio and Daniel -

Since it appears likely you are going to announce that you plan to do a crowdsourcing campaign on a platform other than Kickstarter, let me make a few things perfectly clear:

1. Indiegogo is a US company (a California corporation) and subject to all the same issues as Kickstarter;

2. We are unlikely to object to a truly Spanish crowdsource campaign (i.e., a Spanish corporation is the crowdsource platform) - as we do not have a registered trademark in Spain (although since the Heroquest RPG has been in the stream commerce in Spain for over a decade we likely have some background rights to the name as we are currently using it), but we will strongly object to you using a "disguised" US corporation (such as doing a Kickstarter campaign denominated in pounds or Canadian dollars).

3. As you are aware, we weren't trying to get a "we won't get sued letter" from Hasbro (and although it was not discussed, we would be reluctant to rely on an indemnification clause from you) - what we wanted to see was a copy of a license from Hasbro allowing you to remake their game. We were - and still are - unwilling to give someone a license to our registered trademark to market an unlicensed remake of somebody's else's game.

4. Let us remind you that Hasbro (and potentially Games Workshop) likely have the legal right to challenge any unlicensed remake of their game. Making a remake called the "25th Anniversary Heroquest edition" in any country seems to us to be an extremely risky strategy and I'd strongly recommend that you hire legal counsel in the event that either Hasbro or Games Workshop objects to your use of their intellectual property.

Assuming that you are going to use a crowdsource platform that is a not a US corporation, we hope the best for you.

Regards -

Jeff Richard
Moon Design Publications"

**weeble1000**

RiTides wrote:

But, Kickstarter is in the US, and so Moon Design having the rights to the name in the US means they're the only ones who are going to be allowed (by Kickstarter) to greenlight a Kickstarter campaign using that name. It'd be pretty intersting if someone saw the half million raised and tried to get a HeroQuest off the ground in another country before GameZone gets theirs launched elsewhere... hence the hypothetical.

Again, that's not correct. Moon Design has a mark registered in Class 16 described as an RPG and related written materials, which does not ipso facto give Moon Design special exclusive rights to a HeroQuest board game. It might, it could, but it does not necessarily. The relevant consideration is likelihood of confusion.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, but what the Hell business is it of Moon Design whether GameZone exposes itself to infringement of Hasbro or Games Workshop's rights?

If Moon Design wants to assert its rights, fine. Assert them, but lecturing the target of your assertions and making license to your property contingent on the party's unrelated negotiations with a third party is incredibly unreasonable.

"3. As you are aware, we weren't trying to get a "we won't get sued letter" from Hasbro (and although it was not discussed, we would be reluctant to rely on an indemnification clause from you) - what we wanted to see was a copy of a license from Hasbro allowing you to remake their game. We were - and still are - unwilling to give someone a license to our registered trademark to market an unlicensed remake of somebody's else's game. "

If Moon Design used its alleged trademark rights to torpedo a Kickstarter campaign based on its belief that the product infringed the rights of a third party, all while it maintained designs on entering the market with a similar product...

...isn't that tortious interference? Maybe Moon Design could use some lecturing, because I guarantee you that $500,000.00+ in potential damages is probably leaps and bounds above the sort of exposure GameZone would face from Hasbro or Games Workshop.

**RiTides**

You misread my post, weeble- I said (underlining the key part) "they're the only ones who are going to be allowed (by Kickstarter) to greenlight a Kickstarter campaign using that name."

I know we're talking past each other a bit by mistake, but note the distinction...

Also:

Psychman wrote:
Rick Meints wrote:Dionisio and Daniel -

Since it appears likely you are going to announce that you plan to do a crowdsourcing campaign on a platform other than Kickstarter, let me make a few things perfectly clear:

1. Indiegogo is a US company (a California corporation) and subject to all the same issues as Kickstarter;

2. We are unlikely to object to a truly Spanish crowdsource campaign (i.e., a Spanish corporation is the crowdsource platform) - as we do not have a registered trademark in Spain (although since the Heroquest RPG has been in the stream commerce in Spain for over a decade we likely have some background rights to the name as we are currently using it), but we will strongly object to you using a "disguised" US corporation (such as doing a Kickstarter campaign denominated in pounds or Canadian dollars).

3. As you are aware, we weren't trying to get a "we won't get sued letter" from Hasbro (and although it was not discussed, we would be reluctant to rely on an indemnification clause from you) - what we wanted to see was a copy of a license from Hasbro allowing you to remake their game. We were - and still are - unwilling to give someone a license to our registered trademark to market an unlicensed remake of somebody's else's game.

4. Let us remind you that Hasbro (and potentially Games Workshop) likely have the legal right to challenge any unlicensed remake of their game. Making a remake called the "25th Anniversary Heroquest edition" in any country seems to us to be an extremely risky strategy and I'd strongly recommend that you hire legal counsel in the event that either Hasbro or Games Workshop objects to your use of their intellectual property.

