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 Orblivion wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
again, this is only from the wikia

In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.

So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...

That quote alone suggests that he has the combat experience of several life times, perspectives and founding if his memories are recorded and passed down. He is then then potentially the strongest of all chapter masters if not now, then in the future as unlike the others he will never truly die but with every death become stronger from having experienced it and gain chance after chance to learn, recover and improve from his past mistakes. Which by now would come to assume he would likely be systematically sound killed of space marines. Sounds almost Saiyan of him.

Of course they neither clarified or verified one way or the other to be true, but if his experience is passed down from 'host to host' and the best equipment money can buy to rebuild him every time I dare say fluff wise means he has more potential then any chapter master.

That logic holds no weight. The accumulated memories of the previous 6-7 versions of himself that he possesses (allegedly) still doesn't add up to the amount of experience Dante or even Logan has accumulated on their own.

Dante has survived for 1100 years, Logan has survived for 700 years, Moloc has needed his memories transferred to new bodies 7 times over a 500 year span due to death. What does that tell you?

Let me point out Dante has been chapter master for 1100 years... who knows how many more he has served as an initiate, brother and captain before that.

 Sasa0mg wrote:
That just makes him seen like a strategist then a fighter. Given that the OP is looking for who would win in a brawl I think counts him out just about as much as it does the black templars point earlier about there being a legion to shoot for him.

Being a great strategist does not necessarily exclude his skill as a fighter though. Dante does also fight himself and even bar fight brawls can still include tactics.

In the event of Dante vs Moloc, a points been made of him basically kiting and killing with a melta gun, which is a possibility. But I honestly think he has just as much a chance of being instant killed via spear given that unlike moloc he can be.

If he can use that spear in his big clunky termie armour.

In hand to hand combat I don't think there is much competition.

Yeah, Dante wins hands down.

I'm not sure of dante's fluff wise but I am inclined to assume moloc has claimed more memorable kills then dante has in battle regardless of the majesty behind him to me he doesn't match up in combat, but as a strategist outside of a brawl as the OP has stated he would be far superior in regards to leading an army I am sure.

I wouldn't count Dante out, he is a fighter. His fluff states he was the only Blood Angel to come back alive from a space hulk while the rest of his squad was torn to bits. Mission completed I might add unlike that upstarter Moloc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
again, this is only from the wikia

In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.

So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...

Lol, Moloc is the best, despite him dying several times in combat before and being replace by different people on each occasion.

So lets see..........

Dante - has been Chpater Master for AT LEAST 1100 years but nobody else actually knows for how long because they can't even remember a time before Dante

OR

Moloc - has dies several times in combat to be replace by different people and therefore isn't even one guy with one set of accomplishments.

My money is on Dante.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:

In the event of Dante vs Moloc, a points been made of him basically kiting and killing with a melta gun, which is a possibility. But I honestly think he has just as much a chance of being instant killed via spear given that unlike moloc he can be.

If he can use that spear in his big clunky termie armour.

Also TT wise he cant be insta-killed. Fluffwise if you get a meltabeam to the face you dont get back up. And Dante would also have more mobility than Moloc, moving faster in his streamlined nipple armor more likely to dodge that single shot lasor

 Sasa0mg wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
again, this is only from the wikia

In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.

So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...

That quote alone suggests that he has the combat experience of several life times, perspectives and founding if his memories are recorded and passed down. He is then then potentially the strongest of all chapter masters if not now, then in the future as unlike the others he will never truly die but with every death become stronger from having experienced it and gain chance after chance to learn, recover and improve from his past mistakes. Which by now would come to assume he would likely be systematically sound killed of space marines. Sounds almost Saiyan of him.

Of course they neither clarified or verified one way or the other to be true, but if his experience is passed down from 'host to host' and the best equipment money can buy to rebuild him every time I dare say fluff wise means he has more potential then any chapter master.

And Dante already has that without having to be reincarnated.

Number of times Dante has died .. 0 Number of times Moloc has died .. hard to tell. It's like Lucius, he's only good because he can come back to life, being killed and then bought back to life isn't the sign of being awesome, it's a sign that you aren't very good at what you are doing

 Orblivion wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
again, this is only from the wikia

In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.

So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...

That quote alone suggests that he has the combat experience of several life times, perspectives and founding if his memories are recorded and passed down. He is then then potentially the strongest of all chapter masters if not now, then in the future as unlike the others he will never truly die but with every death become stronger from having experienced it and gain chance after chance to learn, recover and improve from his past mistakes. Which by now would come to assume he would likely be systematically sound killed of space marines. Sounds almost Saiyan of him.

