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Bossk_Hogg wrote:
You could say that. Of course, you could also say that Runequest hasn't been relevant since Nineteen Eighty NEVER. Seriously, the only reason people are even referencing Gloran-fething-whatever is because it managed to leech itself on something that people give two farts about. Aside from two dudes living in Moon Design's mom's basement, no one cares about ducks, broos or any of their other stupid crap.

I could attempt to set you right, but I lack the fortitude, you the capacity for self-reflection, and the Universe sufficient lifespan in which to achieve such a miracle.

Glorantha is one of the few fantasy settings to be really fully realised, again, alongside Middle-Earth and Tekumel.

And it's fully realised in a different way to those. Middle-Earth and Tekumel were created by guys who were linguists first and historians second, so that those details really stand out in making them living, breathing worlds.

Glorantha's creator has more of an anthropological and shamanic background, making the culture and spiritual life of Glorantha far, far richer than either of the other settings, IMO (and I speak as a big fan of Tekumel).

It's a shame it never really took off, but the reason it never really took off is the same reason that EastEnders is more popular than opera, or Budweiser is more popular than Balvenie. Mass-market entertainment is easy to access, relatively speaking. Art is inherently harder to appreciate and understand. It requires effort, and commitment -- a willingness to spend time and mental resources to fully understand it, let alone appreciate it.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:


You could say that. Of course, you could also say that Runequest hasn't been relevant since Nineteen Eighty NEVER. Seriously, the only reason people are even referencing Gloran-fething-whatever is because it managed to leech itself on something that people give two farts about. Aside from two dudes living in Moon Design's mom's basement, no one cares about ducks, broos or any of their other stupid crap.

Uh..... no. I'm not a fan of the various bs around this KS, but Runequest has had a massive, massive influence on so much of what came afterwards, not least of which is early GW/Warhammer...

Yeah, I still own GW's hardcover editions of RuneQuest. Good books those, and way cheaper than buying the Avalon Hill version.

I'm still trying to figure out what it supposedly leeched itself onto?

I still own the old paperback version, the original Griffin Mountain, (God thats falling to bits now) and Snakepipe Hollow.

Cheers

Andrew

I've not had issue with Runequest, Glorantha, or Heroquest as a Boardgame.

It was the gigantic gakfest that this project turned into... Like I feared was going to happen in the beginning.

At least it was shut down early enough to not fleece people out of thier million and a half and say "Sorry about that....".


Runequest had a small audience back in the day, no reason to pee on present fans of that games shoes on this matter. This was just one of those great Idea fairies loosing its wings.


Heroic Hero's Quest would have been a great game idea to pick up with the quality that the figures have.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Dullspork wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
So, are we just going to end up with a rushed version of "heroquest" released by whoever actually own it, to take advantage of its sudden popularity?
I'd much prefer someone who actually gave a gak had control.

Nah, we'll get Moon Design's awesome HeroQuest board game in the Glorantha universe, complete with a paper mat and chit counters (to represent anthropomorphic ducks, of course) and an awkward dated ruleset (to retain the system's clunky flavor from the RPG)

Or, to put it another way...

You could say that. Of course, you could also say that Runequest hasn't been relevant since Nineteen Eighty NEVER. Seriously, the only reason people are even referencing Gloran-fething-whatever is because it managed to leech itself on something that people give two farts about. Aside from two dudes living in Moon Design's mom's basement, no one cares about ducks, broos or any of their other stupid crap.

I'm sure the fans of Runequest - and there are more of them than you imagine - would feel the same way about the thing that you want. Personally, I don't care. I just find it fun to read the one-sided posts like yours.

Let's not hope for the fourth option...

https://www.facebook.com/Herocults?fref=ts

"Joined Facebook
Yesterday"

Oh boy...

" Written in a tone of humor, in commemoration of the controversy caused by the attempt to restart the game "Hero Quest" from MB. "

I'm LMAO with that page right now

I don't know if you already know this or not, but Hero Cults was an actual game. During the 80's and early 90's a Spanish brand called Falomir would just copy famous games and sell them dirt cheap. They also did it with Trivial Pursuit, for example. Their version was called Trivio. Awful games, gold facebook page

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah, I still own GW's hardcover editions of RuneQuest. Good books those, and way cheaper than buying the Avalon Hill version.

Best edition of the game in its entire history. Much better than the Mongoose editions. (And infinitely better than HeroQuest the RPG.)

From the days when a GW reviewer could complain about another company's prices without a hint of irony....

The Auld Grump - I also have the GW Call of Cthulhu....

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah, I still own GW's hardcover editions of RuneQuest. Good books those, and way cheaper than buying the Avalon Hill version.

Best edition of the game in its entire history. Much better than the Mongoose editions. (And infinitely better than HeroQuest the RPG.)