Assuming that you are going to use a crowdsource platform that is a not a US corporation, we hope the best for you.

Regards -

Jeff Richard
Moon Design Publications

So GameZone can launch in Spain no problem... more power to them!

**weeble1000**

RiTides wrote:
You misread my post, weeble- I said (underlining the key part) "they're the only ones who are going to be allowed (by Kickstarter) to greenlight a Kickstarter campaign using that name."

I know we're talking past each other a bit by mistake, but note the distinction...

So GameZone can launch in Spain no problem... more power to them!

Fair enough, but you also misread Moon Design there, which states that GameZone cannot launch in Spain "no problem."

" (although since the Heroquest RPG has been in the stream commerce in Spain for over a decade we likely have some background rights to the name as we are currently using it)"

Veiled threat is veiled.

**RiTides**

They also said right before that that they are "unlikely to object" to their launching it in Spain, and similar statement again afterwards. Just because they're leaving themselves an out doesn't mean it's a threat... sheesh.

**weeble1000**

RiTides wrote:
They also said right before that that they are "unlikely to object" to their launching it in Spain, and similar statement again afterwards. Just because they're leaving themselves an out doesn't mean it's a threat... sheesh.

In the context of them having already torpedoed a $500,000.00 Kickstarter campaign, yea, I think it is okay to consider it a threat. "Unlikely to object" is entirely meaningless.

**Triple9**

That letter comes off as very childish to me, especially as something published publicly. I'm surprised Neener, Neener was not used.

**RiTides**

weeble1000 wrote:
RiTides wrote:
They also said right before that that they are "unlikely to object" to their launching it in Spain, and similar statement again afterwards. Just because they're leaving themselves an out doesn't mean it's a threat... sheesh.

In the context of them having already torpedoed a $500,000.00 Kickstarter campaign, yea, I think it is okay to consider it a threat. "Unlikely to object" is entirely meaningless.

Okay, have it your way weeble, I really don't want to debate it further. I greatly appreciate and agree with your take on the law (and love reading your take on such things!) just not your interpretation of the motivation of the parties.

Regardless, GameZone will be making their update in about an hour and I'm sure will give their take on it then.

**nkelsch**

Got it. Cashgrab disguised by a 'Hasbro/GW gonna sue you'.

Maybe MD should let other companies stand up for their own protections on their own? A Copyright/trademark holder actually has to take action to protect their rights. No one can take action on their behalf. Someone is perfectly allowed to ignore infringement if they simply don't give a piss.

**RiTides**

Wow, it's like a dogpile in here. But most of the comments on BGG don't have the same sentiment at all... or even the Spanish insiders who have posted on here regarding GameZone. Ah well, will let you lot have at it.

**carboncopy**

weeble1000 wrote:

If Moon Design wants to assert its rights, fine. Assert them, but lecturing the target of your assertions and making license to your property contingent on the party's unrelated negotiations with a third party is incredibly unreasonable.

It doesn't sound unreasonable to me. If GZ were to make a game under their Trademark, there is potential that their mark could become polluted with whatever negative press is associated with it.

weeble1000 wrote:

...isn't that tortious interference? Maybe Moon Design could use some lecturing, because I guarantee you that $500,000.00+ in potential damages is probably leaps and bounds above the sort of exposure GameZone would face from Hasbro or Games Workshop.

Why? They're just defending their trademark. Granted, what they've done with the mark is pretty small, but it's still their trademark. GZ is attempting to distribute what would most likely be 1,000's of games into the US via Kickstarter funding where they hold the trademark. MD informed Kickstarter of the potential infringement. It's Kickstarter's call to pull the plug. Also, how much of that 500,000 plus dollars wouldn't have been raised if GZ didn't directly associate it with the original? Should that money go to the original copyright holder?

**Pacific**

Well.. regardless of all other considerations, doesn't that chap who wrote that letter come across as a top-class human being?

I don't actually mean that, in case the sarcasm isn't obvious!

**silent25**

A new challenger enters the ring!

http://tsdr.uspto.gov/documentviewer?caseId=sn86131779&docId=SPE20131203061844#docIndex=1&page=1

This could get interesting. No clue who William Cabell is. Don't know if he is representing GameZone, Moon Design or money grubber taking advantage of the situation.

*edit* People on BGG are stating he is registering the trademark on behalf of GameZone.

Well, DM could continue to try to challenge GZ, but at this point GZ in the clear.

**AlexHolker**

Apparently he's affiliated with GameZone.

He's also a lawyer banned from practicing law for "moral turpitude".

**Psychman**

silent25 wrote:
A new challenger enters the ring!

http://tsdr.uspto.gov/documentviewer?caseId=sn86131779&docId=SPE20131203061844#docIndex=1&page=1

This could get interesting. No clue who William Cabell is. Don't know if he is representing GameZone, Moon Design or money grubber taking advantage of the situation.