Of course they neither clarified or verified one way or the other to be true, but if his experience is passed down from 'host to host' and the best equipment money can buy to rebuild him every time I dare say fluff wise means he has more potential then any chapter master.

That logic holds no weight. The accumulated memories of the previous 6-7 versions of himself that he possesses (allegedly) still doesn't add up to the amount of experience Dante or even Logan has accumulated on their own.

Dante has survived for 1100 years, Logan has survived for 700 years, Moloc has died and had his memories transferred to a new body 7 times over a 500 year span. What does that tell you?

It tells me he is crap in combat and keeps dying.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
again, this is only from the wikia

In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.

So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...

That quote alone suggests that he has the combat experience of several life times, perspectives and founding if his memories are recorded and passed down. He is then then potentially the strongest of all chapter masters if not now, then in the future as unlike the others he will never truly die but with every death become stronger from having experienced it and gain chance after chance to learn, recover and improve from his past mistakes. Which by now would come to assume he would likely be systematically sound killed of space marines. Sounds almost Saiyan of him.

Of course they neither clarified or verified one way or the other to be true, but if his experience is passed down from 'host to host' and the best equipment money can buy to rebuild him every time I dare say fluff wise means he has more potential then any chapter master.

That logic holds no weight. The accumulated memories of the previous 6-7 versions of himself that he possesses (allegedly) still doesn't add up to the amount of experience Dante or even Logan has accumulated on their own.

Dante has survived for 1100 years, Logan has survived for 700 years, Moloc has died and had his memories transferred to a new body 7 times over a 500 year span. What does that tell you?

It tells me he is crap in combat and keeps dying.

Have an exalt

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
again, this is only from the wikia

In this last incident, Moloc was reported initially to have been lost and remained so for some time, which corresponds to at least six other incidents known to wider Imperial record over the last five standard centuries where the Chapter Master of the Minotaurs is thought to have been killed only to later reappear. This, coupled with the Minotaurs Chapter's insularity and the very high level of cybernetic rebuild their master is known to have undergone, has led to the rather extreme supposition by some observers that Asterion Moloc has not been one Space Marine, but many down the centuries, each inheriting not only a name and panopoly as some have suggested but also, and somewhat blasphemously, an engramatically-enforced personality and recorded memories taken from many different lifetimes.

So - Moloc has died a good few times...allegedly. Even I could claim I'm the best chapter master if I keep being brought back after every loss...

That quote alone suggests that he has the combat experience of several life times, perspectives and founding if his memories are recorded and passed down. He is then then potentially the strongest of all chapter masters if not now, then in the future as unlike the others he will never truly die but with every death become stronger from having experienced it and gain chance after chance to learn, recover and improve from his past mistakes. Which by now would come to assume he would likely be systematically sound killed of space marines. Sounds almost Saiyan of him.

Of course they neither clarified or verified one way or the other to be true, but if his experience is passed down from 'host to host' and the best equipment money can buy to rebuild him every time I dare say fluff wise means he has more potential then any chapter master.

That logic holds no weight. The accumulated memories of the previous 6-7 versions of himself that he possesses (allegedly) still doesn't add up to the amount of experience Dante or even Logan has accumulated on their own.

Dante has survived for 1100 years, Logan has survived for 700 years, Moloc has needed his memories transferred to new bodies 7 times over a 500 year span due to death. What does that tell you?

Let me point out Dante has been chapter master for 1100 years... who knows how many more he has served as an initiate, brother and captain before that.

It says AT LEAST 1100 years. He could have been chapter master longer than that in additon to all his years as an intiiative and so on.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

Also TT wise he cant be insta-killed. Fluffwise if you get a meltabeam to the face you dont get back up. And Dante would also have more mobility than Moloc, moving faster in his streamlined nipple armor more likely to dodge that single shot lasor

He's been mentioned before as being rubbish, both in fluff and Table top, but Huron did. At least too half of it.

Actually, come to think of it, Bjorn was Chapter Master for a while and is still alive...ish. Would he count? Because I have a feeling he'd stomp some ass pretty hard.

