Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't like this topic, because Azrael has no feats of strength due to dark angels secrecy. In the fluff I've read Belial has more feats of strength that Azrael.

Niexist wrote:
I don't like this topic, because Azrael has no feats of strength due to dark angels secrecy. In the fluff I've read Belial has more feats of strength that Azrael.

I will say, for the DA a cunning mind at the helm probably makes more sense than a thick arm... Though that doesn't help much in TTG stats.

 Lobukia wrote:

Niexist wrote:
I don't like this topic, because Azrael has no feats of strength due to dark angels secrecy. In the fluff I've read Belial has more feats of strength that Azrael.

I will say, for the DA a cunning mind at the helm probably makes more sense than a thick arm... Though that doesn't help much in TTG stats.

Does that mean we have the smartest/most cunning chapter master? WE WIN AT SOMETHING HA!!

Moloc did not simply beat some other space marine chapter he decimated them, killed there chapter master, and took all there stuff they left behind and uses it! As said in the Badab war book the minotaurs were the deciding factor for victory of that war.

 PredaKhaine wrote:

Th0rh4mm3r wrote:
Commander Dante stands a good chance, thought not having Eternal Warrior hurts in a world of S8 powerfists. Lowering stats by 1, from the Death Mask of Sanguinius (including -1 W!) and then possibly doing another wound with the Infernus pistol before charging in (Hammer of Wrath + 6 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's with a reroll...Dante is a beast.

I think Chapter Master vs Chapter Master guarantees M.A.D.

Ill tell you who stands NO chance in a Chapter Master battle...

Gabriel Seth. his rending chainsword will need a incredible set of rolls to win the day.

Dante loses cos've the unwieldy special rule. He has to strike at init 1 with an axe and he doesn't get eternal warrior - so anyone with a powerfist can tiger uppercut him for the win.

Would Kantor stand a chance? I don't know his rules.

He said NON-table top. Which means Dante has a way better chance than you think. After 1000+ years im pretty sure he knows how to use his axe.

 Lobukia wrote:
@Deadshot. The BoM got a bit of a rewrite in the new dex. Calgar does much better against Swarmy the first time. Is in good enough shape afterward to command the fleet action, destroying the hive fleet. He then hunts down the swarmlord and kills it with his "bare hands".

Quite a bit more impressive than before (someone thinks Calgar is their Mary Sue methinks).

Well there's the problem, a complete retcon. In the Nid Dex it states the Swarmlord kicked his blue backside so badly it wasn't even funny and sent him away with his tail between his legs, on the brink of death and would've died if the Chapter Champion hadn't sacrificed himself to save him, and then was stuck commanding the space battle due to injuries.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
@Deadshot. The BoM got a bit of a rewrite in the new dex. Calgar does much better against Swarmy the first time. Is in good enough shape afterward to command the fleet action, destroying the hive fleet. He then hunts down the swarmlord and kills it with his "bare hands".

Quite a bit more impressive than before (someone thinks Calgar is their Mary Sue methinks).

Well there's the problem, a complete retcon. In the Nid Dex it states the Swarmlord kicked his blue backside so badly it wasn't even funny and sent him away with his tail between his legs, on the brink of death and would've died if the Chapter Champion hadn't sacrificed himself to save him, and then was stuck commanding the space battle due to injuries.

Psst, that Swarmlord is always exaggerating things.

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:

Th0rh4mm3r wrote:
Commander Dante stands a good chance, thought not having Eternal Warrior hurts in a world of S8 powerfists. Lowering stats by 1, from the Death Mask of Sanguinius (including -1 W!) and then possibly doing another wound with the Infernus pistol before charging in (Hammer of Wrath + 6 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's with a reroll...Dante is a beast.

I think Chapter Master vs Chapter Master guarantees M.A.D.

Ill tell you who stands NO chance in a Chapter Master battle...

Gabriel Seth. his rending chainsword will need a incredible set of rolls to win the day.

