Chapter Master Brawl Free for All who do you think would win???

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**Thatguyhsagun**

DogofWar1 wrote:
Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Also i would like to see official stats for Tu Shan before we pick a winner. Sallies supplement cant come fast enough

Yeah, Tu'Shan should put the hurt on lots of people. Tu'Shan and Stronos, assuming they get added in Supplements, should be pretty awesome on the tabletop, provided GW doesn't do something dumb like give them 3+ armor saves or AP3 weapons. Also interested in Jubal Khan and Vladimir Pugh, though Khan might be more about chewing infantry than straight up 1 on 1, and Pugh, even if he's awesome, will still probably be overshadowed by Lysander.

Someone had homebrew rules for Tu'Shan that gave him Termi armor, a drakescale cloak conferring 3++, EW built in, strength of 5, and a Thunder Hammer, that due to a special rule, he could use at initiative. The result is pretty monstrous if you think about it.

I imagine the official GW one will have similar stats, though he might not get to strike at initiative with his TH. Still, a guy with 2+/3++, EW, and an S10 TH is pretty much an unmatched beatstick, except for perhaps Relic decked out CMs from C:SM.

So he's Lysander... But with a free hand to strong arm a flamer/melta... I can dig it! And maybe i2... I think unwieldy should have int rounding down

**ZebioLizard2**

ClassicCarraway wrote:
Sasa0mg wrote:
Him an the emperor would be bros.

Actually, I'd say the Emperor would b -slap Moloc for being the corrupt High Lords' lap dog and spending all of his time killing his brother marines instead of fighting the real threats. But then, I'm sure Moloc would take his spear and run the Emperor through, and take his place on the Golden Throne, completely eliminating the forces of Chaos with his unsurpassed (and previously unknown) psychic powers, because he's Mother F'n Moloc and he is Forge World's Special Snowflake!!!

I'm curious as to how someone can be a "diligent and disciplined logistician and strategist" but also "has little patience for councils or strategic planning"....

Seeing as they fight renegades mostly, they do fight real threats that turn away from being loyalists.

**bigboss1o1**

DarthOvious wrote:
OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.

RULES

Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds

Round 1 - Moloc hits first.

To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds

So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.

Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)

To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves

So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn

Turn two

Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total

Turn Three

Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total

Turn Four

Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total

DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.

At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.

erm one important factor you forgot Moloc has preffered enemy space marines bub, factor that into your calculations.

**DogofWar1**

bigboss1o1 wrote:
DarthOvious wrote:

Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds

Round 1 - Moloc hits first.

To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds

So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.

erm one important factor you forgot Moloc has preffered enemy space marines bub, factor that into your calculations.

He did.

Moloc drops to 2 attacks and WS5 because of uber deathmask, 50% of Moloc's attacks (or 1 attack), miss. He rerolls 1s, so 1/3 of his misses, and 50% of those hit, so he gets an extra .165 hits with preferred enemy. That's represented by the (1*0.33*0.5) part of the to-hit calculation.

Then for to wound, same thing, it's represented by the (0.195*(5/6)) part of the calculation, .195 being 1/6th of 1.165, or the 1s he would roll.

**Lobokai**

bigboss1o1 wrote:

erm one important factor you forgot Moloc has preffered enemy space marines bub, factor that into your calculations.

Yeah, thing about snowflakes they melt. If you look at their stats to their fluff, Logan, Dante, and Calgar are all less powerful than their stories would lend (so you can use them without breaking the game), Moloc, on the other hand, is pushing the limits of his abilities (and believability) with his stats. FW wanted their own Leman Russ... so they pushed the limit, which is cool. Sad thing is, Moloc gets wiped by another FW space marine, Sevrin Loth rolling biomancy.

**ZebioLizard2**

Lobukia wrote:
bigboss1o1 wrote:

erm one important factor you forgot Moloc has preffered enemy space marines bub, factor that into your calculations.

Yeah, thing about snowflakes they melt. If you look at their stats to their fluff, Logan, Dante, and Calgar are all less powerful than their stories would lend (so you can use them without breaking the game), Moloc, on the other hand, is pushing the limits of his abilities (and believability) with his stats. FW wanted their own Leman Russ... so they pushed the limit, which is cool. Sad thing is, Moloc gets wiped by another FW space marine, Sevrin Loth rolling biomancy.