From the days when a GW reviewer could complain about another company's prices without a hint of irony....

The Auld Grump - I also have the GW Call of Cthulhu....

The first Mongoose release was indeed a pile of crap. The second \mongoose one however was massively better, and has led to the current, 6th edition. Its well worth a look, and has a fantastic combat system.

ced1106 wrote:
Let's not hope for the fourth option...

https://www.facebook.com/Herocults?fref=ts

Wow. someone (presumably in Spain) really has a lot of time on their hands with a raging hate-on for Gamezone...

Psychman wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah, I still own GW's hardcover editions of RuneQuest. Good books those, and way cheaper than buying the Avalon Hill version.

Best edition of the game in its entire history. Much better than the Mongoose editions. (And infinitely better than HeroQuest the RPG.)

From the days when a GW reviewer could complain about another company's prices without a hint of irony....

The Auld Grump - I also have the GW Call of Cthulhu....

The first Mongoose release was indeed a pile of crap. The second \mongoose one however was massively better, and has led to the current, 6th edition. Its well worth a look, and has a fantastic combat system.

Mind you, I say MRQ1 was crap, it got used as the base for the cleaned up and slimmed down OpenQuest, which I think, really captures the old 2nd/3rd edition feel. By d101 Games, maybe look it up, Auld Grumpy? :-)

Psychman wrote:

Psychman wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah, I still own GW's hardcover editions of RuneQuest. Good books those, and way cheaper than buying the Avalon Hill version.

Best edition of the game in its entire history. Much better than the Mongoose editions. (And infinitely better than HeroQuest the RPG.)

From the days when a GW reviewer could complain about another company's prices without a hint of irony....

The Auld Grump - I also have the GW Call of Cthulhu....

The first Mongoose release was indeed a pile of crap. The second \mongoose one however was massively better, and has led to the current, 6th edition. Its well worth a look, and has a fantastic combat system.

Mind you, I say MRQ1 was crap, it got used as the base for the cleaned up and slimmed down OpenQuest, which I think, really captures the old 2nd/3rd edition feel. By d101 Games, maybe look it up, Auld Grumpy? :-)

I just have - and they still do no have the feature of BRP that I liked best: the very organic experience system. Looks good otherwise, if maybe a bit too streamlined for my tastes. (And I do mean just now - I have not yet had time for a complete perusal, and my opinion may change - thank you for the heads up! I will admit that the experience system was the first thing that I flipped to....)

Magic... is better than in the first Mongoose RQ, but not as good as either 2nd or third real RuneQuest.

Mind you, Chaosium held onto the BRP system, so Mongoose couldn't use it... but what they came up with just was not elegant. I mean, really? Pick three skills to see if they go up? And they don't have to be skills that the PC actually used?! No sir, didn't like it.

Then the OGL/No OGL dance between first and second of the Mongoose editions (or why I never bothered at all with the 2nd version - having an OGL was the only saving grace that the first version had).

Grrr..... Snarrlll....

Ah well... now I have Moon Design to ignore.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Ah well... now I have Moon Design to ignore.

They're really no better than a patent troll at this point. I'm all for ignoring them should they decided to launch their own kickstarter.

 Breotan wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Ah well... now I have Moon Design to ignore.

They're really no better than a patent troll at this point. I'm all for ignoring them should they decided to launch their own kickstarter.

Ha, no chance of that, they already said they're waiting for someone else to release the game so they can be officially paid for the Heroquest name.

While you're at it, ignore Kickstarter, Vekami, and anyone else who is "in on it" ...!

Or just acknowledge that they didn't have ask their ducks in a row to launch this, and be glad this all happened before the money was withdrawn... Maybe they'll get it together for a future launch. They were warned not to proceed and did anyway... to ignore that is a little misguided, I think. Both parties are at fault but this had plenty of warning for GameZone to know it was coming, and it is pretty important that they didn't let backers know about it at all.

 Breotan wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Ah well... now I have Moon Design to ignore.

They're really no better than a patent troll at this point. I'm all for ignoring them should they decided to launch their own kickstarter.

How can you be a patent troll if you're actually releasing a real game by the name? I know RQ/Glorantha isn't well know, but it's been around forever and the Heroquest version of things has been out around a decade. These guys aren't sitting on the rights doing nothing.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
just have - and they still do no have the feature of BRP that I liked best: the very organic experience system. Looks good otherwise, if maybe a bit too streamlined for my tastes. (And I do mean just now - I have not yet had time for a complete perusal, and my opinion may change - thank you for the heads up! I will admit that the experience system was the first thing that I flipped to....)

Magic... is better than in the first Mongoose RQ, but not as good as either 2nd or third real RuneQuest.

Mind you, Chaosium held onto the BRP system, so Mongoose couldn't use it... but what they came up with just was not elegant. I mean, really? Pick three skills to see if they go up? And they don't have to be skills that the PC actually used?! No sir, didn't like it.

