Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello. So I'm wondering how to arm my tactical sergeants. In 5th edition I ran powerfists and combi-meltas, but I'm wondering if I should change it up in this edition.

The combi-melta is definitely my preferred choice, but I'll always listen to other opinions.

As far as melee weapons go, the lightning claw is starting to seem like a better choice. Even if I wanted the ability to wound most infantry on a 2+, I could go with the axe and still save 5 points, since the melta bombs can be used against monstrous creatures now.

What do you guys think?

To reiterate, these are Tactical squads. They are arriving via drop pod, if that helps.

Edit: I've removed the 'other' option. I'm sorry, but I've heard the arguments about NOT taking a melee weapon, I've decided that they are not correct for my situation, and I don't think that they are giving me any useful aid any longer. So now, out of the options presented, which do you feel is the best?

THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD IS AS FOLLOWS: Debating the merits/flaws of close combat weapons available to a tactical sergeant in a Salamanders army, and whether or not melta bombs are a viable accessory. Comments advocating NOT taking a close combat weapon are neither welcome, nor are they on topic. Comments advocating a change in the character's ranged weapon are likewise off-topic and not welcome. If you feel that strongly about the issue, feel free to PM me.

Combi-melta and bolt pistol should be a choice, right? Why waste points on a close combat weapon at all?

 tomjoad wrote:
Combi-melta and bolt pistol should be a choice, right? Why waste points on a close combat weapon at all?

Precisely. There always seems to be a trap that many gamers fall into where they feel they have to buy a cc weapon on every model that can.

Put me down for combi melta without cc. If you got 2 master crafted weapons I might be tempted. But I digress...

In my opinion it would depend on what squad he is in. By all means if he is a humble tactical Sergeant then like everyone has said to date, just a combi-melta is all the Sergeant needs.

Although, if he were the sergeant of an assault or devestator squad you may want to consider a different load out.

Don't fall into the trap of over equipping your Sergeants, they tend to die just as easily as the rest of the squad eventually.

Hmmm. Interesting opinions. I've found that the close-quarters deployment of drop pod tactical squads means that my sergeants either A) pod in nearby assault units and get assaulted, or B) pod in nearby non-assault units and wind up NEEDING to assault.

I have always considered Drop Pod Units expendable, they drop in, hopefully vaporize what ever it was they were shooting at then if they survive past that turn, well good for them.

I try not to sink too many points into them as they have an unfortunate habit of disappearing against a vengeful enemy.

 Archer wrote:
I have always considered Drop Pod Units expendable, they drop in, hopefully vaporize what ever it was they were shooting at then if they survive past that turn, well good for them.

I try not to sink too many points into them as they have an unfortunate habit of disappearing against a vengeful enemy.

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I pretty much only give them a Combi-Weapon and that's it. Maybe melta bombs. The 15+ points can be spent better elsewhere in my army most of the time.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Hmmm. Interesting opinions. I've found that the close-quarters deployment of drop pod tactical squads means that my sergeants either A) pod in nearby assault units and get assaulted, or B) pod in nearby non-assault units and wind up NEEDING to assault.

Needing to assault doesn't mean you need a cc weapon though; more often than not it is better to kill your opponent slower over two rounds of combat than killing him outright in one.

tomjoad wrote:Combi-melta and bolt pistol should be a choice, right? Why waste points on a close combat weapon at all?

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Precisely. There always seems to be a trap that many gamers fall into where they feel they have to buy a cc weapon on every model that can.

yukondal wrote:Put me down for combi melta without cc...

Archer wrote:...By all means if he is a humble tactical Sergeant then like everyone has said to date, just a combi-melta is all the Sergeant needs...

NickTheButcher wrote:...I pretty much only give them a Combi-Weapon and that's it. Maybe melta bombs. The 15+ points can be spent better elsewhere in my army most of the time.

My views.

I think this also depends on how many tactical squads you are bringing to the game.

If you're playing a low point game and filling out the troop choices with scouts and that sort of thing, than your SM are bascially going to behave like elites and you should bring the best that you can.

If you are playing a larger point game and you have 2 or more squads of SM than their equipment adds up really fast and most of the time isn't worth the investment. Is 3 dekced out squads more effective than 4 barbones squads?