To be fair, biomancy is just that good in general.

Also the funny thing is, I wonder how all these characters would do under second edition. Seeing as we'd finally get full proof differences between the armor sets besides looks.

**DarthOvious**

bigboss1o1 wrote:
DarthOvious wrote:
OK, lets do this. A simulation battle between Dante and Moloc.

RULES

Both competitors start in base to base with each other. Dantes mask gives Moloc -1WS, -1 wound, -1 Attack & -1 Initiative. So Moloc is down to 2 attacks per turn and needs 4s to hit Dante. He also only starts with 3 wounds

Round 1 - Moloc hits first.

To Hit - (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5) = 1.165 hits
To Wound - (1.165*(5/6)) + (0.195*(5/6)) = 1.13 Failed Saves
Failed Saves - 0.5*1.13 = 0.565 Wounds

So Moloc takes 0.565 Wounds off Dante a turn.

Now Dante Hits back - 5 attacks (4 base + 1 for extra CCW)

To Hit - (5*(4/6) + (1*(4/6) = 4 hits
To Wound - (4*(4/6)) = 2.66 Wounds
Failed Saves - 2.66*(2/6) = 0.88 Failed Saves

So Dante takes 0.88 Wounds off Moloc a turn

Turn two

Moloc causes 2*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.13 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 2*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 1.76 Wounds in total

Turn Three

Moloc cause 3*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 1.695 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 3*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 2.64 Wounds in total

Turn Four

Moloc cause 4*0.565 Wounds to Dante overall = 2.26 Wounds in total

Dante Causes 4*0.88 Wounds to Moloc Overall = 3.52 Wounds in total

DANTE IS THE WINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder they stipulated not on the tabletop. They knew that Dante would win.

At least he lasted four turns against Dante. I love the fact that these guys seem to think he can beat Logan as well.

erm one important factor you forgot Moloc has preffered enemy space marines bub, factor that into your calculations.

I did.

You see the bit to hit? Do you how it is (2*0.5) + (1*0.33*0.5)? The second part of that calculation is your reroll to hit. You need 4s to hit Dante since you are only WS5 against him (Death Mask) and you only have 2 attacks since you are reduced by one attack (death Mask again). So on average you will miss with 1 attack. The 0.33 is the chance that your 1 failed attack is a roll of a one and the 0.5 is the chance that you re-roll will hit.

Now put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lobukia wrote:
bigboss1o1 wrote:

erm one important factor you forgot Moloc has preffered enemy space marines bub, factor that into your calculations.

Yeah, thing about snowflakes they melt. If you look at their stats to their fluff, Logan, Dante, and Calgar are all less powerful than their stories would lend (so you can use them without breaking the game), Moloc, on the other hand, is pushing the limits of his abilities (and believability) with his stats. FW wanted their own Leman Russ... so they pushed the limit, which is cool. Sad thing is, Moloc gets wiped by another FW space marine, Sevrin Loth rolling biomancy.

Doesn't matter, he was wrong anyway. He obviously didn't read the calculations right.

**PredaKhaine**

ClassicCarraway wrote:
Sasa0mg wrote:
Him an the emperor would be bros.

Actually, I'd say the Emperor would b -slap Moloc for being the corrupt High Lords' lap dog and spending all of his time killing his brother marines instead of fighting the real threats. But then, I'm sure Moloc would take his spear and run the Emperor through, and take his place on the Golden Throne, completely eliminating the forces of Chaos with his unsurpassed (and previously unknown) psychic powers, because he's Mother F'n Moloc and he is Forge World's Special Snowflake!!!

I'm curious as to how someone can be a "diligent and disciplined logistician and strategist" but also "has little patience for councils or strategic planning"....

If Moloc fought the emperor (if he got up off the golden throne) the emperor would obliterate him.
Then Moloc would re-spawn.

This would be repeated for the next billion years until in the end, Moloc finally gets in a fluke hit and kills the emporer - thus proving he wins.
After all, a billion years of losing followed by a win is still a win right?

**Pilau Rice**

bigboss1o1 wrote:
Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.

Well it does, because they would not have existed before their Founding in M36.

