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sirlynchmob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
the psychic powers spell it out 4 times that "different powers are cumulative" when you pick psychic powers you are told different psychers can take the SAME power.

yes it says "different powers are cumulative" but no where does it say "same powers are not cumulative".

different: permission granted
same: no permission
they don't need to specify same powers are not cumulative as they are never given permission to be cumulative.

Yes they are given permission to be cumulative, it is on Page 2, Multiple modifiers, that is what tells you that 4 -1(From enfeeble) -1(From a different psykers enfeeble) = 2

So 4-1-1=2 as per the BRB.

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
the psychic powers spell it out 4 times that "different powers are cumulative" when you pick psychic powers you are told different psychers can take the SAME power.

yes it says "different powers are cumulative" but no where does it say "same powers are not cumulative".

different: permission granted
same: no permission
they don't need to specify same powers are not cumulative as they are never given permission to be cumulative.

Yes they are given permission to be cumulative, it is on Page 2, Multiple modifiers, that is what tells you that 4 -1(From enfeeble) -1(From a different psykers enfeeble) = 2

So 4-1-1=2 as per the BRB.

And this is why I believe your argument to be wrong.

the rules tell you what modifiers you get to use. You need to be granted the second modifier to be able to use it under multiple modifiers. You're skipping a step.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
the psychic powers spell it out 4 times that "different powers are cumulative" when you pick psychic powers you are told different psychers can take the SAME power.

yes it says "different powers are cumulative" but no where does it say "same powers are not cumulative".

different: permission granted
same: no permission
they don't need to specify same powers are not cumulative as they are never given permission to be cumulative.

The permission allowance has been demonstrated so many times.
You have permissio to cast a power and apply the effects.
You have permissionto cast the power again (with a different Psyker) and apply the effects.
Permission has been granted. At no point is it taken away.

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
the psychic powers spell it out 4 times that "different powers are cumulative" when you pick psychic powers you are told different psychers can take the SAME power.

yes it says "different powers are cumulative" but no where does it say "same powers are not cumulative".

different: permission granted
same: no permission
they don't need to specify same powers are not cumulative as they are never given permission to be cumulative.

The permission allowance has been demonstrated so many times.
You have permissio to cast a power and apply the effects.
You have permissionto cast the power again (with a different Psyker) and apply the effects.
Permission has been granted. At no point is it taken away.

And you skip over the part under maledictions "bonuses and penalties from different maledictions are always cumulative"
Yes it's a note, but it's a note derived from the rule "unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative"
Enfeeble says nothing about it being cumulative with itself, ergo it's not.
Therefore you only get the 1 (-1) penalty. You are never given, nor even hinted at getting a second one.
The second enfeeble is resolved and has no effect as it is not cumulative with the first one.

you skip that part and go straight to modifying characteristics.

 Quanar wrote:
Whilst I personally feel that the same power from a different psyker shouldn't stack, Rigeld and Happy both seem to agree which is generally a solid argument in and of itself.

Just because rigeld and I agree does not mean we are automatically right, although usually we are.

sirlynchmob, "bonuses and penalties from different maledictions are always cumulative" does not mean bonuses and penalties from the same maledictions are not cumulative, Stop reading it that way.

 DeathReaper wrote:
sirlynchmob, "bonuses and penalties from different maledictions are always cumulative" does not mean bonuses and penalties from the same maledictions are not cumulative, Stop reading it that way.

However, nowhere in the BRB does it state bonuses and/or penalties from multiple uses of the same ability are cumulative. Being a permissive rule set, which does give permission for different abilities to be cumulative, the lack of permission for same to stack pretty much means same is not cumulative. Permission to cast only equals permission to cast, because resolution has nothing to do with the casting after a power has been successfully cast. As to permission to resolve equaling permission to stack, per the BRB we are given specific permission for effects from different (not same, not any) powers to stack; the powers will still resolve, but due to the rules as written any modifiers would be applied once rather than multiple times. And don't look to page 2 for support, as there are no examples of multiples of the same modifier being applied. Page tells us the order in which GW wants us to apply different modifiers, because later on in the BRB we are told that only different modifiers are cumulative.

If you want to see actual RAW supporting stacking, you need to refer to 5th ed, not 6th.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
sirlynchmob, "bonuses and penalties from different maledictions are always cumulative" does not mean bonuses and penalties from the same maledictions are not cumulative, Stop reading it that way.