A little unfair there... Hes a 10,000 year old warrior whos killed more than some whole CHAPTERS and hes in dreadnought armor. And punked a daemon primarch with only 1 person helping him. Plus, ex CM not current so i dont think he'd be allowed

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
A little unfair there... Hes a 10,000 year old warrior whos killed more than some whole CHAPTERS and hes in dreadnought armor. And punked a daemon primarch with only 1 person helping him. Plus, ex CM not current so i dont think he'd be allowed

If the reconstruction thing about Moloc is true then he's also technically an ex-Chapter Master, seeing as he'd have died several times, and thus not eligible to run either.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
A little unfair there... Hes a 10,000 year old warrior whos killed more than some whole CHAPTERS and hes in dreadnought armor. And punked a daemon primarch with only 1 person helping him. Plus, ex CM not current so i dont think he'd be allowed

If the reconstruction thing about Moloc is true then he's also technically an ex-Chapter Master, seeing as he'd have died several times, and thus not eligible to run either.

He currently commands the chapter whereas Bjorn does not, thats what i was pointing out

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
A little unfair there... Hes a 10,000 year old warrior whos killed more than some whole CHAPTERS and hes in dreadnought armor. And punked a daemon primarch with only 1 person helping him. Plus, ex CM not current so i dont think he'd be allowed

If the reconstruction thing about Moloc is true then he's also technically an ex-Chapter Master, seeing as he'd have died several times, and thus not eligible to run either.

Technically he is a current Chapter Master as well as a previous one. Sounds like Moloc has multiple personality issues.

If the only qualification is being alive, does that mean we can wake up sleeping primarchs? LION EL'JOHNSON!!

Niexist wrote:
If the only qualification is being alive, does that mean we can wake up sleeping primarchs? LION EL'JOHNSON!!

He's not really a chapter master though is he...If being in charge of a chapter at some point qualifies you for 'chapter master' then the emperor wins as the titular head of all loyalist marines

Just because someone hasn't died doesn't mean they cant. And knowing you can die and just be reconstructed grants you no fear of dying.

The fact he has died several times in a 500 year span could contest to having faced greater challenges on a personal level then dante.

Just because dante has survived a long period of time and is a capable strategist does not mean that he would overcome Moloc.

I mean firstly you have to keep in mind that moloc is a vet at fighting people like dante.

Second, Dante tactically pulls out of a situation he doesn't believe he can win. Survives another x amount of hears.

Moloc goes in either way, fights his way to the end claiming x amount of lives in the process combating x amount of challenges. His memory is recovered and added to the stock pile.

New Moloc emerges. Of whom benefited more combat expertise from that situation. The one that pulled back or the one that stood and fight.


Without a string of decisive battles (on a personal level, not commanding an army) surviving for such a long period means nothing more then he is a good tactician able to prevent himself from being left in situations he cannot win, not that he is able to overcome all obstacles

as far as TT goes there isn't anything in his wargear, special rules or stat line that makes me believe he would take moloc and in his fluff he is revered to more as a tactician, perhaps the best at leading men and surviving battles not killing fellow space marines.

Killing space marines is Moloc's profession, you think that dante would be the first with a jet pack? Unlikely.

Enjoy that Iniative 1 power axe though while Moloc 1 hands an AP 2 relic blade with the ability to 1 shot him due to lack of eternal warrior (as far as I know anyway!)

I do think calgar would take him but again the fact this guy has a storm shield at least table top wise makes him trickier to deal with then fluff apparently gives him credit for!
Then again Calgar pulls off miracles in fluff like no tomorrow (damn you ultramarine favoritism!)

 PredaKhaine wrote:

Niexist wrote:
If the only qualification is being alive, does that mean we can wake up sleeping primarchs? LION EL'JOHNSON!!

He's not really a chapter master though is he...If being in charge of a chapter at some point qualifies you for 'chapter master' then the emperor wins as the titular head of all loyalist marines

But Moloc could TOTALLY kill the Emperor in a 1v1, he's just THAT good!

 PredaKhaine wrote:

Niexist wrote:
If the only qualification is being alive, does that mean we can wake up sleeping primarchs? LION EL'JOHNSON!!

He's not really a chapter master though is he...If being in charge of a chapter at some point qualifies you for 'chapter master' then the emperor wins as the titular head of all loyalist marines

o-O He is a chapter master, always will be if they keep 'bringing him back' leadership will never pass over.

Molic might, through his memory swapping, become the best around eventually, but I think there are good arguments for Dante, Calgar, Helbrecht, and Grimnar being above him in the fluff right now.

I think Tu'Shan is in that conversation too. I don't think he has a big kill to his name like some of the others, but every time he pops up they mention he's one of the strongest SMs in the galaxy.

Basically, I think those 6 all have pretty good chances against each other.

Him an the emperor would be bros.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:

Niexist wrote:
If the only qualification is being alive, does that mean we can wake up sleeping primarchs? LION EL'JOHNSON!!

