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So i was thinking about two options of a sick death star here using different CT.

It all revolves around a chapter master on a bike with artificier armour and the shield eternal (or a normal storm shield if you dont think you will be facing any st10 insta gib weapons.) Backed up with a bike mounted command squad with an apothecary.
The chap master will be t5 2+/3++ 4w with fnp and eternal warrior, back him up with a powerfist to take any mcs. A tough nut to crack, and on a bike he cant be ignored. His command squad will have 2 storm shields to give a 3++ against any flank shots which dont have the chap master as closest target. If the master has a relic blade and there are 4/5 power weapons plus company champion in the squad it should be an extremely dangerous unit. Especially since command bike squads get +1 attack for ccw + bolt pistol. Throw in some melta bombs and they can take out anything in the game barring flyers. As white scars they will get +1 jink (not that itbwill be needed often with the storm shields) and +1s on hammer of wrath.
Now here's where the option comes in.
Either A) the command squad belongs to kor'sarro khan and the chap master is an allied iron hands master.
Advantages: the chap master gets IWND to make him an even more tough cookie and gets a 6+ fnp in case the apothecary is sniped out.
Disadvantages: cant take advantage of the khans scout bonus or hit and run.
Or B) taking kor'sarro khan again, this time the master is a white scars master.
Advantages: can scout so will often be able to get a first turn charge. Has the option of hit and run if a nasty mc just wont die.
Disadvantages: less tough but still hardcore.
Unlike a lot of death stars, if this is ignored it has the speed to decimate a mega ton of units.

I don't have or run bikes so this is thoretical. But which do you think is more tactically astute?


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And if you are worried about template or ordinance, simply invest in more storm shields.


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Got it to 625pts including 3mbs and 3ss in the command squad. That includes khan, master, apothecary and champion. With 4 power weapons in the command squad (inc champions). Also includes shield eternal. Could put in digital weapons for an extra 10 for that reroll to wound.


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Could cut a lot of that and still be extremely effective at 550.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Either A) the command squad belongs to kor'sarro khan and the chap master is an allied iron hands master.
Advantages: the chap master gets IWND to make him an even more tough cookie and gets a 6+ fnp in case the apothecary is sniped out.

Very bad idea.

Your opponent focus fires models with 5+ cover saves. All the White Scar bikes are in 4+ cover, but the Iron Hands chapter master only has 5+. (Skilled rider does not confer from unit to all models)
Yes he has a 2+ save, but as he is being focus fired he cannot LOS the wounds onto other models. So you just need to do a few wounds to him(alright a lot) but still 6 venoms firing will one shot him.

Either make them all white scar or all iron hand.

That sorts that out then! Hadn't thought about focus fire - thanks!

White scars CM EW shield, Thunderhammer, armor, with khan, apothecary, grav guns couple storm shields

Ally Rune Priest on bike with Jawws

Profit

Otherwise
It is tough, but it cant really deal with 2+ armor (save a few fists). Stormshields also arent that great on things with only a 3+ save normally. Massed fire, from Venoms, missilesides, scatterlasers whatever, will kill your stormshield guys just as easily as it kills normal marines.

With the 5+ or 4+ cover save, you are already protected from low AP shooting to some extent. Massed str6-7 is the problem.

This 650 points is also pretty exclusively good in combat. Yes it can get their fast, but is it going to be able to avoid TH/SS terminators in a raider? What if it cannot find a good unit to charge, is it any good at shooting?

This unit wont fare well against the new honor guard. More attacks, 2+ saves, and tons of power weapons. Sure bikes can probably pick their battles, but if the honor guard are in a landraider you cant really say that. Also if they arent in a raider, they will put a bubble of threat out of things you cant charge or wont go with your bikes.

Im not even sure this matches up that well against AoBF Khorne Lords with bikes. It costs a lot more, it is a little more survivable, and slightly killier. But it costs a ton more.


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tiber55 wrote:
White scars CM EW shield, Thunderhammer, armor, with khan, apothecary, grav guns couple storm shields

Ally Rune Priest on bike with Jawws

Profit

Again with the Focus fire. Your Rune Priest dies first turn to Bolter fire.

You dont need to actually be using the cover save to be able to focus fire.


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IMHO and what I am actually doing.
I am just using a chapter master on a bike with a squad of bikes.
Brings the price down, not as killy for sure, but it is cheaper. It is just as killy at range. Just as fast. And if I need to I can use my chaptermaster to tank wounds to keep a scoring unit alive. Fast scoring units that dont die are incredible valueable.