However, nowhere in the BRB does it state bonuses and/or penalties from multiple uses of the same ability are cumulative. Being a permissive rule set, which does give permission for different abilities to be cumulative, the lack of permission for same to stack pretty much means same is not cumulative. Permission to cast only equals permission to cast, because resolution has nothing to do with the casting after a power has been successfully cast. As to permission to resolve equaling permission to stack, per the BRB we are given specific permission for effects from different (not same, not any) powers to stack; the powers will still resolve, but due to the rules as written any modifiers would be applied once rather than multiple times. And don't look to page 2 for support, as there are no examples of multiples of the same modifier being applied. Page tells us the order in which GW wants us to apply different modifiers, because later on in the BRB we are told that only different modifiers are cumulative.

If you want to see actual RAW supporting stacking, you need to refer to 5th ed, not 6th.

SJ

So you're ignoring multiple modifiers AND citing incorrect rules? Awesome batting average yo.

this is the enfeeble debate, this is RAW:inconclusive RAI: 50/50 you choose

 grendel083 wrote:

You have permissio to cast a power and apply the effects.
You have permissionto cast the power again (with a different Psyker) and apply the effects.
.

Both true. Where do you have permission for those two powers to act in a cumulative manner? The question is not whether you can use and resolve the power or not. The question is are those effects cumulative? If no, you resolve the second (same) power and nothing more happens.

Permission to use and resolve is not enough to prove it is cumulative.

You have two modifiers that must be applied.
Multiple Modifiers (page 2) tells us how to apply both modifiers with no conflicts.
There is no rule denying both modifiers applying.

Cite the denial.

 Abandon wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

You have permissio to cast a power and apply the effects.
You have permissionto cast the power again (with a different Psyker) and apply the effects.

Both true. Where do you have permission for those two powers to act in a cumulative manner?

Maths.
Maths gives me permission.
4-1-1=2
Not 3.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

You have permissio to cast a power and apply the effects.
You have permissionto cast the power again (with a different Psyker) and apply the effects.

Both true. Where do you have permission for those two powers to act in a cumulative manner?

Maths.
Maths gives me permission. [As noted on page 2, Multiple modifiers]
4-1-1=2
Not 3.

Added the underlined text for clarity.

rigeld2 wrote:You have two modifiers that must be applied.
Multiple Modifiers (page 2) tells us how to apply both modifiers with no conflicts.
There is no rule denying both modifiers applying.

Cite the denial.

You are jumping to conclusions here. If the powers do not act cumulatively, there is no additional modifier to apply even with both powers resolving. How the power resolves (cumulatively or non-cumulatively) determines if there are any additional modifiers.

grendel083 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

You have permissio to cast a power and apply the effects.
You have permissionto cast the power again (with a different Psyker) and apply the effects.

Both true. Where do you have permission for those two powers to act in a cumulative manner?

Maths.
Maths gives me permission.
4-1-1=2
Not 3.

Basic math only works with things that are cumulative. Assuming you can apply basic math is the same as assuming they accumulate.

(They are cumulative because of basic math) = (They are cumulative because they are cumulative)
Not a sound argument

The only argument againgst stacking as of now that has any weight is based of of interpretation that the mentioning of "same power" is taken to a literal extreme.


I'm more towards leaning to you can stack, since their is permission to stack effects given.

You can bring up the fact that it says different powers only, however how many different powers do the same stat penalty in order for stacking to even come up?

I firmly believe that an Enfeeble cast from one psycher is a different power than an enfeeble cast from another psycher since it even mentions that the brb powers are just generic versions and psychers can preform them through many different means.

Yeah i know its just fuff, but reading the fluff is how you interpret intention of the writer if rules are not clear.

 DeathReaper wrote:
sirlynchmob, "bonuses and penalties from different maledictions are always cumulative" does not mean bonuses and penalties from the same maledictions are not cumulative, Stop reading it that way.

It's the only way to read it. If you are correct, then they wouldn't need to specify it over and over again in the psychic rules.

It's there, it's there for a reason. A reason you can not explain when you want to allow all powers to stack.

If all powers stack regardless of if they are the same power or not, then why restate that different powers are cumulative and restate it two more times?

it's a part of resolving the power, and it stops the same powers from stacking, it's the only reason for it to be there. So as you never have permission for enfeeble to stack with itself, you don't need a rule restricting it. So you can resolve enbeeble 100 times if you want, they are not cumulative, you only get a single -1T.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
sirlynchmob, "bonuses and penalties from different maledictions are always cumulative" does not mean bonuses and penalties from the same maledictions are not cumulative, Stop reading it that way.