Dante loses cos've the unwieldy special rule. He has to strike at init 1 with an axe and he doesn't get eternal warrior - so anyone with a powerfist can tiger uppercut him for the win.

Would Kantor stand a chance? I don't know his rules.

He said NON-table top. Which means Dante has a way better chance than you think. After 1000+ years im pretty sure he knows how to use his axe.

Dude, you're like 2 pages too late to start correcting stuff
My post was only a response to the above anyway. EDIT:And the OP changed his OP - halfway down the first page, he says

 bigboss1o1 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Asterion Moloc kills them all for snubbing the high lords.

I agree with you completely, but I should have specified I don't mean tabletop I mean if they were truly to meet in combat like in the 40k universe.

Dante has been chapter master for 1100 years - which means he's even older than that. He's one of the oldest living marines in the imperium (if not the oldest - not counting dreads)
I think Dante has as good a chance as anyone in the fluff.
I'm really not anti-dante

I've put together a list of chapter masters that I've heard of (so they must be fairly well known )
Dante
Calgar
Kantor
Moloc
Grimnar
Tu-shan
Zachariah Kersh
Vladimir Pugh
Lord Magyar
Carab Culln
Sarpedon - technically renegade, but still a chapter master iirc. And half spider/half man and a psyker to boot...
Jubal Khan

So are we still thinking one of the big three will win?

Calgar, Dante or Grimnar?

I've always wondered why Pugh and Tu-shan never got as much recognition as Dante, Calgar or Grimnar. They're all first founding chapters. But these two don't even have profiles/stats. Its not fair...

 A GumyBear wrote:
@AlmightWalrus

I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.

Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)

How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.

For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.

 PredaKhaine wrote:

Dante
Calgar
Kantor
Moloc
Grimnar
Tu-shan
Zachariah Kersh
Vladimir Pugh
Lord Magyar
Carab Culln
Sarpedon - technically renegade, but still a chapter master iirc. And half spider/half man and a psyker to boot...
Jubal Khan

How dare you forget Nimrod Grudge!

I would say Konvak Lann would be pretty bad ass as a Chapter Master

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
@AlmightWalrus

I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.

Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)

How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.

For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.

Dante is an old man even with his 1100 plus years we all know power armor is not saving anyone no matter how good and as for grumpy wolfman with his slow cumbersome axe and his lack of stormshield protection does not help him at all.

 bigboss1o1 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
@AlmightWalrus

I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.

Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)

How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.

For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.

Dante is an old man even with his 1100 plus years we all know power armor is not saving anyone no matter how good and as for grumpy wolfman with his slow cumbersome axe and his lack of stormshield protection does not help him at all.

Erm, Dante has Artificer Armour, and no its not the same as power armour. Also I'm sure Moloc is super lightning fast in his slow and cumbersome terminator armour which you can't even do sweeping advances with.

Now don't you have work to do? Huron is still alive out there somewhere and you moved onto killing Necrons without finishing your last job.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 bigboss1o1 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
@AlmightWalrus

I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.

Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)

How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.

For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.

Dante is an old man even with his 1100 plus years we all know power armor is not saving anyone no matter how good and as for grumpy wolfman with his slow cumbersome axe and his lack of stormshield protection does not help him at all.

Erm, Dante has Artificer Armour, and no its not the same as power armour. Also I'm sure Moloc is super lightning fast in his slow and cumbersome terminator armour which you can't even do sweeping advances with.

Now don't you have work to do? Huron is still alive out there somewhere and you moved onto killing Necrons without finishing your last job.

slow? last i checked doesnt Dante have a power axe? thats slow, Moloc's spear on the other hand nope! And does dante have an invul save and if soo im sure its not better than 4++. Oh and Huron we all know will never be what he once was he sucked then he sucks now and sucks on the tabletop too lol Moloc did something worse than killing him he made him inadequate.

 bigboss1o1 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 bigboss1o1 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
@AlmightWalrus

I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.

Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)

How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.

For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.

Dante is an old man even with his 1100 plus years we all know power armor is not saving anyone no matter how good and as for grumpy wolfman with his slow cumbersome axe and his lack of stormshield protection does not help him at all.

Erm, Dante has Artificer Armour, and no its not the same as power armour. Also I'm sure Moloc is super lightning fast in his slow and cumbersome terminator armour which you can't even do sweeping advances with.

Now don't you have work to do? Huron is still alive out there somewhere and you moved onto killing Necrons without finishing your last job.

slow? last i checked doesnt Dante have a power axe? thats slow, Moloc's spear on the other hand nope! And does dante have an invul save and if soo im sure its not better than 4++. Oh and Huron we all know will never be what he once was he sucked then he sucks now and sucks on the tabletop too lol Moloc did something worse than killing him he made him inadequate.

In terms of fluff, a Chapter Master in Artificier Armour equipped with a Jump Pack who has 1100+ years of experience as Chapter Master and performing hit and run attacks would probably beat the snot out of anyone in Terminator Armour, as long as they weren't fighting inside a cramped corridor. The superior mobility of AA/JP compared to Terminator Armour makes a huge difference.

To be fair though, you don't even know what stats or special rules Dante have and yet you immediately dismiss any claims that anyone could ever beat Moloc. Dante probably wouldn't in-game, but there are some Marine HQ Characters that probably would. Abaddon, for one. Logan Grimnar has 7 attacks the first round of battle and will be hitting on 3s rerolling 1s. Calgar stays away and shoots you to death because his AP2 Storm Bolters don't run out of ammo after one shot.

Similarly, if we ignore the "no DIY Chapter Master" limitation for a minute, a Black Templars Chapter Master with the Shield Eternal, Bike and Thunder Hammer would beat the snot out of Asterion "Snowflake" Moloc. He's a really good MEQ HQ killer, but he's not the best there's around. Regardless, we probably want to wait until Moloc's been updated for the new Marine Codex anyway, since Chapter Tactics kinda matter.

 bigboss1o1 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 bigboss1o1 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
@AlmightWalrus

I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.

Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)

How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.

For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.

Dante is an old man even with his 1100 plus years we all know power armor is not saving anyone no matter how good and as for grumpy wolfman with his slow cumbersome axe and his lack of stormshield protection does not help him at all.

Erm, Dante has Artificer Armour, and no its not the same as power armour. Also I'm sure Moloc is super lightning fast in his slow and cumbersome terminator armour which you can't even do sweeping advances with.

Now don't you have work to do? Huron is still alive out there somewhere and you moved onto killing Necrons without finishing your last job.

slow? last i checked doesnt Dante have a power axe? thats slow, Moloc's spear on the other hand nope! And does dante have an invul save and if soo im sure its not better than 4++. Oh and Huron we all know will never be what he once was he sucked then he sucks now and sucks on the tabletop too lol Moloc did something worse than killing him he made him inadequate.

Erm - in your op, you said no tabletop. Look

 bigboss1o1 wrote:
New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.

Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.

Therefore Dante fluff>Moloc fluff = Dante>Moloc

 PredaKhaine wrote:

 bigboss1o1 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 bigboss1o1 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
@AlmightWalrus

I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.

Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)

How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.

For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.

Dante is an old man even with his 1100 plus years we all know power armor is not saving anyone no matter how good and as for grumpy wolfman with his slow cumbersome axe and his lack of stormshield protection does not help him at all.

Erm, Dante has Artificer Armour, and no its not the same as power armour. Also I'm sure Moloc is super lightning fast in his slow and cumbersome terminator armour which you can't even do sweeping advances with.