Just figured it without khan and a few minor things comes to 450. Running as ironhands for the IWND on chap master. So storm shields are doubly effective in comparison to 5+ jink there. All you have to do is change weapons to axes and if it faces honour guard they will still have a 3++ and when striking back will in return ignore their save. Same amount of attacks each apart from champion. Plus +1s. I wouldnt mind striking last if i got a 3++ then wounded on a 3+ ignoring saves. Eapecially when the almost invulnerable master challenges out the honour guards ward. But i do see your point if they are not tooled to take on 2+.


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I am a BA so i think first and foremost about assault... totally against the meta i know.


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Against mass fire the chap master should (i know that is justva should) be tanking wounds.


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And I will still die against th/ss termis... just slower and in a more balanced way lol.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Just figured it without khan and a few minor things comes to 450. Running as ironhands for the IWND on chap master. So storm shields are doubly effective in comparison to 5+ jink there. All you have to do is change weapons to axes and if it faces honour guard they will still have a 3++ and when striking back will in return ignore their save. Same amount of attacks each apart from champion. Plus +1s. I wouldnt mind striking last if i got a 3++ then wounded on a 3+ ignoring saves. Eapecially when the almost invulnerable master challenges out the honour guards ward. But i do see your point if they are not tooled to take on 2+.

Against mass fire the chap master should (i know that is justva should) be tanking wounds.

450 sounds like it might be viable. Like I said I am planning on doing something similar with a regular bike squad. I can totally see the advantages of the command squad over regular bikes, but you have to resist the temptation to overspend.

And it is a hard temptation to resist with deathstars!

 Exergy wrote:
Your opponent focus fires models with 5+ cover saves. All the White Scar bikes are in 4+ cover, but the Iron Hands chapter master only has 5+. (Skilled rider does not confer from unit to all models)
Yes he has a 2+ save, but as he is being focus fired he cannot LOS the wounds onto other models. So you just need to do a few wounds to him(alright a lot) but still 6 venoms firing will one shot him.

A minor point (that doesn't actually chance what you said), Skilled Rider (the USR) does confer from a unit to all models in the unit. However, White Scars don't have Skilled Rider, they specifically have +1 Jink and Automatically Pass Dangerous Terrain, so in that you are right, White Scars don't confer their bonuses to allied ICs in the squad.

That said, why can't you LoS wounds that get allocated to someone with Focus Fire? I admit I haven't read those rules very carefully in a while, but I was under the impression that LoS was a more specific case of allocating (really re-allocating) wounds, so would override the "You can only allocate to models with the specific cover save." Does it have language that specifically prohibits LoS that I just missed?

Models can attempt to LoS as long as they are within 6" of the character. Allocation has nothing to do with this, LoS happens after the allocation has be done, and only changes who suffers the effects of that wound. The rule even explicitly names examples of models which are allowed to make LoS rolls, even though the wound can't be allocated to them.

TehCheator wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Your opponent focus fires models with 5+ cover saves. All the White Scar bikes are in 4+ cover, but the Iron Hands chapter master only has 5+. (Skilled rider does not confer from unit to all models)
Yes he has a 2+ save, but as he is being focus fired he cannot LOS the wounds onto other models. So you just need to do a few wounds to him(alright a lot) but still 6 venoms firing will one shot him.

A minor point (that doesn't actually chance what you said), Skilled Rider (the USR) does confer from a unit to all models in the unit. However, White Scars don't have Skilled Rider, they specifically have +1 Jink and Automatically Pass Dangerous Terrain, so in that you are right, White Scars don't confer their bonuses to allied ICs in the squad.

That said, why can't you LoS wounds that get allocated to someone with Focus Fire? I admit I haven't read those rules very carefully in a while, but I was under the impression that LoS was a more specific case of allocating (really re-allocating) wounds, so would override the "You can only allocate to models with the specific cover save." Does it have language that specifically prohibits LoS that I just missed?

Someone could make their deathstar using whitescars and DA with Sammel in the deathstar unit. He does have skilled rider, which would confer to all the white scars in the unit. Giving them a 3+ cover normally and 2+ turboboosting. He also gives them Fearless and another AP2 CC weapon. Feel free to attempt to focus fire him out, he's even an Eternal warrior.

I'm not sure that pimping out the bike unit itself is the best idea. A couple days after I got the codex I tried out a list with a Bike Master of Death wielding the Burning Blade and I just stuck him in a group of normal bikes w/ some meltaguns. They rode around together acting as a rather sturdy meatshield for the CM until there were juicy targets for combat. I broke the CM off from the bikes and had him do the charging while the bikes remained free to run around meltagunning prime targets. The Chapter Master proceeded to solo two 10-man CSM squads and a Chaos lord w/ termie entourage before finally getting hit by a rhino, of all things, and losing his last wound (it was at endgame, though, and I certainly got good use out of him).

