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Sisters are BS4, Ld8, with Bolter and Power Armour. In 40K that's elite. And yes, most of the armies in the game are 'elite armies' so it makes sisters feel less fancy in the actual game, but that's how it is.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
C:WH is where you should be looking for the old version of the Arco.

Yeah, that's precisely what I was comparing : Damien 1427 vs C:WH arcoflagellant. One of them will be completely destroyed if Artemis glance in his general direction, the other one is worth many marines in close combat.
Same thing for Severina and Sevora Devout vs C:WH Death Cult Assassins.
If you don't see that, your are either deaf, blind and stupid, or you have never looked at the Inquisitor the game profile and won't admit it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Just because you see Botlers a lot doesn't make them the wide spread available option in the setting so it's still "elite".

It is. But it doesn't feel elite. At all. And that's why they artificially upped the arcoflagellant, because how it feels matters a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, let me give extend my Inquisitor/C:WH exemples :

Inquisitor :
Death Custist is WS85 BS60 S65 T60 I90
Arcoflagellant is WS60 BS20 S80 T80 I50
Space marine is WS75 BS75 S200 T150 I85

C:WH :
Death cultist is WS5 BS4 S4 T3 W2 I5 A2 and a 5++ from their innate abilities
Arcoflagellant is WS4 BS0 S4 T5 WI I4 A1d6 and a 4++ from their innate abilities
Marine is WS4 BS4 S4 T4 WI I4 A1

See how the arcoflagellant went from having just slightly more than half of the marine toughness to having one more point of toughness AND a 4++? And that came WITHOUT A SINGLE CHANGE IN THE FLUFF AS JUSTIFICATION.
Why did they do that ? Because they wanted the arcoflagellant to feel in game like it did in the fluff : some man transformed into a killing machine that is very powerful but totally oblivious of its own security once unleashed. For that, they had to match his abilities against those of the standard enemies it will be facing. That required to change a lot from Inquisitors skirmishes to 40k large-scale battles.
It's pretty easy to do the same with Sisters : you give them lots of special wargear, small stuff with quite big game effect, and especially you get awesome wargear for the elite part of the armies, mostly the Canoness and the Celestians, and there, your army looks elite and wealthy again. Just like the huge buff the eviscerator got when it entered 40k.


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http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480007a&categoryId=6700005a§ion=&aId=21500020a
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1050291a_Codex__Witch_Hunters
For reference, in case you don't trust my numbers.

I'm just going to have to disagree with you HSoO, I think this is more in your head than it is real.

Also, Inquisitor is a roleplay system with a different approach to the stats then when compared to the table top. Seriously, just let it go. We're not going to get superbolters just to make you happy.

Okay then, keep going feeling like your Canoness with power armor, chainsword and boltgun has the very best wargear available to the most powerful and richest organization in the setting.
But don't pretend the number I posted are in my head. They are not. They are in the official PDF from the official GW website.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Okay then, keep going feeling like your Canoness with power armor, chainsword and boltgun has the very best wargear available to the most powerful and richest organization in the setting.
But don't pretend the number I posted are in my head. They are not. They are in the official PDF from the official GW website.

The numbers aren't but the "feelings" you have about how elite or not elite something is are. Seriously, we're not going to get some kind of magical booster just to match your "feelings" of how elite you think we should be on the table.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Also, Inquisitor is a roleplay system with a different approach to the stats then when compared to the table top.

Different approach means “This characteristic which is incredibly lower on that guy in this game is going to be incredibly higher on the other game” ?
lol.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Okay then, keep going feeling like your Canoness with power armor, chainsword and boltgun has the very best wargear available to the most powerful and richest organization in the setting.

And that's why she can have a rosarius, inferno pistol and a fancy relic sword, if you like. Feeling better?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The numbers aren't but the "feelings" you have about how elite or not elite something is are.

Oh, but the comparison to the other armies are not, right ? So, if I say that every other army bar Imperial Guard has access to way better wargear for their HQ than we do for the Canoness, it's completely objective, ain't it ?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Seriously, we're not going to get some kind of magical booster just to match your "feelings" of how elite you think we should be on the table.