Now don't you have work to do? Huron is still alive out there somewhere and you moved onto killing Necrons without finishing your last job.

slow? last i checked doesnt Dante have a power axe? thats slow, Moloc's spear on the other hand nope! And does dante have an invul save and if soo im sure its not better than 4++. Oh and Huron we all know will never be what he once was he sucked then he sucks now and sucks on the tabletop too lol Moloc did something worse than killing him he made him inadequate.

Erm - in your op, you said no tabletop. Look

 bigboss1o1 wrote:
New codex I have to ask all you space marines fans out there defend your chapter master this is a no holds barred all CM in one arena free for all (not tabletop) by chapter masters I mean founding chapters, and successors no made up chapter masters. I would have to go with my chapter master Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs with his Black Spear, storm shield, and termie armor his only competition would be Lysander but with his unwieldy thunder hammer would be to slow and get speared through the heart.

Tell how you think this free for all would play out and who would be the last man standing.

Therefore Dante fluff>Moloc fluff = Dante>Moloc

Look im not well versed in Dante'ism but aside from being old as hell what badass stuff has he really done what I really want to know?

Led the Blood Angels for 1100 years (I see this as a major acheivement) - in all that time, no one has ever managed to kill him. A feat unmatched by any other chapter master. Especially considering any member of his chapter is liable to turn into a frothing lunatic at a moments notice. And the BA are THE hand to hand combat chapter.
I'm also sure there's something about him beating Skarbrand

Then there'e the beneath (copied from wikia - it seems roughly right)

WAAAGH! Ghazghkull descends upon the Hive World of Armageddon during the Second War for Armageddon. The Blood Angels are one of three Space Marine Chapters to respond. Such is Lord Commander Dante's reputation that Tu'Shan of the Salamanders and Marneus Calgar of the Ultramarines cede overall command to him

Yep - 2 first founding chapter masters see him and just say 'yep, he can lead us'

Considering how good Calgar is supposed to be in the fluff, what does that say about Dante?

 bigboss1o1 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 bigboss1o1 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
@AlmightWalrus

I fail to see how helbrecht can be the best when he lost his hand to a necron overlord that was hardly trying.

Could Vulkan be the best? I thought there was a book recemtly released that basically made him invulnerable (he has regeneration like wolverine or something whacko like that)

How to spot someone who didn't read the post he's responding to 101... As I said, martial prowess is irrelevant when you have the Chapter Fleet of the Black Templars blowing the planet you're stood on to pieces.

For the record, Helbrecht won the rematch against Imotekh. I'm not seriously saying he'd win in a melee (which you'd know if you'd actually read my post) though. My money's on Dante or Logan.

Dante is an old man even with his 1100 plus years we all know power armor is not saving anyone no matter how good and as for grumpy wolfman with his slow cumbersome axe and his lack of stormshield protection does not help him at all.

Erm, Dante has Artificer Armour, and no its not the same as power armour. Also I'm sure Moloc is super lightning fast in his slow and cumbersome terminator armour which you can't even do sweeping advances with.

Now don't you have work to do? Huron is still alive out there somewhere and you moved onto killing Necrons without finishing your last job.

slow? last i checked doesnt Dante have a power axe? thats slow, Moloc's spear on the other hand nope! And does dante have an invul save and if soo im sure its not better than 4++. Oh and Huron we all know will never be what he once was he sucked then he sucks now and sucks on the tabletop too lol Moloc did something worse than killing him he made him inadequate.

Dante comes with a jump pack and an infernus pistol and also hit & run. Good luck trying to catch him when hes shooting you in the face with a melta weapon.

Yes Dante gets a fine invul save at 4++. Doesn't matter though, even if do get into combat with him he will just hit & run, shoot you with his pistol and then charge you again for the extra attack.

So what your pointing out as Dante's feat of greatness is surviving his own chapter for 1100 years? xD

 Sasa0mg wrote:
So what your pointing out as Dante's feat of greatness is surviving his own chapter for 1100 years? xD

Don't forget that Calgar & Tu'shan both think he is better to lead attack strategy than they are.