The CM seems more than capable of decimating most units in assault and typically the things you don't want him to try and solo (Hammernators, the Swarmlord, etc.) are the same things you don't want to throw your assault bikes at anyways. Rather than equipping the bikes to wreck face in melee alongside the CM it might be more useful to equip them with shooty weapons that can greatly soften up a target which would otherwise give the CM pause while at full strength.

Likan Wolfsheim wrote:
I'm not sure that pimping out the bike unit itself is the best idea. A couple days after I got the codex I tried out a list with a Bike Master of Death wielding the Burning Blade and I just stuck him in a group of normal bikes w/ some meltaguns. They rode around together acting as a rather sturdy meatshield for the CM until there were juicy targets for combat. I broke the CM off from the bikes and had him do the charging while the bikes remained free to run around meltagunning prime targets. The Chapter Master proceeded to solo two 10-man CSM squads and a Chaos lord w/ termie entourage before finally getting hit by a rhino, of all things, and losing his last wound (it was at endgame, though, and I certainly got good use out of him).

The CM seems more than capable of decimating most units in assault and typically the things you don't want him to try and solo (Hammernators, the Swarmlord, etc.) are the same things you don't want to throw your assault bikes at anyways. Rather than equipping the bikes to wreck face in melee alongside the CM it might be more useful to equip them with shooty weapons that can greatly soften up a target which would otherwise give the CM pause while at full strength.

This is spot on

PanzerLeader wrote:

Likan Wolfsheim wrote:
I'm not sure that pimping out the bike unit itself is the best idea. A couple days after I got the codex I tried out a list with a Bike Master of Death wielding the Burning Blade and I just stuck him in a group of normal bikes w/ some meltaguns. They rode around together acting as a rather sturdy meatshield for the CM until there were juicy targets for combat. I broke the CM off from the bikes and had him do the charging while the bikes remained free to run around meltagunning prime targets. The Chapter Master proceeded to solo two 10-man CSM squads and a Chaos lord w/ termie entourage before finally getting hit by a rhino, of all things, and losing his last wound (it was at endgame, though, and I certainly got good use out of him).

The CM seems more than capable of decimating most units in assault and typically the things you don't want him to try and solo (Hammernators, the Swarmlord, etc.) are the same things you don't want to throw your assault bikes at anyways. Rather than equipping the bikes to wreck face in melee alongside the CM it might be more useful to equip them with shooty weapons that can greatly soften up a target which would otherwise give the CM pause while at full strength.

This is spot on

Yes, Yes it is spot on. I know. My IG have been on the recieving end of PanzerLeaders bike army.

I put this list together as fast as I could once the codex was released. I was worried fielding only four troop choices but really there are 38 scoring troops so it is not terrible. It is capable of great first and second turns. I am not saying it cannot be beat. Obviously deathstars have their weaknesses with so many eggs in one basket. But played to its strengths it has performed well in the one game I got in. Of course it requires more testing. So do not bring that up. But in the meta today it should handle MCs, flyers, elite troops, wave serpents ... the notion that killing my rune priest will stop me - as mentioned above - is just not true. Of course I want him to survive but I can lose any one character from the deathstar and still have a potent scoring unit. And those ICs can detach if necessary or warranted to take out a second transport or go after a non-cc squad.

----SWIH----

155 - Rune Priest: Runic Axe; Runic Armour; Bike; JotWW/TW  --  Space Wolves  

245 - Wolf Lord:, Frost Axe; Storm Shield; Wolf Tooth Necklace; Saga of the Bear; Bike  --  Space Wolves - Warlord Personal

250 - Chapter Master; Artificier Armour; Shield Eternal; Thunder Hammer; Bike   --  Iron Hands 

145 - 5 Bikers: 2 Grav Guns; Combi-Grav   --  Iron Hands

360 - 2x 10 Grey Hunter: 2 Meltagun; Wolf Standard; Mark of the Wulfen; Power Axe; Drop Pod  --  Space Wolves 

220 - 10 Grey Hunters: 2 Plasmguns; Wolf Standard; Mark of the Wulfen; Power Axe; Drop Pod  --  Space Wolves 


160 - 6 Long Fangs: 3 Missile Launchers; 2 Plasma Cannon --  Space Wolves  

215- Contemptor Mortis Pattern Dreadnought: 2 Kheres Assault Cannons, Cyclone Missile Launcher   --  Iron Hands

----1850----

The deathstar is brutal following on the heels of the drop pods. Two characters with eternal warrior that hit in cc hard. If the Wolf Lord gets a good trait it is even better and almost all the traits are good in personal. I have concussion/jaws combo of course. Best is the fadct that this unit is also scoring. It can tank a lot of dakka, it can use its TL bolters on low toughness units if needed - not a unit you want to take overwatch from either. Of course we are talking 800 points here. It better be good.