It's the only way to read it.

It really isn't because the Rules never actually say that ( bonuses and penalties from the same maledictions are not cumulative)

permissive ruleset says that we have permission to cast enfeeble twice on the same unit, we have permission, through page 2, to use math, ergo they stack unless the permission is restricted in some rule. Can you cite a rule that says ( bonuses and penalties from the same maledictions are not cumulative)

If you are correct, then they wouldn't need to specify it over and over again in the psychic rules.

It's there, it's there for a reason. A reason you can not explain when you want to allow all powers to stack.

If all powers stack regardless of if they are the same power or not, then why restate that different powers are cumulative and restate it two more times?

it's a part of resolving the power, and it stops the same powers from stacking, it's the only reason for it to be there. So as you never have permission for enfeeble to stack with itself, you don't need a rule restricting it. So you can resolve enbeeble 100 times if you want, they are not cumulative, you only get a single -1T.

They write redundant rules all the time, they do not need to specify things twice, but sometimes they do. That is the reason it is there, redundancy.

the underlined needs a rules citation to be valid.

For those arguing that affirming that different powers stack magically stops the same power from stacking, you are wrong, you have been proven wrong, and dully repeating the same disproved argument does not make you appear right, it makes you appear moronic.

The basic rules clearly support the ability to cast and resolve multiple iterations of the same power on a single target, the real reason why Enfeeble might not stack is because of the wording "Whilst the power is in effect". Does "the power" mean that casting of the power or the power in and of itself? Feel free to argue, I'm going with "I don't know, lol".

 PrinceRaven wrote:
For those arguing that affirming that different powers stack magically stops the same power from stacking, you are wrong, you have been proven wrong, and dully repeating the same disproved argument does not make you appear right, it makes you appear moronic.

The basic rules clearly support the ability to cast and resolve multiple iterations of the same power on a single target, the real reason why Enfeeble might not stack is because of the wording "Whilst the power is in effect". Does "the power" mean that casting of the power or the power in and of itself? Feel free to argue, I'm going with "I don't know, lol".

Im going with the first option myself. It is definately refferring to that singular casting of the power and not the power itself.

Eihnlazer wrote:
The only argument againgst stacking as of now that has any weight is based of of interpretation that the mentioning of "same power" is taken to a literal extreme.


I'm more towards leaning to you can stack, since their is permission to stack effects given.

You can bring up the fact that it says different powers only, however how many different powers do the same stat penalty in order for stacking to even come up?

I firmly believe that an Enfeeble cast from one psycher is a different power than an enfeeble cast from another psycher since it even mentions that the brb powers are just generic versions and psychers can preform them through many different means.

Yeah i know its just fuff, but reading the fluff is how you interpret intention of the writer if rules are not clear.

How is determining what GW considers 'different' and 'same' powers taking it to an extreme?

The only line of logic that has been presented as such permission I have shown to be flawed.

I don't own all the codices so i couldn't say. Does not effect what the rules say anyway.

Fluff is just fluff.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every reason given so far as to why 'same powers' should be treated cumulatively is in actuality based on an incorrect RAW definition of 'different power', flat-out assumption or use of circular reasoning.

To sum it up:

"different Psykers in the same army can have the same psychic power(s)." page 418 BRB
Different Psyker - still the same power
"Psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more"than once each turn..." page 67 BRB
Different 'casting' - still the same power

'you're allowed to resolve each power both times so the effects happen twice and the modifiers need to be applied twice'
A flat-out assumption that they are handled in a cumulative fashion

'basic math says they stack'
Circular reasoning, basic math only works with things that are cumulative.

The crux of the disagreement is what constitutes "different" psychic powers.

Argument A would have you believe that a psychic power is different if it manifested using a different psychic test. Either a later test from the same psyker or a different psyker all together.

Argument B would have you believe that a psychic power is only different if it has a different name.

While its not 100% clear what is "different" by RAW I feel fairly confident Argument B is correct. Pg67 tells us a psyker cannon manifest the same psychic power more then once each turn. For this to make sense being the same/different needs to be determined by the power's name not when it was manifested.

The second disagreement stems from the fact that bonus or penalties from different powers of a given type are always cumulative.

Argument A would have you believe that all powers stack.

Argument B would have you believe only powers with different names stack.

Neither is correct. A psychic power that produces a characteristic modifier will stack with other manifestations of the same psychic power unless specifically stated otherwise in the power. The statements that different powers of a given type are always cumulative does not mean that two manifestations of the same power are never cumulative . It also does not mean that all manifestations of psychic powers of a given type will always be cumulative. It only means that two different powers of a given type will never specify that they do not stack with each other. This is why its in a note, its just a reminder of how things will work and is not in itself making a rule.