He's not really a chapter master though is he...If being in charge of a chapter at some point qualifies you for 'chapter master' then the emperor wins as the titular head of all loyalist marines

But Moloc could TOTALLY kill the Emperor in a 1v1, he's just THAT good!

Ok - Moloc vs the Swarmlord?

When either of them dies, they come back with more knowledge of how to defeat the other resulting in an endless cycle of super deathy death...

 Sasa0mg wrote:
Just because someone hasn't died doesn't mean they cant. And knowing you can die and just be reconstructed grants you no fear of dying.

The fact he has died several times in a 500 year span could contest to having faced greater challenges on a personal level then dante.

Just because dante has survived a long period of time and is a capable strategist does not mean that he would overcome Moloc.

I mean firstly you have to keep in mind that moloc is a vet at fighting people like dante.

Second, Dante tactically pulls out of a situation he doesn't believe he can win. Survives another x amount of hears.

Moloc goes in either way, fights his way to the end claiming x amount of lives in the process combating x amount of challenges. His memory is recovered and added to the stock pile.

New Moloc emerges. Of whom benefited more combat expertise from that situation. The one that pulled back or the one that stood and fight.


Without a string of decisive battles (on a personal level, not commanding an army) surviving for such a long period means nothing more then he is a good tactician able to prevent himself from being left in situations he cannot win, not that he is able to overcome all obstacles

as far as TT goes there isn't anything in his wargear, special rules or stat line that makes me believe he would take moloc and in his fluff he is revered to more as a tactician, perhaps the best at leading men and surviving battles not killing fellow space marines.

Killing space marines is Moloc's profession, you think that dante would be the first with a jet pack? Unlikely.

Enjoy that Iniative 1 power axe though while Moloc 1 hands an AP 2 relic blade with the ability to 1 shot him due to lack of eternal warrior (as far as I know anyway!)

I do think calgar would take him but again the fact this guy has a storm shield at least table top wise makes him trickier to deal with then fluff apparently gives him credit for!
Then again Calgar pulls off miracles in fluff like no tomorrow (damn you ultramarine favoritism!)

So you say dying (and therefore not succeeding) is better than succeeding despite grievous wounds? That many other chapter masters fight like dante? That just because he has a jump pack he fights like all the others with a Jump pack? fluffwise he jumps over Molocs head and cleaves him twain before he can get his bulky buns to turn around. And a power axe being I1 is to keep it from being OP (something FW doesnt care about) in reality you can swing an axe almost as easily as a sword... and Dante is a superhuman space marine with 1100+ years of experience with said axe... hed be pretty fast.

 Sasa0mg wrote:
Just because someone hasn't died doesn't mean they cant. And knowing you can die and just be reconstructed grants you no fear of dying.

The fact he has died several times in a 500 year span could contest to having faced greater challenges on a personal level then dante.

Just because dante has survived a long period of time and is a capable strategist does not mean that he would overcome Moloc.

I mean firstly you have to keep in mind that moloc is a vet at fighting people like dante.

Second, Dante tactically pulls out of a situation he doesn't believe he can win. Survives another x amount of hears.

Moloc goes in either way, fights his way to the end claiming x amount of lives in the process combating x amount of challenges. His memory is recovered and added to the stock pile.

New Moloc emerges. Of whom benefited more combat expertise from that situation. The one that pulled back or the one that stood and fight.


Without a string of decisive battles (on a personal level, not commanding an army) surviving for such a long period means nothing more then he is a good tactician able to prevent himself from being left in situations he cannot win, not that he is able to overcome all obstacles

as far as TT goes there isn't anything in his wargear, special rules or stat line that makes me believe he would take moloc and in his fluff he is revered to more as a tactician, perhaps the best at leading men and surviving battles not killing fellow space marines.

Killing space marines is Moloc's profession, you think that dante would be the first with a jet pack? Unlikely.

Enjoy that Iniative 1 power axe though while Moloc 1 hands an AP 2 relic blade with the ability to 1 shot him due to lack of eternal warrior (as far as I know anyway!)

I do think calgar would take him but again the fact this guy has a storm shield at least table top wise makes him trickier to deal with then fluff apparently gives him credit for!
Then again Calgar pulls off miracles in fluff like no tomorrow (damn you ultramarine favoritism!)

Everyone included in this argument is a space marine, they have no fear of dying by default.

Moloc being a "vet" at fighting people like Dante doesn't make sense, it is almost a given that Logan and Dante have faced every single threat to the Imperium at some point or another. That includes both renegade space marines and Chaos space marines.