Yeah, I noticed that with this release, but thank you for pointing it out. Did you get what you wanted from that release ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
And that's why she can have a rosarius, inferno pistol and a fancy relic sword, if you like. Feeling better?

Can I get an artificer armor, or a jump pack, or is my relic sword AP2 ?
Please remind me, what's the equipment of my most elite unit, the Celestians ? Power armor and bolters ?

Wwbushidow wrote:

Priests are leaders whose Ld(7) is less that a normal troop(8), and they get War Hymns that they test off their Ld? Why?

No Skyfire? Why?

Eviscerator 30 points that only a Cannoness or a Priest (WS 3) can use. Why?

Also no flyer and no assault vehicle. WHY?

I can answer some of these.

I sent a 30 page breakdown and suggestions booklet to Cruddace explaining the things I perceive as problems with the WD, if he took any of it into consideration I have no idea but some of the suggestions I made are in the new codex but that doesn't mean he even bothered to read the thing I sent him. I did get a reply from him in the form of a written letter but that still doesn't mean he actually read the thing.

The Faith system in the WD was 5+ with +1 bonus for having a VSS and +1 if you had taken casualties. This means the test was always done on 4+ (3+ if you had lost a model and VSS was still alive). A 4+ is a 50% chance of success. I suggested the system be changed to a Ld test because all other armies in the game use Ld for their abilities and it's less confusing/clunky to figure out. (IG Orders, Psychic powers etc).
A 2D6 Ld test has similar chances of success compared to the old D6 system.
4+ 50%
3+ 66,7%

7 or less on 2D6 58,3%
8 or less on 2D6 72,2%
9 or less on 2D6 83,3%
10 or less on 2D6 91,7%

It is likely that the same system form AoF and Hymns would have been the same, and using the WD system it would have been on a 4+ or 3+. I asked earlier if you use the Priest Ld for the test if he is in a unit and was told you use the units. If this is correct than you will always test on a min of 8 if he is with Sisters which is a 72,2% success rate which is allot better than it would have been using the old WD system.

I think this is balanced (though I think the Hymns are ALLOT better than AoF) and allot better than the old WD D6 system.


No skyfire means they probably have some new kit they want to sell that is designed for that job, Retributors and Exorcists are probably not meant for the job. Dominions have a really good chance to destroy a filer if they use their AoF but they just need to hit.


Eviscerators is a rather obvious one yet confusing at the same time, I suggested they be dropped to 15pts as that's what they cost in the IG and GK codex. A Powerfist is 25pts so an Eviscerators Armourbane should be worth the extra 5pts right? Problem is the wielder will be S6 Ap2 Armourbane instead of S8 Ap2. This means they are better at destroying armour than powerfists even at S6. Priests on the other hand can smash, giving them a S10 Ap2 Armourbane attack.
I believe they cost 30 points because of this, because as powerfists cost 25 they have to be more expensive (didn't take sisters S3 into consideration) and that priests can use them at S10 Ap2.
This does mean a Canoness is completely useless as she brings nothing to the table a Priest can't do, she brings Stubborn and Hatred AoF, a Priest gives the unit permanent Fearless and Hatred and for allot cheaper.


No flyer is obvious, why would they release a single plastic model for this WD release? This isn't the relaunch of the Sisters so it would bring about more anger than anything if all we got as a flyer kit.
GW probably wants to do a Dark Eldar type deal with Sisters, completely redo everything over a 2 month release schedule. There are already 2 FW fliers the Sisters can use (Avenger and the Arvus Lighter).
Sure they are more expensive (and the Arvus is more of an insult than anything) but they are options available right now.
No assault vehicle just means they didn't want to make the Rhino chassis into assault vehicles, this could mean that if Sisters get a flier it will be an assault vehicle or that they dont want Sisters to have assault vehicles at all.

These are just my own speculations so feel free to ignore

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The numbers aren't but the "feelings" you have about how elite or not elite something is are.

Oh, but the comparison to the other armies are not, right ? So, if I say that every other army bar Imperial Guard has access to way better wargear for their HQ than we do for the Canoness, it's completely objective, ain't it ?

You mean the Power Fists or the Sniper rifles they can take?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Seriously, we're not going to get some kind of magical booster just to match your "feelings" of how elite you think we should be on the table.