I have a contemptor dread with IWND, 5+ inv. and AV13. Might be the best AA in the space marine codex. The long fangs are configured to split fire obviously.

I played against a friend's new SMurf army a week ago, and he fielded basically exactly this. He had SS on most of the command squad with added grav guns, Khan AND Chapter Master (burning blade, I believe?). @ 1250, the rest of his army was 2x 5 bikes for troops, and 3 centurion with grav cannons.

I played DE; 2x 10 warriors with SC in NS Raider, 9 wracks with haemy in NS Raider, 5 haywire wyches in dual SC Venom, 3 trueborn with 2x SC in dual SC Venom, 6x Reaver with Blaster and dual Ravager.

Game type was Relic. I focused down his troop squads over the first two turns, then managed to gank the centurions with the wych venom and one warrior venom. Fired EVERYTHING ELSE at the deathstar squad. I managed to table him Turn 7. That said, he wrecked me pretty bad. All I had left was half a group of wyches, most of a group of warriors, the trueborn, an immobilized venom, a venom and a raider.

What he didn't do was split up that unit until T6. By that point his army was down to the Apothecary, Khan, and the Chapter Master, with wounds on both the ICs.
So clearly some strategy is required.

Played him a second time; my CSM & Tau vs White Scars (basically the same list, add land raider for centurions) & Tyranids, 1500pts each. They conceded turn 4; we had the bike deathstar gone by top of turn 2.

So maybe don't put ALL your eggs in one basket.

Yeh i would take it without khan though now. And only a couple of ss (475pts). Never in a 1250 battle though! Im begining to like exergy and likans idea of normal bike squads along withbthe master now...


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In fact, you're all definitely right. Normal bike squad is the way to go! Thanks for the tip!

I played against a friend's new SMurf army a week ago, and he fielded basically exactly this.

Actually the list you are describing is quite different. Although I admit that all your eggs in one basket is not wise - just fun. I am going to be dropping my WL for 4 hyperios batteries once they arrive from FW - should change things up.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Got it to 625pts including 3mbs and 3ss in the command squad. That includes khan, master, apothecary and champion. With 4 power weapons in the command squad (inc champions). Also includes shield eternal. Could put in digital weapons for an extra 10 for that reroll to wound.

Could cut a lot of that and still be extremely effective at 550.

Here is a problem I see. I can make a seer council deathstar for 630 points. That would include 2 warlocks, 2 farseers and the baron. The seer council is --much-- more dangerous and durable than the bike command squad.

I think the C:SM is a good codex. However, it can't throw out a solid deathstar. There are really only 4 deathstars in the game right now that function, and marines only possess one of them -- paladins.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Got it to 625pts including 3mbs and 3ss in the command squad. That includes khan, master, apothecary and champion. With 4 power weapons in the command squad (inc champions). Also includes shield eternal. Could put in digital weapons for an extra 10 for that reroll to wound.

Could cut a lot of that and still be extremely effective at 550.

Here is a problem I see. I can make a seer council deathstar for 630 points. That would include 2 warlocks, 2 farseers and the baron. The seer council is --much-- more dangerous and durable than the bike command squad.

I think the C:SM is a good codex. However, it can't throw out a solid deathstar. There are really only 4 deathstars in the game right now that function, and marines only possess one of them -- paladins.

Is the Swarmstar (Swarmlord, Tyrant Guard, Warrior prime) one of them?

And what about the Royal Court disco inferno?

 Kain wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Got it to 625pts including 3mbs and 3ss in the command squad. That includes khan, master, apothecary and champion. With 4 power weapons in the command squad (inc champions). Also includes shield eternal. Could put in digital weapons for an extra 10 for that reroll to wound.

Could cut a lot of that and still be extremely effective at 550.

Here is a problem I see. I can make a seer council deathstar for 630 points. That would include 2 warlocks, 2 farseers and the baron. The seer council is --much-- more dangerous and durable than the bike command squad.

I think the C:SM is a good codex. However, it can't throw out a solid deathstar. There are really only 4 deathstars in the game right now that function, and marines only possess one of them -- paladins.

Is the Swarmstar (Swarmlord, Tyrant Guard, Warrior prime) one of them?

And what about the Royal Court disco inferno?

Never heard of a Swarmstar. I thought the Stormlord couldn't join units as he's not an IC, no?

I think the four labmouse refers to are Seerstar, Screamerstar, Paladinstar and the Farsight Bomb.

Nob bikers also work pretty well, even though the rest of the codex doesn't.