But, time travel ... the Warp did it.

PredaKhaine wrote:

This would be repeated for the next billion years until in the end, Moloc finally gets in a fluke hit and kills the emporer - thus proving he wins.
After all, a billion years of losing followed by a win is still a win right?

Maybe Moloc is the Emperor

**DarthOvious**

PredaKhaine wrote:
ClassicCarraway wrote:
Sasa0mg wrote:
Him an the emperor would be bros.

Actually, I'd say the Emperor would b -slap Moloc for being the corrupt High Lords' lap dog and spending all of his time killing his brother marines instead of fighting the real threats. But then, I'm sure Moloc would take his spear and run the Emperor through, and take his place on the Golden Throne, completely eliminating the forces of Chaos with his unsurpassed (and previously unknown) psychic powers, because he's Mother F'n Moloc and he is Forge World's Special Snowflake!!!

I'm curious as to how someone can be a "diligent and disciplined logistician and strategist" but also "has little patience for councils or strategic planning"....

If Moloc fought the emperor (if he got up off the golden throne) the emperor would obliterate him.
Then Moloc would re-spawn.

This would be repeated for the next billion years until in the end, Moloc finally gets in a fluke hit and kills the emporer - thus proving he wins.
After all, a billion years of losing followed by a win is still a win right?

Actually, in Vulkan Lives you learn that the trait that Vulkan inherited from the Emperor is the Emperors immortality. That means the Emperor is Immortal as well and would regenerate. It would just be 1 big dogfight until the end of time, with the Emperor winning about 99.999999999999999999% of the fights. The percentage would be higher than that but I just can be bothered typing out that many numbers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pilau Rice wrote:
bigboss1o1 wrote:
Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.

Well it does, because they would not have existed before their Founding in M36.

But, time travel ... the Warp did it.

PredaKhaine wrote:

This would be repeated for the next billion years until in the end, Moloc finally gets in a fluke hit and kills the emporer - thus proving he wins.
After all, a billion years of losing followed by a win is still a win right?

Maybe Moloc is the Emperor

So Moloc doesn't just have multiple personality disorder? He also has obscene visions of grandeur? My of my, Moloc is not one healthy pup. Any money that Moloc is the next renegade to fall to chaos.

**Sasa0mg**

ClassicCarraway wrote:
Sasa0mg wrote:
Him an the emperor would be bros.

Actually, I'd say the Emperor would b -slap Moloc for being the corrupt High Lords' lap dog and spending all of his time killing his brother marines instead of fighting the real threats. But then, I'm sure Moloc would take his spear and run the Emperor through, and take his place on the Golden Throne, completely eliminating the forces of Chaos with his unsurpassed (and previously unknown) psychic powers, because he's Mother F'n Moloc and he is Forge World's Special Snowflake!!!

I'm curious as to how someone can be a "diligent and disciplined logistician and strategist" but also "has little patience for councils or strategic planning"....

I dunno, they aren't heretical in there purging of other marines. At first it may have been a little shady, but ultimately there use is to remove 'wayward' marines strayed or straying from the codex. That said after a few hundred years they become specialists at what they do and when a marine chapter can't keep its head on its shoulders, or chooses to rebel or otherwise go against orders I'm sure it just boils to "Lets bring in the experts" to set them back in there ways. Which ultimately tends to revolve around moloc cutting thee head from the shoulders of the chapter.

**bigboss1o1**

Pilau Rice wrote:
bigboss1o1 wrote:
Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.

Well it does, because they would not have existed before their Founding in M36.

But, time travel ... the Warp did it.

PredaKhaine wrote:

This would be repeated for the next billion years until in the end, Moloc finally gets in a fluke hit and kills the emporer - thus proving he wins.
After all, a billion years of losing followed by a win is still a win right?

Maybe Moloc is the Emperor

O contrar read the Badab war my friend there are records of a minotaurs chapter in M21 which from there records were lost until there mysterious return in M36 soo yeah!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthOvious wrote:
PredaKhaine wrote:
ClassicCarraway wrote:
Sasa0mg wrote:
Him an the emperor would be bros.