Yeah, I noticed that with this release, but thank you for pointing it out. Did you get what you wanted from that release ?

They didn't increase the points cost on the Exorcist and they made it so Celestine isn't an auto-include without really ruining her (now I don't have to hear bitching when I take her). So yes. Yes I did.

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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
And that's why she can have a rosarius, inferno pistol and a fancy relic sword, if you like. Feeling better?

Can I get an artificer armor, or a jump pack, or is my relic sword AP2 ?
Please remind me, what's the equipment of my most elite unit, the Celestians ? Power armor and bolters ?

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
I did get a reply from him in the form of a written letter but that still doesn't mean he actually read the thing.

What'd it say, just out of interest?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You mean the Power Fists or the Sniper rifles they can take?

Name an army other from IG. Then let's just try to build a character from this book that will be able to utterly destroy a Canoness.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So yes. Yes I did.

Good for you !

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Not even the Marines have an AP2 Relic Blade, theirs is AP3 as well.

Yes. The only difference is that on one hand we have a character which ends up with 4 HP, T5, a 2+ and a 3++, that will do 5 S6 AP3 attacks on the charge, and on the other hand we have, well, a Canoness that will instant die from said character.
See the difference now ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Can I get an artificer armor, or a jump pack, or is my relic sword AP2 ?

No. Still better than the chainsword you suggested, though. And I actually agree with you that Canoness is still lacklustre, though it's not because availibility of the gear, but because of the price of the items. 30p for Eviscerator on S3 model is ludicrous, for example. Oh, and her Act of Faith is useless. It's still like it used to be: if you want the command squad, you can take cheap canoness with little or not upgrades, if you want wharacter that can actually kill things you take Celestine. That disparity was lessened by Celestine nerf, but it's still there.

Please remind me, what's the equipment of my most elite unit, the Celestians ? Power armor and bolters ?

Yep. Celestians do suck, but that's because they're a CC unit without CC weapons. They should have given them an access to melee armoury or at least an option to swap bolters to chainswords.

You can have a box of tissues. Not even the Marines have an AP2 Relic Blade, theirs is AP3 as well.

Except that the Relic Blade is something more common than what can be expected for the sisters, while the "Relic Sword" is an Artifact which means its very, very rare.

Now if you were to compare it to something like say...The Space Marines Chapter Relics, like say...The Teeth of Terra, which is +2S, AP3, Rampage with Strikedown for only 5 points more...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You mean the Power Fists or the Sniper rifles they can take?

Name an army other from IG. Then let's just try to build a character from this book that will be able to utterly destroy a Canoness.

Congrats, you can build a CC monster with books that have the model support to actually let you build said CC monster. Seriously now, stop being so bitter about this, we all knew this wasn't going to fix everything and if you really did your disappointment is your fault not GW's.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So yes. Yes I did.

Good for you !

Thanks. I attribute it to "realistic expectations".

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Not even the Marines have an AP2 Relic Blade, theirs is AP3 as well.

Yes. The only difference is that on one hand we have a character which ends up with 4 HP, T5, a 2+ and a 3++, that will do 5 S6 AP3 attacks on the charge, and on the other hand we have, well, a Canoness that will instant die from said character.
See the difference now ?

I do hope that when sisters comes around, they get all sorts of blessed weaponry, saint bones (not the big types, but little finger bones in those special pouches), flaming weapons like that awesome torch-maul thing (Why was it removed! That thing was awesome)

Though I'd love to see alotta of the stuff from FFG's RPG books for them, they had some sweet relics for those of the Holy Church of the Emporer.

 Crimson wrote:
And I actually agree with you that Canoness is still lacklustre

Good for you that you noticed !

 Crimson wrote:
if you want wharacter that can actually kill things you take Celestine.

Well, things without 2+ save then. And not vehicles. And without AP2, or S6. Not much, right ?

 Crimson wrote:
Celestians do suck, but that's because they're a CC unit without CC weapons.

Where exactly in their fluff does it says they are a CC unit ? I just checked, they are only described as elite. Yes, their rules have designed them for CC in the last three dex, but that was never explicitly told in the fluff, and they never were given CC weapons, so I say just give them good wargear (if blood angel can get whole units in artificer armor, why not sisters too ?) and be done with it !