You keep suggesting that Dante has only survived as long as he has by running away from fights he can't win, but there is no evidence to back this up. As someone already stated being an excellent strategist does not exclude you from being an excellent fighter.

You have yet to respond to the several mentions of Dante defeating Skarbrand. Not only is Skarbrand a seriously powerful opponent, but why didn't Dante just pull back and "survive another x amount of years"? Because he doesn't do that. The use of his jump pack isn't for running away, it is for jumping back out of reach of your opponent and then charging right back into them.

As far as wargear is concerned, Skarbrand wields two AP2 weapons and yet Dante defeated him. Not to mention what does Moloc intend to do about the Death Mask of Sanguinius?

I think you're exagerrating the maneuverability of a jet pack and the fact that Moloc's weapon is a spear and a shield.

Ultimately he would jump behind him, of which would be no surprise. A parry with the shield and a thrust with the full length of the spear would see Dante impaled.

And yes I'm saying there is more to be learned through attempting and failing then there is to be learnt from either not attempting or attempting from an advantageous position and never failing. Because 1 when you do fail you won't know how to deal with it or what comes next, 2 you will never expect it through self over evaluation.

You mock the guy that you've seen be downed five times until you attempt to do what others before you have done seeing no failure until he tracks your every move and scure's you like a pig.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The death mask merely gives him a greater chance of not being 1 shot by laser.

Yeah, any questioning of Dante's combat ability is suspect when you consider he beat Skarbrand. We're not talking about some random Bloodthirster who gets mentioned only to get stomped and show how powerful someone is (Worffed), we're talking about one of Khorne's strongest servants.

Moloc, based on the way he's being talked about in the thread, seems to suffer from Angron syndrome, that is, he charges in blindly because he thinks martial prowess is the only thing that matters. Meanwhile, all the other CMs set a trap and show him that while he might win the battle, he'd lose a war.

I don't think Moloc is quite like that, but when people say he's willing to fight in unwinnable situations because he knows he can't die, that's what it sounds like.

DogofWar1 wrote:
Yeah, any questioning of Dante's combat ability is suspect when you consider he beat Skarbrand. We're not talking about some random Bloodthirster who gets mentioned only to get stomped and show how powerful someone is (Worffed), we're talking about one of Khorne's strongest servants.

Moloc, based on the way he's being talked about in the thread, seems to suffer from Angron syndrome, that is, he charges in blindly because he thinks martial prowess is the only thing that matters. Meanwhile, all the other CMs set a trap and show him that while he might win the battle, he'd lose a war.

I don't think Moloc is quite like that, but when people say he's willing to fight in unwinnable situations because he knows he can't die, that's what it sounds like.

If ever there were an origin of the Dark Fury special rule I believe that is it.

 Sasa0mg wrote:
I think you're exagerrating the maneuverability of a jet pack and the fact that Moloc's weapon is a spear and a shield.

Ultimately he would jump behind him, of which would be no surprise. A parry with the shield and a thrust with the full length of the spear would see Dante impaled.

You're seriously overestimating the mobility of Terminator Armour, and you're seriously overestimating the capability of anyone to use a shield to block a blow from behind. Similarly, why can't Dante just parry the spear thrust? There's just so much stacking the fight in favour of Moloc that it's ridiculous.

If Dante can move a power axe which is a decisively slow weapon that quickly then I suppose he could. And I'm not overestimating given his rules, and the lack of adoration the chapter gets from GW, given that 'everything about them ever appears to be lost' I am just laying things out in a positive manner for him.

Also Moloc's terminator armor isn't your average terminator armor, while it says that in the wargear section its quite obvious visually and given that he has the backing of the lords of terra it isn't your average stuff. That and a good deal of him isn't even human on account of being heavily constructed through cybernetics.

I just don't think dante is the jesus of 1v1 combat when he comes across as more of a strategic tactician then a master of martial combat


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The one thing about shield and spear combat though, to keep in mind it has the ability to parry and thrust at the same time which is why I think he would be tricky to deal with up close. Especially given the reach that spears bring with them. You would literally have to be hugging the guy to make that not be dangerous.

Or behind him which is easy to do, with a Jump Pack.

It also helps that if we were to actually represent things, Moloc would be in far better armor then Dante with his gear, considering that there's no difference on TT between terminator outfits Moloc is practically in something that would've been roll 3D6 2+ back in second edition.

The problem is that with how it is on the TT it's hard to tell the difference between gear of the same type.