Chaos Undivided or the Orks:The only hope for the Milky Way Galaxy

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**xole**

Kain wrote:
Exergy wrote:
TiamatRoar wrote:

We'll assume Dark Eldar shares their's with the Eldar (Ynnead). If not, then they're basically the same as the Tau.

The DE might be a smaller faction, but they are living outside of realspace so it is possible the nids come in, completely pass through the galaxy and then leave.

It's quite likely there are no galaxies in the local cluster to flee to. It's quite likely that both the Triangulum and Andromeda galaxies as well as their satellites are all stripped bare.

Or that there is something there the Tyranids fleed from.

There really aren't any winners in this universe.

**Stormphoenix**

The whole Chaos burning itself out bit if Chaos won was an outright falsehood. There are plenty of examples of entire Chaos aligned planets happily getting along with life in relative peace and quiet (by Chaos standards anyway). See Gaunts Ghosts, a lot of the worlds in the Sabbat Cluster have been fully devoted to Chaos for centuries and only a small proportion are frothing lunatics.

**Jehan-reznor**

The Eldar will hide in the webway and tyranid war pressencse will just erase the dark gods.

**TiamatRoar**

Stormphoenix wrote:
The whole Chaos burning itself out bit if Chaos won was an outright falsehood. There are plenty of examples of entire Chaos aligned planets happily getting along with life in relative peace and quiet (by Chaos standards anyway). See Gaunts Ghosts, a lot of the worlds in the Sabbat Cluster have been fully devoted to Chaos for centuries and only a small proportion are frothing lunatics.

Of note also is that the Gaunt's Ghost series where there are Chaos planets surviving just fine ("fine" by chaos definition, at least) instead of burning themselves out was written by the same guy that wrote Legion where the Cabal claims chaos would burn itself out.

Although to be fair, I think the Cabal's actual forecast wasn't that Chaos would burn itself out. But that Horus would get super pissed at himself and destroy everything in a fit of "What have I done!?", which makes a lot more sense because the gods aren't so stupid as to burn themselves out. This would imply that a pissed off death-seeker Horus is capable of going against the gods, which I suppose has other implications throughout the series considering that Horus is clearly deciding to follow his own agenda instead of the gods to the point where Erebus gets mad at him.

......am I right on that, come to think about it? Where does this "Chaos will burn itself out" idea come from anyways? I don't think that's what the Cabal said at all but I haven't read the book in forever. What they said was that Horus, in a twisted attempt at seeking redemption, would go purposefully destroy Chaos and everything else, didn't they?

**Exergy**

Horus654 wrote:
Exergy wrote:
TiamatRoar wrote:

We'll assume Dark Eldar shares their's with the Eldar (Ynnead). If not, then they're basically the same as the Tau.

The DE might be a smaller faction, but they are living outside of realspace so it is possible the nids come in, completely pass through the galaxy and then leave.

And go where exactly? The closest galaxy, Andromeda, is 2.54 million light-years away from us. That is unbelievably, mind bogglingly far away, and might have been eaten by the Nids already. There is no escaping them,only fighting and maybe, just maybe rebuking them.

and stay in their nice little webway forever

**Kain**

xole wrote:
Kain wrote:
Exergy wrote:
TiamatRoar wrote:

We'll assume Dark Eldar shares their's with the Eldar (Ynnead). If not, then they're basically the same as the Tau.

The DE might be a smaller faction, but they are living outside of realspace so it is possible the nids come in, completely pass through the galaxy and then leave.

It's quite likely there are no galaxies in the local cluster to flee to. It's quite likely that both the Triangulum and Andromeda galaxies as well as their satellites are all stripped bare.

Or that there is something there the Tyranids fleed from.

There really aren't any winners in this universe.

Methodically stripping a galaxy of everything even remotely usable isn't the hallmark of something cutting and running.

And the Hive Mind doesn't actually seem to grasp the concept of fear.

It may academically know it, but it seems incapable of ever actually feeling it.

Of course, there are other extragalactic intruders in the background like the Slaugth. But I'd rather not sit down and ask Space Kyuss if there's any new place to call home.

**ferret61**

The nids cant win. Their not attracted to the empy and his physic beacon of grimdark. Their fleeing our galaxy to escape Chuck Norris. What the nids don't know though is that Chuck is actually leading them into an ambush by the hands of Sly Marbo. The nids will clearly be pwnd by the combined forces of the two badasses.

On a serious note though, chaos is probably the biggest threat to the nids. Though the IOM and necrons and orks could die kicking and screaming to the bitter end. Not sure if the gods would care too much though if the galaxy was consumed. Plenty more universes to torment. (Hey that that world full of Germans sporting over-sized mustaches, hippies and small alcohol fueled midgets looks fun)

**Selym**

Horus654 wrote:
I can't get behind this idea however, the math just doesn't add up. The best metaphor for my reasoning I can think of, without trying to apply actual math to 40k ( a futile exercise if there ever was one), is that of humans on earth. We dominate the earth with our presence, but we weigh only a fraction of the total weight of all the organic material on the earth (422.5 bn kilograms of humans vs 1400000 bn kilograms of ocean alone!). If the Earth's organic matter were converted into Tyranids we would be completely fethed, and the same should apply on a galactic scale. It doesn't matter that orks are the most populous species in the galaxy, or that the imperial gaurd is made up of untold trillions, they are still only going to be a very small fraction of the total mass of all organic matter in the galaxy, and that is what the Tyranids are. They are the vast majority of all the organic matter from at least 1 (but likely far more) other galaxy given life, devastating weaponry and a singular mind, will and purpose. Even if every atom of organic matter in the milky way was to stand unified against the oncoming hive fleet, we would very likely still be outnumbered.