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Yes. The only difference is that on one hand we have a character which ends up with 4 HP, T5, a 2+ and a 3++, that will do 5 S6 AP3 attacks on the charge, and on the other hand we have, well, a Canoness that will instant die from said character.
See the difference now ?

Yes, and that's why AS relic blade should cost less than it does. But you are basically complaining that Space Marine characters are better in CC than a Canoness. This is hardly surprising, and if it would be other way around, GW would have completely failed to represent the fluff in the rules. Problem with Canoness is not that she's worse in CC than a SM Captain; problem is that she doesn't bring anything that other choices in the book wouldn't do better (ie. priests buff better than her and Celestine is better at CC.)

 Crimson wrote:
but that's because they're a CC unit without CC weapons.

The Command Squad gets them, at least. All five Celestians in there can get power weapons, which is pretty cool. But yeah, really wish they'd done the same or a similar thing for regular Celestians. Really wanted to field some.

 Crimson wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Yes. The only difference is that on one hand we have a character which ends up with 4 HP, T5, a 2+ and a 3++, that will do 5 S6 AP3 attacks on the charge, and on the other hand we have, well, a Canoness that will instant die from said character.
See the difference now ?

Yes, and that's why AS relic blade should cost less than it does. But you are basically complaining that Space Marine characters are better in CC than a Canoness. This is hardly surprising, and if it would be other way around, GW would have completely failed to represent the fluff in the rules. Problem with Canoness is not that she's worse in CC than a SM Captain; problem is that she doesn't bring anything that other choices in the book wouldn't do better (ie. priests buff better than her and Celestine is better at CC.)

I agree that this is the real issue with the Canoness, not what the other books have, but rather her role in the army. She's gotten -better- but she's still not really working as a real option in the codex yet.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Congrats, you can build a CC monster with books that have the model support to actually let you build said CC monster.

I can build something that will kill the canoness with the Tau book, if it pleases you.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Mantle of Ophelia.

Which prevent us from taking any other relic. So, we are not getting this rerollable 4+. I'm pretty sure that means the canoness is going to die, likely before being able to do any damage.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Also the points cost difference between the two, one of those is really expensive, the other is a Canoness.

Yep. Precisely my point. The Ecclesiarchy is supposed to have a lot of relics everywhere, and a LOT of resources and influence to get rare and powerful wargear. Seems like it's not reflected on the tabletop. But you and other really wanted to disprove that by mentioning how Sisters got… bolters ! Shock and awe !

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You're right, the sword is lackluster and I agree, but I feel that this comes from the lack of model options more than anything.

Do you mean you can model a sword with lackluster rules, but you can't manage to model a sword with powerful rules ? Interesting. I'm perfectly able to model a winged sister with a very very very powerful lance. I've already done it already. Please give me rules for a very very very powerful lance. And keep in mind, I modeled it as very very very powerful, no less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
But you are basically complaining that Space Marine characters are better in CC than a Canoness.This is hardly surprising, and if it would be other way around, GW would have completely failed to represent the fluff in the rules.

Actually, I'm complaining a Space Marine character have access to so much more, and so much better wargear than a Canoness, which is NOT representing the fluff. Also, I mentioned Space Marine, but you could do the same with Tau, Orks, Eldars, Dark Eldars, …

 ClockworkZion wrote:
At least it's not two-handed like an actual Relic Blade is.

True, so you get an extra attack. It's also master crafted. Not too shabby weapon actually. But once you give Canoness that and a rosarius she is already 110 points, so you might as well pay those 25 extra points for Celestine to get :+2 to WS and BS, +3 to initiative, +1 attack, the resurrection, 2+ save, fearless, hit & run, jump pack and a heavy flamer... Now that is 25 points well spent, I think!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Congrats, you can build a CC monster with books that have the model support to actually let you build said CC monster.

I can build something that will kill the canoness with the Tau book, if it pleases you.

Can you do it without a Crisis Suit? Doubtful.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Mantle of Ophelia.

Which prevent us from taking any other relic. So, we are not getting this rerollable 4+. I'm pretty sure that means the canoness is going to die, likely before being able to do any damage.