Pg 2 give different manifestations for the same power permission to stack. That permission can be revoked by the power itself. The notes on pgs 68-69 only serve to remind us that powers of given type will never revoke this for other powers of that same type.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Neither is correct. A psychic power that produces a characteristic modifier will stack with other manifestations of the same psychic power unless specifically stated otherwise in the power. The statements that different powers of a given type are always cumulative does not mean that two manifestations of the same power are never cumulative . It also does not mean that all manifestations of psychic powers of a given type will always be cumulative. It only means that two different powers of a given type will never specify that they do not stack with each other. This is why its in a note, its just a reminder of how things will work and is not in itself making a rule.

The above statement is incorrect. Permission is only given for modifiers from different Blessings and Malediction to be cumulative, unless otherwise noted within a specific psychic power's rules. There are at least 2 psychic powers printed in 6th Edition codexes what have verbiage telling us that multiple uses of those powers are cumulative. As a counter point, the majority of psychic powers in the the game do not include verbiage allowing effects to be cumulative.

The crux of the issue is the Side A thinks "different castings of Same powers = Different powers", while Side B thinks "different castings of Same powers = Same powers".

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Permission is only given for modifiers from different Blessings and Malediction to be cumulative, unless otherwise noted within a specific psychic power's rules.

Page 2 grants permission for all modifiers from all sources to be cumulative.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Permission is only given for modifiers from different Blessings and Malediction to be cumulative, unless otherwise noted within a specific psychic power's rules.

Page 2 grants permission for all modifiers from all sources to be cumulative.

Citation, please.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Permission is only given for modifiers from different Blessings and Malediction to be cumulative, unless otherwise noted within a specific psychic power's rules.

Page 2 grants permission for all modifiers from all sources to be cumulative.

Citation, please.

SJ

Page 2, where is discusses Multiple modifiers, he did cite it...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Permission is only given for modifiers from different Blessings and Malediction to be cumulative, unless otherwise noted within a specific psychic power's rules.

Page 2 grants permission for all modifiers from all sources to be cumulative.

Citation, please.

SJ

Page 2, where is discusses Multiple modifiers, he did cite it...

No he didn't. Nowhere on pg. 2 does it state that multiple modifiers from the same source are cumulative. I challenge anyone to quote a passage from the BRB that states multiple modifiers from the same source are cumulative. Find one example, just one, and you will win this argument. If you cannot quote a single passage stating this, then you literally have nothing to support your position.

SJ

 DJGietzen wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Permission is only given for modifiers from different Blessings and Malediction to be cumulative, unless otherwise noted within a specific psychic power's rules.

Page 2 grants permission for all modifiers from all sources to be cumulative.

And permission to apply additional modifiers from a second source that is not permitted to act cumulatively with the first? Page 2 only comes into play if any additional modifiers are applied. Applying additional modifiers requires the powers to be cumulative and such permission is not granted.

If the BRB said nothing about any power being cumulative I'd agree.
The default way of thinking about things is cumulatively because that is the way most things work and in most cases can be assumed. 1 + 1 = 2, four apples minus three apples equals one apple, etc. Not everything works like that though and if GW is going to specify that some things do work that way on what basis do we declare all of it works that way unless otherwise stated? In essence, we cannot reasonably assume 'stacking' because they actually tells us what stacks(modifiers, different psychic powers, wounds, etc).

Yes, modifiers stack but if the effect that causes those modifiers does not then additional application of that effect creates no new modifiers to stack. Adding anything in addition to the first application of the power requires permission that is not granted in the case of 'same' psychic powers. Essentially, if modifiers were applied they would stack per page 2 but why are you applying more modifiers from powers are not permitted stack?

Nothing new in this thread...

jeffersonian000 wrote:cumulative. I challenge anyone to quote a passage from the BRB that states multiple modifiers from the same source are cumulative. Find one example, just one, and you will win this argument. If you cannot quote a single passage stating this, then you literally have nothing to support your position.

SJ

Well, given multiple modifiers are cumulative, and it places no limits on source, then yes, it has been cited

YOu are looking, yet again, for a restriction that doesnt exist in the actual rules, and making up a requirement that also doesnt exist in the written rules

Yep, nothing new in this thread.

And you, sir, yet again fail to back up your statement with evidence.

SJ