This brings us to my theory, which is that Chaos Undivided presents the only force in the galaxy with a chance in hell to deter the coming Great Devourer, and that they will almost certainly act to try save the galaxy from being eaten.

This isn't quite correct. During the process of life biomatter becomes converted into energy, which can be lost in many ways. An example of this is heat energy. Biomatter will continue to suffer entropy when the nids try to take possession of it, so really the idea of 1 unit of biomass = 1 unit of nid is not strictly true.

Futhermore, there are many ways in which biomass can be permanently disposed of. De-atomizing the nids with something like a nova cannon can take a good chunk of biomass out of the equation.
The IOM's WMD's run on energy, the nid's weapons run on energy + physical version of energy (matter).

Just correcting any missed points before we go on.

Happyjew wrote:Chaos Undivided? Hah! As the Tyranids devour the galaxy there will be fewer and fewer beings to worship the Dark Ones. Orks will not win, but they will survive. Only because some were smart enough to leave the galaxy. Unintentionally.

Worship alone is not enough to sate the gods. The regular goings-on of the material universe and the warp are, however. While things still happen in the universe, the warp can feed off of it.

The lights may be off, but someone is very much still at home.

**Exergy**

ferret61 wrote:

On a serious note though, chaos is probably the biggest threat to the nids. Though the IOM and necrons and orks could die kicking and screaming to the bitter end. Not sure if the gods would care too much though if the galaxy was consumed. Plenty more universes to torment. (Hey that that world full of Germans sporting over-sized mustaches, hippies and small alcohol fueled midgets looks fun)

Daemons are definitly the biggest threat. Think about The Matrix. Nids fight in a battle based on certain assumptions. Assumptions that the rules of the universe will remain in effect. Math, Physics, Chemistry, and Biology are all based on rules. The eye of terror, the warp, and Daemons in general are cases of the rules not applying anymore.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Selym wrote:
Horus654 wrote:
I can't get behind this idea however, the math just doesn't add up. The best metaphor for my reasoning I can think of, without trying to apply actual math to 40k ( a futile exercise if there ever was one), is that of humans on earth. We dominate the earth with our presence, but we weigh only a fraction of the total weight of all the organic material on the earth (422.5 bn kilograms of humans vs 1400000 bn kilograms of ocean alone!). If the Earth's organic matter were converted into Tyranids we would be completely fethed, and the same should apply on a galactic scale. It doesn't matter that orks are the most populous species in the galaxy, or that the imperial gaurd is made up of untold trillions, they are still only going to be a very small fraction of the total mass of all organic matter in the galaxy, and that is what the Tyranids are. They are the vast majority of all the organic matter from at least 1 (but likely far more) other galaxy given life, devastating weaponry and a singular mind, will and purpose. Even if every atom of organic matter in the milky way was to stand unified against the oncoming hive fleet, we would very likely still be outnumbered.

This isn't quite correct. During the process of life biomatter becomes converted into energy, which can be lost in many ways. An example of this is heat energy. Biomatter will continue to suffer entropy when the nids try to take possession of it, so really the idea of 1 unit of biomass = 1 unit of nid is not strictly true.

Futhermore, there are many ways in which biomass can be permanently disposed of. De-atomizing the nids with something like a nova cannon can take a good chunk of biomass out of the equation.
The IOM's WMD's run on energy, the nid's weapons run on energy + physical version of energy (matter).

Just correcting any missed points before we go on.

GW has some serious issues with the term BIOMATTER. What is biomatter? Iron shows up in animals blood? Is it bio matter? Earth's life is mostly water, but water is not organic nor is it all that unique. Oxegen and Hydrogen are pretty common in stars, so if the nids quest for water why didnt they consume the stars of their old galaxy. Further with nuclear fission and fusion any matter can be transmuted into any other type of matter. Energy can also be exchanged into matter.

If we are talking about Organic Matter, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_matter well that is actually a very small portion of the matter on the surface of the earth, a rather lush planet. What's more, while humans cannot create organic matter, most plants can. So are we to assume that nids cannot create organic matter?