Food for thought

Well, my tactical squads do most of the heavy lifting in my army, so I think that putting a close combat weapon in them is going to be a smarter idea than saving myself 20-75 points. At this point, I'm more trying to figure out WHICH CC weapon combination I want, not whether or not I want one. Thanks for the friendly advice to the contrary, though. I always appreciate the input.

Just take master-crafted melta bombs and that's it.

I noticed you were thinking about doing powerfist and meltabombs. Isn't that redundant? Or is there an advantage I haven't figured out?

The_Slight_Brigade wrote:
I noticed you were thinking about doing powerfist and meltabombs. Isn't that redundant? Or is there an advantage I haven't figured out?

2d6 to pen vehicles. Against an ork kan wall or an IG mechanized division, I'll need the extra anti-vehicle. With the proliferation of skimmers in Eldar and Tau lists, I've had more than one game where a tactical sergeant needed to charge a skimmer because his squad's melta shots got Jinked.

Tyberos, I didn't think you could master-craft grenades. Thought that was in the BRB.

 Jimsolo wrote:

The_Slight_Brigade wrote:
I noticed you were thinking about doing powerfist and meltabombs. Isn't that redundant? Or is there an advantage I haven't figured out?

2d6 to pen vehicles. Against an ork kan wall or an IG mechanized division, I'll need the extra anti-vehicle. With the proliferation of skimmers in Eldar and Tau lists, I've had more than one game where a tactical sergeant needed to charge a skimmer because his squad's melta shots got Jinked.

Tyberos, I didn't think you could master-craft grenades. Thought that was in the BRB.

A power fist is almost always better than a melta bomb against vehicles, though-- Land Raiders aside, 3 strength 8 attacks against rear armor will nearly always be better than one strength 8 melta attack against rear armor.

Fair argument. THIS is the kind of discussion I'm interested in here.

Is that worth the five extra points, though? For five points less I can get a power axe (which might as well be a power fist as far as the prevalent T3 and T4 infantry are concerned) or a lightning claw (which isn't hamstringing my initiative, giving me a chance to actually DO some damage to the monstrous creatures that frequently devour my tac squads) plus the melta bombs (which return the ability to damage vehicles and to more reliably wound monstrous creatures that I lost when I traded away the power fist).

There is no point taking axe over fist if you're not going to keep the pistol. They get the same amount of attacks, but fist wounds easier anything with T4 or better (marines, bikes, orks, monstrous creatures), can instakill up to T4, and you don't need melta bomb against vehicles.

Also, are we talking about several squads here? Don't be boring and arm them all identically. Give some Sergeants fists, some claws, and somen can have just the combi. Add melta bombs for those without fists if you feel it's needed.

master crafted multimelta is nice for popping tanks, but the a tac. squad is really more anti-infantry in its nature.

since you removed the other option (for my no cc weapon) i said power axe, as its the chapest close combat weaopon. as you seem hell bent to include at least one cc wepon

 Crimson wrote:
There is no point taking axe over fist if you're not going to keep the pistol. They get the same amount of attacks, but fist wounds easier anything with T4 or better (marines, bikes, orks, monstrous creatures), can instakill up to T4, and you don't need melta bomb against vehicles.

Also, are we talking about several squads here? Don't be boring and arm them all identically. Give some Sergeants fists, some claws, and somen can have just the combi. Add melta bombs for those without fists if you feel it's needed.

No way, I'm with the majority here:

Never, ever, under any circumstance give Tactical squad sergeants CC weapons. Seriously.

Why?

Well first off, anything the squad can't already tackle in CC won't be changed by many degrees at all through the inclusion of a CC weapon. By including one you're killing about average one MEQ a turn.

Whoop de doop. Not even worth it for a brawl against Tacticals with crap averages like that. No Terminators, Khorne Berserkers, Orks, Monstrous Creautures will even be mildly intimidated by the presence of one. They're that crappy, master crafted or not. With a power fist even a S4 I4 enemy that costs half that of the fist alone has a decent chance of wasting your huge investment. I once had a 4 point cultist kill my 40~ point Tac sergeant in a friendly game, just because he struck first.

Second of all, generalization is bad and generally inadvisable. You will not be planning to charge your Tacticals in as soon as possible. Therefore its a defensive measure, and as just pointed out a rather useless one. The Tactical squad will deploy, fire, run, capture an objective and/or die. You do not want a squad that is designed to be inhumanely massacred by every new Codex to be ridiculously over bloated and expensive, with a confused loadout that wrecks the points efficiency of your entire list.