Actually, I'd say the Emperor would b -slap Moloc for being the corrupt High Lords' lap dog and spending all of his time killing his brother marines instead of fighting the real threats. But then, I'm sure Moloc would take his spear and run the Emperor through, and take his place on the Golden Throne, completely eliminating the forces of Chaos with his unsurpassed (and previously unknown) psychic powers, because he's Mother F'n Moloc and he is Forge World's Special Snowflake!!!

I'm curious as to how someone can be a "diligent and disciplined logistician and strategist" but also "has little patience for councils or strategic planning"....

If Moloc fought the emperor (if he got up off the golden throne) the emperor would obliterate him.
Then Moloc would re-spawn.

This would be repeated for the next billion years until in the end, Moloc finally gets in a fluke hit and kills the emporer - thus proving he wins.
After all, a billion years of losing followed by a win is still a win right?

Actually, in Vulkan Lives you learn that the trait that Vulkan inherited from the Emperor is the Emperors immortality. That means the Emperor is Immortal as well and would regenerate. It would just be 1 big dogfight until the end of time, with the Emperor winning about 99.999999999999999999% of the fights. The percentage would be higher than that but I just can be bothered typing out that many numbers.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pilau Rice wrote:
bigboss1o1 wrote:
Look a point i want to make is that the Minotaurs chapter is soo shrouded in mystery that even the inquisition doesnt know crap about them just because they were founded in cursed founding does not mean there not older then that because appearently there are records of a Minotaurs chapter as far back as after the Horus Heresy and you know when they hint at something like that its not for no reason, soo Moloc could be way way older and more experienced then what you think.

Well it does, because they would not have existed before their Founding in M36.

But, time travel ... the Warp did it.

PredaKhaine wrote:

This would be repeated for the next billion years until in the end, Moloc finally gets in a fluke hit and kills the emporer - thus proving he wins.
After all, a billion years of losing followed by a win is still a win right?

Maybe Moloc is the Emperor

So Moloc doesn't just have multiple personality disorder? He also has obscene visions of grandeur? My of my, Moloc is not one healthy pup. Any money that Moloc is the next renegade to fall to chaos.

and as for there yes, mental disorders its because there geneseed is supposedly of chimeric quality they are some adeptas biologicus science project weather they have control over there minds or it has control over them is up to speculation.

**AlmightyWalrus**

The Imperium was founded in M30. Space Marines didn't exist then. Are you quite done with ridiculous claims about how Moloc is the bestast evar?

**DarthOvious**

bigboss1o1 wrote:
O contrar read the Badab war my friend there are records of a minotaurs chapter in M21 which from there records were lost until there mysterious return in M36 soo yeah!

So Space Marines existed before Space Marines existed? You just divded by zero didn't you?

Also thanks to AlmightyWalrus for spoting this. I missed it first time around.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Imperium was founded in M30. Space Marines didn't exist then. Are you quite done with ridiculous claims about how Moloc is the bestast evar?

Minotaurs are like Lolcats. Theyz are in ur warp, messin wit ur histori.

**PredaKhaine**

Right - now we've agreed Moloc isn't 'the one' who does win?

**DarthOvious**

PredaKhaine wrote:
Right - now we've agreed Moloc isn't 'the one' who does win?

Good call, cause I think its obvious that Dante isn't going to be good enough tabletop wise to do it. Logan, Calgar, etc, etc, will just ID him.

Fluff wise Dante has a shot, but I think Logan does too.

**Thatguyhsagun**

Like i said until the sallies get official stats/fluff on tu'shan dont go picking a winner just yet

**PredaKhaine**

Fluff wise its first founding chapters.

Discounting Pugh, Khan and Tu-shan as they don't have their own rules yet.

So Grimnar vs Calgar vs Dante.

Calgar gave Dante control of Armageddon so fluffwise, Calgar counts himself out.

So Grimnar vs Dante for fluff champion?

**AlmightyWalrus**

Dante won a duel with Skarbrand. What has Logan done to rival that?

**PredaKhaine**

Grimnar killed a Grey Knight Grand Master - I'd assume one of those could potentially beat Skarbrand?
TBH - Ragnar beats Grimnar in fluff - he's beaten Magnus the Red...

So - Dante for fluff champion?

PS
How the hell did Dante beat Skarbrand anyway?