You're not getting a rerollbale 4+ anyways. The Cloak only works on Armor and Shield of Faith saves.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Also the points cost difference between the two, one of those is really expensive, the other is a Canoness.

Yep. Precisely my point. The Ecclesiarchy is supposed to have a lot of relics everywhere, and a LOT of resources and influence to get rare and powerful wargear. Seems like it's not reflected on the tabletop. But you and other really wanted to disprove that by mentioning how Sisters got… bolters ! Shock and awe !

Points cost is your point? Seriously? I'm not even sure what you're on at this point but it's not Earth. You brought up a more expensive option, I pointed out that he pays for all that and you say that's your point. Seriously, what.

Just because something can do something else better than we can doesn't make us bad. It doesn't even make us bad that Bolters are our mainstay weapon. For every 6 Tactical Marines someone brings to the table we've got 7 models that shoot just as well. The bolter isn't even a bad standard weapon to have. S4, AP5 means it wounds most other infantry on a 4 or less and ignores the armor of a number of other troops in the game. You're just stuck on this idea that we need super special equipment to feel more super special awesome. By that note all Marines need AP2 Bolters with Rending because of how awesome they are.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You're right, the sword is lackluster and I agree, but I feel that this comes from the lack of model options more than anything.

Do you mean you can model a sword with lackluster rules, but you can't manage to model a sword with powerful rules ? Interesting. I'm perfectly able to model a winged sister with a very very very powerful lance. I've already done it already. Please give me rules for a very very very powerful lance. And keep in mind, I modeled it as very very very powerful, no less.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Can you do it without a Crisis Suit? Doubtful.

Ain't the commander in a Crisis suit by default ?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Points cost is your point?

Not being able to take a lot of cool relics and wargear that would make my point cost and power go up is my point. It just doesn't feel to me like a Canoness can be a respected and powerful leader inside one of the most powerful organizations, if not the single most powerful, of the Imperium. Does it feel like that to you, because she can take that crappy sword ?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Just because something can do something else better than we can doesn't make us bad. It doesn't even make us bad that Bolters are our mainstay weapon.

Bolters for basic Sisters is perfectly okay. Plain bolters and plain power armor for our “elite” (and really, elite rather than close combat, they have always been “elite battle sisters” rather than “sisters that decide they want to hit things with pointy stuff rather than shoot at things”) troops, not so much.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
By that note all Marines need AP2 Bolters with Rending because of how awesome they are.

Funny you mention that, because every marine flavour has its own elite unit with special wargear. Oh, except those that have two or three of these elite units with special wargear.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I was saying the sword is pants, but I can also understand why we didn't get a lot of other weapon options all things considered.

I seriously disagree, weapon swapping isn't that hard. Even I was able to do it without any difficulty.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Can you do it without a Crisis Suit? Doubtful.

Ain't the commander in a Crisis suit by default ?

I don't know, I do know that the Crisis Suit has that a weapon option that makes it decent in a challenge though. Besides if you want to compare likes, the Canoness would be fighting an Ethereal.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Points cost is your point?

Not being able to take a lot of cool relics and wargear that would make my point cost and power go up is my point. It just doesn't feel to me like a Canoness can be a respected and powerful leader inside one of the most powerful organizations, if not the single most powerful, of the Imperium. Does it feel like that to you, because she can take that crappy sword ?

No, but I never confuse wargear with what the model is either.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Just because something can do something else better than we can doesn't make us bad. It doesn't even make us bad that Bolters are our mainstay weapon.

Bolters for basic Sisters is perfectly okay. Plain bolters and plain power armor for our “elite” (and really, elite rather than close combat, they have always been “elite battle sisters” rather than “sisters that decide they want to hit things with pointy stuff rather than shoot at things”) troops, not so much.

You do know that even Veteran Marines wear normal Power Armor too, right? I mean even the Captain comes with basic Power Armor and has to pay for Artificer Armor.

Sternguard don't even use special bolters, just special ammo. And no, we don't need that special ammo to be "elite" either.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
By that note all Marines need AP2 Bolters with Rending because of how awesome they are.