That just makes him seen like a strategist then a fighter. Given that the OP is looking for who would win in a brawl I think counts him out just about as much as it does the black templars point earlier about there being a legion to shoot for him.

In the event of Dante vs Moloc, a points been made of him basically kiting and killing with a melta gun, which is a possibility. But I honestly think he has just as much a chance of being instant killed via spear given that unlike moloc he can be.

In hand to hand combat I don't think there is much competition.

I'm not sure of dante's fluff wise but I am inclined to assume moloc has claimed more memorable kills then dante has in battle regardless of the majesty behind him to me he doesn't match up in combat, but as a strategist outside of a brawl as the OP has stated he would be far superior in regards to leading an army I am sure.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:
So what your pointing out as Dante's feat of greatness is surviving his own chapter for 1100 years? xD

Don't forget that Calgar & Tu'shan both think he is better to lead attack strategy than they are.

Also dont forget resisting the red thirst/black rage for that long on top the time it took him to make CM and currently defending Baal against a hive fleet.... commanding not just his chapter but most of its offshoots including renegades (knights of blood).

 Sasa0mg wrote:
That just makes him seen like a strategist then a fighter. Given that the OP is looking for who would win in a brawl I think counts him out just about as much as it does the black templars point earlier about there being a legion to shoot for him.

In the event of Dante vs Moloc, a points been made of him basically kiting and killing with a melta gun, which is a possibility. But I honestly think he has just as much a chance of being instant killed via spear given that unlike moloc he can be.

In hand to hand combat I don't think there is much competition.

I'm not sure of dante's fluff wise but I am inclined to assume moloc has claimed more memorable kills then dante has in battle regardless of the majesty behind him to me he doesn't match up in combat, but as a strategist outside of a brawl as the OP has stated he would be far superior in regards to leading an army I am sure.

No, Dante defeated Skarbrand. Not to mention that he explicitly described as a lead from the front type of chapter master (as if there is any other type), and to lead from the front and still be alive after 1100 years means he is an amazingly competent fighter. He is also an unquestionable master with the jump pack, depicted by the fact that he does not scatter when he deep strikes. Moloc is outclassed here fluff-wise.

Surviving alongside you an army is a lot different to killing reputable targets. The fact he has a jump pack can be testament to his ability to avoid fights that would otherwise have likely claimed his life so I still don't hold his surviving overly above the hundreds of battles Moloc has been in and the targets that he's downed.

And considering this is a brawl that he cannot tactically withdraw away from nor take an army into I think that moloc someone who has killed chapter masters, and spent a great deal of his existence so far undoing marines to the point they are a preferred enemy I think that dante's tactical finesse and ability to survive a broad battle would be overwhelmed when drawn into a 1 v 1 he cannot run or tactically withdraw from.

xD Im not sure this debate is likely to end mind

again, this is only from the wikia

In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.

So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...

 Sasa0mg wrote:
Surviving alongside you an army is a lot different to killing reputable targets. The fact he has a jump pack can be testament to his ability to avoid fights that would otherwise have likely claimed his life so I still don't hold his surviving overly above the hundreds of battles Moloc has been in and the targets that he's downed.

And considering this is a brawl that he cannot tactically withdraw away from nor take an army into I think that moloc someone who has killed chapter masters, and spent a great deal of his existence so far undoing marines to the point they are a preferred enemy I think that dante's tactical finesse and ability to survive a broad battle would be overwhelmed when drawn into a 1 v 1 he cannot run or tactically withdraw from.

xD Im not sure this debate is likely to end mind

Dante won an 1v1 against Skarbrand. The former Champion of Khorne. That good enough for you?

For the record, upon consulting the new Space Marine Codex, I think Helbrecht could probably win 1v1 against Moloc as well, the man killed a Daemon Prince with nothing but a normal combat blade while still a mere Initiate.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
again, this is only from the wikia

In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.

So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...