**DarthOvious**

PredaKhaine wrote:
How the hell did Dante beat Skarbrand anyway?

Because he's awesome.

**Thatguyhsagun**

Because hes killier than even a champion of Khorneflakes

**PredaKhaine**

So - Dante for fluff champion?

**Sasa0mg**

I think what he meant to say that Minotaur's are one of the 21st founding chapters of the space marines.

**DarthOvious**

Sasa0mg wrote:
I think what he meant to say that Minotaur's are one of the 21st founding chapters of the space marines.

Aren't they supposed to be cursed or something?

**Thatguyhsagun**

DarthOvious wrote:
Sasa0mg wrote:
I think what he meant to say that Minotaur's are one of the 21st founding chapters of the space marines.

Aren't they supposed to be cursed or something?

21st founding was cursed. And in M36.

**Sasa0mg**

Yes they are cursed.

**bigboss1o1**

sorry your right i meant 21st founding whoops but I still say Dante, Calgar, Logan all are lost causes, two other big reasons why despite the one's ive already stated they are honorable Moloc is not where they would hesitate to strike down a battle brother Moloc wouldnt think twice he's mentally unstable and paranoid as hell, second Moloc nor his Minotaurs are no ordinary geneseed there a super super human geneseed with obvious defects, super secret science projects of the adeptas biologicus soo count him off if you want I know the truth all those others are old and outdated and ready for replacement Moloc's whole career has been founded on taking out chapter masters he's a specialist at his craft like no other.

**PredaKhaine**

bigboss1o1 wrote:
sorry your right i meant 21st founding whoops but I still say Dante, Calgar, Logan all are lost causes, two other big reasons why despite the one's ive already stated they are honorable Moloc is not where they would hesitate to strike down a battle brother Moloc wouldnt think twice he's mentally unstable and paranoid as hell, second Moloc nor his Minotaurs are no ordinary geneseed there a super super human geneseed with obvious defects, super secret science projects of the adeptas biologicus soo count him off if you want I know the truth all those others are old and outdated and ready for replacement Moloc's whole career has been founded on taking out chapter masters he's a specialist at his craft like no other.

Then Logan goes for the throat - losing, he goes wulfen and tears molocs arms off and beats him to death with them.
Dante - also losing, throws a wobbly, is claimed by the red thirst and the black rage and rips molocs head off and gaks down his neck.
Moloc has never fought anything like those two before...

And when Moloc 're-incarnates' he has no memory of the event as he would have to save his memories before the fight as I doubt he'd get time during...

So he never learns what kills him thinking about it - he could never learn from his mistakes. As he'd be dead with no recent auto-saves.

Calgars fluff armour is too strong - also if the minotaurs went after the Ultramarines - they'd lose so badly it wouldn't even be funny. The UM have been know to gather ALL their successor chapters on occasion to attack a threat.
I don't think anything in the galaxy could take all UM descendents at once.

**Thatguyhsagun**

PredaKhaine wrote:
bigboss1o1 wrote:
sorry your right i meant 21st founding whoops but I still say Dante, Calgar, Logan all are lost causes, two other big reasons why despite the one's ive already stated they are honorable Moloc is not where they would hesitate to strike down a battle brother Moloc wouldnt think twice he's mentally unstable and paranoid as hell, second Moloc nor his Minotaurs are no ordinary geneseed there a super super human geneseed with obvious defects, super secret science projects of the adeptas biologicus soo count him off if you want I know the truth all those others are old and outdated and ready for replacement Moloc's whole career has been founded on taking out chapter masters he's a specialist at his craft like no other.

Then Logan goes for the throat - losing, he goes wulfen and tears molocs arms off and beats him to death with them.
Dante - also losing, throws a wobbly, is claimed by the red thirst and the black rage and rips molocs head off and gaks down his neck.
Moloc has never fought anything like those two before...

And when Moloc 're-incarnates' he has no memory of the event as he would have to save his memories before the fight as I doubt he'd get time during...

So he never learns what kills him thinking about it - he could never learn from his mistakes. As he'd be dead with no recent auto-saves

Also, a Space Wolf, honorable? didnt know this was a joke thread

And maybe Moloc's brain has an auto-save like Gmail where every 5 minutes it auto-saves?