Finally, cost. They're absurdly expensive. You know what else you could be getting with a power weapon? a plasma gun, a marine, many, many other more useful things.

The only weapon that works well on a Sergeant is a combi-weapon, supporting the role of the squad and neutering the lack of impressive firepower it can put out for one turn.

And even if you were to take many CC weapons, mixing and matching them would not be a good idea. You want focus and purpose, not 'how can I waste more points here and there'.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Well first off, anything the squad can't already tackle in CC won't be changed by many degrees at all through the inclusion of a CC weapon. By including one you're killing about average one MEQ a turn.

So that's points paid back in one turn. Sounds good to me.

And even if you were to take many CC weapons, mixing and matching them would not be a good idea. You want focus and purpose, not 'how can I waste more points here and there'.

CC weapons are only worth it against certain foes, and different weapons are good against different foes. It might not be advisable to give all your Sergeants CC weapons, but especially in a drop pod list it might be good idea to give them to one or two of them (Veteran Sergeants, naturally.) With pods you can make sure that the Sergeant ends up close to an enemy unit his weapon is most suited fighting.

Master-crafted combi-weapons only.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Well first off, anything the squad can't already tackle in CC won't be changed by many degrees at all through the inclusion of a CC weapon. By including one you're killing about average one MEQ a turn.

So that's points paid back in one turn. Sounds good to me.

If things in this game were good choices based solely on possibly killing the points you spent on them then everything would be viable. But that's not the case. Let's be honest, why spend 15-25pts to kill one Marine a turn when most things these days can kill half a unit a turn?

 Crimson wrote:

And even if you were to take many CC weapons, mixing and matching them would not be a good idea. You want focus and purpose, not 'how can I waste more points here and there'.

CC weapons are only worth it against certain foes, and different weapons are good against different foes. It might not be advisable to give all your Sergeants CC weapons, but especially in a drop pod list it might be good idea to give them to one or two of them (Veteran Sergeants, naturally.) With pods you can make sure that the Sergeant ends up close to an enemy unit his weapon is most suited fighting.

See here's the problem; 6th edition is too RPS to go full TAC with a decision like that. The idea of taking multiple combat weapons for different situations is nice and all, but the very fact that you mostly won't be needing one or both means it is a high investment in points for a low rate of returns. Also units in 6th tend to be specialised, and Tacs are not good in combat; adding a LC and PF to the Sergeant so he can handle anything still doesn't make them good at combat.

 wtwlf123 wrote:
Master-crafted combi-weapons only.

Your getting free TL on your combi melta and flamers though, so only take the combi plasma for MC. Personally I'd take a combi flamer/melta and melta bombs with free MC... It will hit just as often against vehicles and MC's and has better penetration and results. for only 5 points. So combi melta and MC melta B are 15 total....profit right there...

It's only a free TL on a combi-melta if you take Vulkan.

Flamer and PF, and put the Sarge at the back of the squad, unless you are about to be charged.

Powerfist will kill anything that melta would, use a Combi-Flamer and take Advantage of your Salamanders rules.

A one shot Melta bomb, is not the same as a powerfist on the charge hitting rear armour? (Or has this changed in 6th)

mwnciboo - Are you asking if melta bombs still hit rear armor like normal CC attacks? They do.

Mr. Omega - I appreciate your attempt to help, but as I've already stated, I'm not interested in arguments against CC weapons. Perhaps the game is played differently in your locality, but I find my tactical squads engaged in melee against destroyers, crisis suits, immortals, and bikes far too often to discard an AP 3 weapon. The only valid point you make is that mixing and matching isn't something I'm interested in. Thank you but please stop trying to convince me to avoid a CC weapon. It isn't productive to the thread.

You get one melta bomb, you get more than one Powerfist attack - Mastercrafted Power fist at that.

PF are expensive but they are versatile, ID for T4 - Put out wounds, and hurt MC's yes they die easily as other marines, but that's the other 9 are for "Meat shield". Melta Bombs are cheap but i've never found them to be reliable or versatile. The PF for me is great, with Salamanders better, with Combi-Flamer epic.

A huge problem with the powerfist is that once you get to combat with a squad with a champion (sergeant etc.) wielding a power weapon that strikes on initiative, the powerfist guy is dead before striking a single blow. This is a major weakness that didn't exist in the last edition, yet GW continues to price the powerfists the same way they did in then.