Biomass on the other hand is merely an energy container. The amount of nuclear energy on earth far exceeds all biomass energy cooped up on earth even accounting for all known fossil fuels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass

**Selym**

Exergy wrote:
ferret61 wrote:

On a serious note though, chaos is probably the biggest threat to the nids. Though the IOM and necrons and orks could die kicking and screaming to the bitter end. Not sure if the gods would care too much though if the galaxy was consumed. Plenty more universes to torment. (Hey that that world full of Germans sporting over-sized mustaches, hippies and small alcohol fueled midgets looks fun)

Daemons are definitly the biggest threat. Think about The Matrix. Nids fight in a battle based on certain assumptions. Assumptions that the rules of the universe will remain in effect. Math, Physics, Chemistry, and Biology are all based on rules. The eye of terror, the warp, and Daemons in general are cases of the rules not applying anymore.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Selym wrote:
Horus654 wrote:
I can't get behind this idea however, the math just doesn't add up. The best metaphor for my reasoning I can think of, without trying to apply actual math to 40k ( a futile exercise if there ever was one), is that of humans on earth. We dominate the earth with our presence, but we weigh only a fraction of the total weight of all the organic material on the earth (422.5 bn kilograms of humans vs 1400000 bn kilograms of ocean alone!). If the Earth's organic matter were converted into Tyranids we would be completely fethed, and the same should apply on a galactic scale. It doesn't matter that orks are the most populous species in the galaxy, or that the imperial gaurd is made up of untold trillions, they are still only going to be a very small fraction of the total mass of all organic matter in the galaxy, and that is what the Tyranids are. They are the vast majority of all the organic matter from at least 1 (but likely far more) other galaxy given life, devastating weaponry and a singular mind, will and purpose. Even if every atom of organic matter in the milky way was to stand unified against the oncoming hive fleet, we would very likely still be outnumbered.

This isn't quite correct. During the process of life biomatter becomes converted into energy, which can be lost in many ways. An example of this is heat energy. Biomatter will continue to suffer entropy when the nids try to take possession of it, so really the idea of 1 unit of biomass = 1 unit of nid is not strictly true.

Futhermore, there are many ways in which biomass can be permanently disposed of. De-atomizing the nids with something like a nova cannon can take a good chunk of biomass out of the equation.
The IOM's WMD's run on energy, the nid's weapons run on energy + physical version of energy (matter).

Just correcting any missed points before we go on.

GW has some serious issues with the term BIOMATTER. What is biomatter? Iron shows up in animals blood? Is it bio matter? Earth's life is mostly water, but water is not organic nor is it all that unique. Oxegen and Hydrogen are pretty common in stars, so if the nids quest for water why didnt they consume the stars of their old galaxy. Further with nuclear fission and fusion any matter can be transmuted into any other type of matter. Energy can also be exchanged into matter.

If we are talking about Organic Matter, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_matter well that is actually a very small portion of the matter on the surface of the earth, a rather lush planet. What's more, while humans cannot create organic matter, most plants can. So are we to assume that nids cannot create organic matter?

Biomass on the other hand is merely an energy container. The amount of nuclear energy on earth far exceeds all biomass energy cooped up on earth even accounting for all known fossil fuels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass

Good point. I choose to go with the definition of "can be reconstructed into a nid", and not pure energy. Or irradiated materials.

Your definitions may vary.

**Exergy**

Selym wrote:

Good point. I choose to go with the definition of "can be reconstructed into a nid", and not pure energy. Or irradiated materials.

Your definitions may vary.

Generally, organic matter, in terms of weight, is:[3]
45-55% carbon
35-45% oxygen
3-5% hydrogen
1-4% nitrogen

Assuming nids could grow ammino acids and protiens then without nuclear rearranging nids would be carbon limited. Carbon is less than 1% of the earths surface and crust. The vast majority of it is oxygen and silicon. The solar system on the other hand is about 10% oxygen but 4% Carbon.

If they need carbon you could pretty easily throw robots at them and they chouldnt use the scrap for much of anything.

**Selym**

Exergy wrote:
Selym wrote:

Good point. I choose to go with the definition of "can be reconstructed into a nid", and not pure energy. Or irradiated materials.

Your definitions may vary.

Generally, organic matter, in terms of weight, is:[3]
45-55% carbon
35-45% oxygen
3-5% hydrogen
1-4% nitrogen

Assuming nids could grow ammino acids and protiens then without nuclear rearranging nids would be carbon limited. Carbon is less than 1% of the earths surface and crust. The vast majority of it is oxygen and silicon. The solar system on the other hand is about 10% oxygen but 4% Carbon.

If they need carbon you could pretty easily throw robots at them and they chouldnt use the scrap for much of anything.

And thusly, our best hope of survival comes from the necrons and daemons

**Exergy**

Selym wrote:
Exergy wrote:
Selym wrote:

Good point. I choose to go with the definition of "can be reconstructed into a nid", and not pure energy. Or irradiated materials.

Your definitions may vary.

Generally, organic matter, in terms of weight, is:[3]
45-55% carbon
35-45% oxygen
3-5% hydrogen
1-4% nitrogen

Assuming nids could grow ammino acids and protiens then without nuclear rearranging nids would be carbon limited. Carbon is less than 1% of the earths surface and crust. The vast majority of it is oxygen and silicon. The solar system on the other hand is about 10% oxygen but 4% Carbon.

If they need carbon you could pretty easily throw robots at them and they chouldnt use the scrap for much of anything.

And thusly, our best hope of survival comes from the necrons and daemons

and the AdMech...

The Legio Cybernetica and the College Titanica dont have much other than metal.