Then the OGL/No OGL dance between first and second of the Mongoose editions (or why I never bothered at all with the 2nd version - having an OGL was the only saving grace that the first version had).

Grrr..... Snarrlll....

Ah well... now I have Moon Design to ignore.

The Auld Grump

I appreciate your fondness for the BRP experience system - it really stands alone as a truly organic improvement system. But as you say, neither Mongoose, nor at that point, Greg Stafford had rights to BRP so any syatem designed for RuneQuest had to be different enough to not breach their copyright (Oh, look, its that issue again! ). Adopting a different experience system and dumping the famous (infamous to some) Resistance Table, 2 highly characteristic features of BRP accomplished that.

Both OQ and MRQ2/RQ6 kind of get round the 3 increase limit in the same way - conflating combat skills right down. OQ covers all combat skills into 3: Unarmed, Melee, Ranged. All attacks and parries use just the appropriate from those 3, plus the Dodge if desired. This reduction means those 3 increases can actually be spent on other skills without disadvantaging a character in combat. MRQ2/RQ6 (particularly opened up in RQ6) introduce Weapon Styles - 1 skill that covers a coherent group of weapons which would be trained in together, eg Roman Legionary would be Javelin, Spear, Gladius, Tower Shield. Again, leaving some experience rolls free for other stuff.

So yes, no more truly organic experience system, but some interesting ideas all the same.

Oh, and RQ6 really nails shamanic magic - it is a thing of beauty, and I suspect one of the very few magic systems where the "spell list" is part of the creature chapter!

One of the things that I liked about Spirit Magic (as it was called in the first three iterations) was that it was ubiquitous - a peasant might well know two or three spells, to help him through daily life - Bladesharp was used on wood axes and plows as well as on weapons.

I think that calling the Mongoose game RuneQuest bothered me as much as the system - likely more. (On a similar note - I like True20 - which did not try to claim that it was 100% 3.5 SRD compatible. So it is not just that I do not like change.)

Really... I wanted a fourth edition of RuneQuest, not just some game with the same title. The name carried a certain expectation for me - and failed (in my opinion) to deliver.

I will grant that the game was closer to RuneQuest than 4e was to Dungeons and Dragons though.

And, yeah, I am one of those folks that liked the Resistance table.

I really need to look at the new Legend version of the rules - but I will admit that streamlining the weapon skills is not a selling point for me,

But, hey, the PDF of the basic rules is just a buck at RPGNow. I cannot argue with the price.

Stafford's HeroQuest on the other hand... well, let us say that my opinion of the game was not a good one before the dog in the manger routine with the boardgame.

It turns out that I do own a copy - and the fact that it was sitting in the bottom of a box, never to be used.... yeah.

I met the man, back in the early eighties... and he did not seem to be as bitter as he has come across over the last ten years or so. (Not just this incident - I think that he is just not a happy person, anymore.)

Back then I was impressed with meeting a real, honest to goodness game designer (even though I was working for an RPG company at the time... it doesn't count if they are people that you know).

Chaosium has had a rocky road - but I honestly think that Stafford would do better to join back up with them than he has been doing with Issarries and Moon Design.

And he needs to ditch HeroQuest. (Aside from the name - the game needs such a complete redesign that it would become a different game. I do not know why he has held on to that system for this long.)

Yeah - I think that I can cop to the title of 'bitter' as well....

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Well, I looked at Legend, and specifically at the Spirit Magic rules... Not the same as that from RuneQuest - but not at all bad. More work on the GM in regards to what a Spirit can do (both for and against the PC). The influence of the older RuneQuest is actually much more noticeable in the Spirit Magic book than it was in the first Mongoose edition.

I still like RQ3 better - but Legend stands up okay on its own.

hands_miranda wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Ah well... now I have Moon Design to ignore.

They're really no better than a patent troll at this point. I'm all for ignoring them should they decided to launch their own kickstarter.

How can you be a patent troll if you're actually releasing a real game by the name? I know RQ/Glorantha isn't well know, but it's been around forever and the Heroquest version of things has been out around a decade. These guys aren't sitting on the rights doing nothing.

I'm a little confused. Are you agreeing with the sentiment that Moon Design is "really no better than a patent troll" or aren't you?

When it comes to trademark trolling, on the surface Moon Design pretty well fits the pattern: Snap up a once popular mark that has been abandoned, do little with it, assert it against a successful company using the mark. But, there's a lot of subtext. Moon Design may well have not made a board game with the mark, but it was indeed using the mark, and Stafford had long intended to do so, apparently. Even so, one wonders about Moon Design's motivations. At least I still do. GameZone was asking for trouble and acting like an entitled cowboy, in my opinion, but Moon Design was aggressive for reasons I can't really fathom other than Stafford not wanting to see the same thing with the HeroQuest mark happen twice. But then it would have happened both times because he couldn't be arsed to get an actual product out.