*edit* People on BGG are stating he is registering the trademark on behalf of GameZone.

Well, DM could continue to try to challenge GZ, but at this point GZ in the clear.

Well if Gamezone get the 28 trademark, Moon Design are safe from their feared potential litigation by Hasbro or GW. So they can get back to work with the final production work on their completed Kickstarter project, the Guide to Glorantha, which has suffered delays due to the very small team having to deal with this debacle.

And they'll need to come up with a new name for the boardgame they are designing featuring Gloranthan heroquesting, but that is no bad thing, considering all the back-and-forth that has occurred over this.

**Tannhauser42**

easysauce wrote:

or call it heroes quest and be done with it

Can't. Sierra released a PC adventure game called Hero's Quest in 1989, got in legal trouble from Milton Bradley, ended up changing the name to Quest for Glory. So, court precedent already made regarding too much similarity in HeroQuest and Hero's Quest.

**nkelsch**

AlexHolker wrote:
Apparently he's affiliated with GameZone.

He's also a lawyer banned from practicing law for "moral turpitude".

Lol... This gets curiouser and curiouser. Who knew board games were such serious business.

**Forar**

http://www.heroquestclassic.com/update-about-ks-pause/

UPDATE ABOUT KS PAUSE

Dear Backers

Last Friday we were surprised by the pause placed on our kickstarter Project of HQ25. We wrote a communiqué to you, which was also posted on our site heroquestclassic.com. In our letter we tried to communicate to you in the clearest fashion what was happening and as well to share with you all, our petition to kickstarter to have the project reopened. To do all of this publicly was to us the correct way for you as our backers to be informed of the situation and the most correct and transparent way to communicate with you as well, as our backers you have the right to know what was going on with this project.

We have done what you have ask for, we have waited in silence for KS’ answer. It has arrived. KS would prefer to keep the project on hold and wait for us to come to an agreement with third part.
The KS answer can be seen at this LINK.
KS’ position does not agree with as at all. The situation produced by the pause of the project has been harmful.

We do not feel that our legitimate rights over the Trademark have been protected and above all we do not wish to do business with third part under threats or duress of any sort. As a result we are proceeding to solicit KS to cancel our project on their platform.

Is this the end of HQ25? Of course not! Keep reading!
We accept the all of the respectful critics that has come our way because we learn from these things and if someone thinks differently they are free to express those opinions. What we do not accept is the disinformation y distortions that have been happening during the project's pause on KS in which we have remained silent and waited.

During these past few days our creative design crew has still been working on the development of various components, the same as always, the idea being to not lose any energy with this controversy.
The thirteen on the gallows, as we have fondly started calling the 13 professionals that are implicated in the creation of the project, have as a priority the development of this commemorative game.

We are truly more worried about you, the backers. We want thank you for the messages of support that have been rolling in. The public reaction to the news of a new edition of this classic provided undeniable and sincere joy to many. We will hold onto this as the rout to follow.

After this communiqué is sent out we will proceed to ask KS to cancel the project on their platform. After this is done we will immediately restart and continue the HQ25 project. More info at heroquestclassic.com. Therefore the HQ25 project will return to active status. We will move from victims to survivors and conquer as we go.

We understand that KS has a larger public base than any other crowed funding platform today; we understand that moving the project to another site will mean that out backer support will decrease. However we are ready and willing to continue this campaign in a place that will offer us the correct guaranties for our trademark. We would prefer to raise fewer funds and still move forward with and produce it in time for the 25th anniversary.

We await your support and enthusiasm in this renewed crowed funding campaign.
Again, we would like to thank our backers from the bottom of our hearts, please do not regret supporting us. Let us all together get this back on track and make this dream a reality.

Gamezone Team

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the project has been officially cancelled on KS.

**silent25**

So on to IndieGoGo then and hope they side with GZ if DM challenges them there? Though I would expect them to if GZ officially has the Class 28 trademark.

@AlexHolker, GZ associating with upright and outstanding citizens I see.

**choasdwarflord**

Indigogo will be the same issues so I am guessing something europe or even spain based, if its a cloud funder at all. They would be better off just doing it as a retail project from Spain at this point

**carboncopy**

And there you go, the end of Chapter 1. Good luck to them, and hopefully they get better legal counsel, and don't deceive their backers/customers in the future.

**Schmapdi**

It's true - they could just do a pre-order thing on their own website now.

I mean, they've certainly gotten plenty of publicity from the KS campaign. And a way to email the people who already backed it. So why not host it themselves and save giving someone else a 10% cut?

**adhuin**

Soda Pop Miniatures continued their cancelled cardgame-campaign on their own site, so similar solution could work for Gamezone.
Less people will pledge though, as kickstarter is the king of ... well ... Kickstarting.

**Joyboozer**

Great, thanks to the greed of MD we've been robbed of the opportunity to threaten Gamezone with cancelling our pledges!