That quote alone suggests that he has the combat experience of several life times, perspectives and founding if his memories are recorded and passed down. He is then then potentially the strongest of all chapter masters if not now, then in the future as unlike the others he will never truly die but with every death become stronger from having experienced it and gain chance after chance to learn, recover and improve from his past mistakes. Which by now would come to assume he would likely be systematically sound killed of space marines. Sounds almost Saiyan of him.

Of course they neither clarified or verified one way or the other to be true, but if his experience is passed down from 'host to host' and the best equipment money can buy to rebuild him every time I dare say fluff wise means he has more potential then any chapter master.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:
Surviving alongside you an army is a lot different to killing reputable targets. The fact he has a jump pack can be testament to his ability to avoid fights that would otherwise have likely claimed his life so I still don't hold his surviving overly above the hundreds of battles Moloc has been in and the targets that he's downed.

And considering this is a brawl that he cannot tactically withdraw away from nor take an army into I think that moloc someone who has killed chapter masters, and spent a great deal of his existence so far undoing marines to the point they are a preferred enemy I think that dante's tactical finesse and ability to survive a broad battle would be overwhelmed when drawn into a 1 v 1 he cannot run or tactically withdraw from.

xD Im not sure this debate is likely to end mind

Dante won an 1v1 against Skarbrand. The former Champion of Khorne. That good enough for you?

For the record, upon consulting the new Space Marine Codex, I think Helbrecht could probably win 1v1 against Moloc as well, the man killed a Daemon Prince with nothing but a normal combat blade while still a mere Initiate.

This. Dante defeated Skarbrand, that's a big deal. I wasn't referring to his skill with a jump pack as being able to run away either, he is simply too agile for Moloc to handle. Even vanguard veterans scatter 2d6 when deep striking with jump packs, Dante does not scatter at all. This implies that the level of control he has over his jump pack is at an extraordinary level. We have every reason to believe that he would use his jump pack to great effect in a 1v1 battle.

 Sasa0mg wrote:
Surviving alongside you an army is a lot different to killing reputable targets. The fact he has a jump pack can be testament to his ability to avoid fights that would otherwise have likely claimed his life so I still don't hold his surviving overly above the hundreds of battles Moloc has been in and the targets that he's downed.

And considering this is a brawl that he cannot tactically withdraw away from nor take an army into I think that moloc someone who has killed chapter masters, and spent a great deal of his existence so far undoing marines to the point they are a preferred enemy I think that dante's tactical finesse and ability to survive a broad battle would be overwhelmed when drawn into a 1 v 1 he cannot run or tactically withdraw from.

xD Im not sure this debate is likely to end mind

surviving alongside is one thing. 1100 years of spearheading the army across thousands of worlds is another. Just due to his age he will have slain more foes than all save Bjorn. Also, Dante is no coward. Many times he has been grievously injured in the heart of battle, yet he keeps coming back. Thats the reason people believe he is the one from the prophecy. He will not die until the time is right.

 Sasa0mg wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
again, this is only from the wikia

In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.

So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...

That quote alone suggests that he has the combat experience of several life times, perspectives and founding if his memories are recorded and passed down. He is then then potentially the strongest of all chapter masters if not now, then in the future as unlike the others he will never truly die but with every death become stronger from having experienced it and gain chance after chance to learn, recover and improve from his past mistakes. Which by now would come to assume he would likely be systematically sound killed of space marines. Sounds almost Saiyan of him.

Of course they neither clarified or verified one way or the other to be true, but if his experience is passed down from 'host to host' and the best equipment money can buy to rebuild him every time I dare say fluff wise means he has more potential then any chapter master.

That logic holds no weight. The accumulated memories of the previous 6-7 versions of himself that he possesses (allegedly) still doesn't add up to the amount of experience Dante or even Logan has accumulated on their own.

Dante has survived for 1100 years, Logan has survived for 700 years, Moloc has died and had his memories transferred to a new body 7 times over a 500 year span. What does that tell you?