It would be explicit trolling if someone had watched the Kickstarter make money, registered the mark, and then asserted it against GameZone.

Exactly (to your last sentence). Which they did not do. If they'd let the KS cash in, then come looking for a cut, they would fit that description. Instead, they shut it down, costing them time and money to do so. They're getting nothing out of this at the moment, just defending their trademark. Again, not the devil some of you seem to be imagining them to be.

 RiTides wrote:
Exactly (to your last sentence). Which they did not do. If they'd let the KS cash in, then come looking for a cut, they would fit that description. Instead, they shut it down, costing them time and money to do so. They're getting nothing out of this at the moment, just defending their trademark. Again, not the devil some of you seem to be imagining them to be.

And yet they defended their mark in an unnecessarily aggressive manner. I linked to this before, but I'll do so again. Do y'all remember the Jack Daniels C&D? Protecting a mark does not require a scorched earth policy. In fact, licensing the mark would have made it stronger than a complaint to Kickstarter, which nets nothing other than evidence that you have asserted the mark, not that anyone substantively recognizes the mark's value, validity, or scope.

If Moon Design had licensed the mark to GameZone, even temporarily, it would have been evidence that Moon Design's HeroQuest mark extends to board games, for example. Instead of strengthening its mark, Moon Design arguably weakened it by inviting someone to challenge it. There is a Class 28 HeroQuest registration in the works, let's not forget, which was precipitated by Moon Design's behavior.

Again, when you stop taking positions and consider your interests, it is possible to come up with solutions that make everyone happy, or at the very least protect everyone's interests rather than putting them at risk.

For example, GW should have just bought Chapterhouse Studios. Who cares how much it would have needed to pay to do so? 300K, 500K, 700K, 1 Million? Who cares so long as Chapterhouse took the offer. It probably galled GW to pay money to someone who they say stole GW's property. But did the trial protect GW's interests or hurt the company? What if GW could have paid half of what the trial cost, got an admission of infringement from Chapterhouse Studios, and was able to publicly state that not only was Chapterhouse a proven infringer, but that the company is now out of business after GW asserted its rights? Would that have been money better spent?

Interests, not positions. That's mediation 101.

Exalted! Thanks weeble for your non stop excellent posting!

I agree - his non stop posting is excellent, and appreciated!

For what it's worth, I agree with you weeble, on both this and the GW / Chapterhouse case. But you present an ideal world case (indeed, a case known as "the nicest C&D in history"!), and unfortunately companies often draw lines in the sand instead. When communication broke off in July or so, and the Kickstarter launched without an agreement in place, they had to take some action or have their mark weakened in a similar manner (not extending to board games) anyway.

 RiTides wrote:
For what it's worth, I agree with you weeble, on both this and the GW / Chapterhouse case. But you present an ideal world case (indeed, a case known as "the nicest C&D in history"!), and unfortunately companies often draw lines in the sand instead. When communication broke off in July or so, and the Kickstarter launched without an agreement in place, they had to take some action or have their mark weakened in a similar manner (not extending to board games) anyway.

Oh, I expect that there was hot blood. GameZone seems to think they were right, and Moon Design clearly thinks they are right too. It's just a shame it happened. GameZone has a product in development that people want, and Moon Design has a mark that Stafford waited a long time to get that he wants to be able to use.

I understand getting pissed off. I get mad pretty quickly, and I make a living off of angry people getting themselves into drawn out, expensive litigation. I think what good can come of this mess is tuning people in this industry into the risks and consequences of being adversarial. That and what RiTides as said already, the Kickstarter ended before a lot of people's money went into limbo.

The fantasy table-top miniatures industry is really small, but very important to a lot of folks, myself included. Being small, bad blood has a tendency to linger, but I think it also means that there is an opportunity for participants in the industry to form positive, productive relationships. Hopefully, when people have a problem (which will inevitably occur), they will be able to stop and take a breath before doing things they can't take back. If there's an extant positive relationship, I would hope that would give one incentive to take that breath.

I don't really know what we can do, as customers and enthusiasts, to helps these sorts of relationships to form. But at the very least, having productive public discussions when incidents like this happen helps to raise awareness.

For an interesting read within our hobby look up the Fantasy Flight vs. Stronghold Games, Merchant of Venus reprint.

To sumerise it both companies belived they had the rights to reprint the game. Fantasy Flight wanted to update and release the game, Stronghold just wanted to reprint it. Instead of fighting it out in court they worked together and came to an aggreement. Fantasy Flight got what they wanted, Stronghold got what they wanted and a bunch of community recognition and the gamer got both versions of the game in one box.