Funny you mention that, because every marine flavour has its own elite unit with special wargear. Oh, except those that have two or three of these elite units with special wargear.

Odd, Vanguard Vets don't have any unique wargear that can't be found in the rest of the book in the codex I've read. And even Terminators use standard weapons, they just have Terminator Armor to stack on it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I was saying the sword is pants, but I can also understand why we didn't get a lot of other weapon options all things considered.

I seriously disagree, weapon swapping isn't that hard. Even I was able to do it without any difficulty.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't know, I do know that the Crisis Suit has that a weapon option that makes it decent in a challenge though.

So, then you have it. It kills a Canoness. Which codex do you want to do next ?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Not being able to take a lot of cool relics and wargear that would make my point cost and power go up is my point. It just doesn't feel to me like a Canoness can be a respected and powerful leader inside one of the most powerful organizations, if not the single most powerful, of the Imperium. Does it feel like that to you, because she can take that crappy sword ?

No, but I never confuse wargear with what the model is either.

So you do too find that the current list doesn't make you feel like the Canoness and the Celestians are respected and deeply honored member of one of the most powerful organizations. Good. Then why are you arguing otherwise ? That was my point from the start !

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You do know that even Veteran Marines wear normal Power Armor too, right?

Yes, but they have bolters with special ammunitions, and everyone of them can take special weapons or combi-bolters, AND they are not from a faction for which the fluff have always emphasized on RICHES and RELICS, are they ?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I mean even the Captain comes with basic Power Armor and has to pay for Artificer Armor.

I'm not arguing for an obligation to take a lot of powerful wargear, I'm arguing for a possibility to take it. If you want to play a minor Order from a very remote place with few access to shiner wargear, it's a good and fluffy choice. If you don't want wargear because you want to outnumber your opponent, it's a good gamemplay choice. Doesn't mean that taking a lot of wargear for fluff or gameplay reason is a bad choice though.
Last time I checked, we weren't given that option.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Odd, Vanguard Vets don't have any unique wargear that can't be found in the rest of the book in the codex I've read.

I said special, not unique. You should have noticed when you read I proposed to give Celestians artificer armor and stormbolters, which are certainly not unique, but apparently you didn't.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And even Terminators use standard weapons, they just have Terminator Armor to stack on it.

Yes, it's true that terminators and celestians really show how marines and sisters are on a equal footing when it comes to access to powerful and rare wargear .

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Right, but thanks to CHS no model means not in the book.

It's not a model ! It's a weapon ! There isn't even a farseer on jetbike model, that didn't prevent them from adding the option to the codex, which is recent enough. So how can you argue the lack of a model for a relic was the problem when the lack of a model for a jetbike option was not ?

I think now you are just trying to contradict me no matter what I say.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't know, I do know that the Crisis Suit has that a weapon option that makes it decent in a challenge though.

So, then you have it. It kills a Canoness.

It's not that easy. I assume Onager Gauntlet is the item we're talking about. It allows the commander to substitute his attacks for one S10 AP1 attack. He has to hit with his WS4, wound (the easy part) and the Canoness has to fail her rosarius save.So that's about 20% chance to kill the Canoness per CC phase. And of course if Canoness has EW cloak, the Commander has to do that tree times; she has plenty of time to pummel the filthy xeno to death.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't know, I do know that the Crisis Suit has that a weapon option that makes it decent in a challenge though.

So, then you have it. It kills a Canoness. Which codex do you want to do next ?

I said "decent" not "it automatically wins everything". And no, I'm not playing this pity party game with you.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Not being able to take a lot of cool relics and wargear that would make my point cost and power go up is my point. It just doesn't feel to me like a Canoness can be a respected and powerful leader inside one of the most powerful organizations, if not the single most powerful, of the Imperium. Does it feel like that to you, because she can take that crappy sword ?

No, but I never confuse wargear with what the model is either.

So you do too find that the current list doesn't make you feel like the Canoness and the Celestians are respected and deeply honored member of one of the most powerful organizations. Good. Then why are you arguing otherwise ? That was my point from the start !

Your "point" has been "I don't think we feel elite enough and I'm going to disregard what everyone else says to the contrary because how I feel about the models on the table overrules all fluff".

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You do know that even Veteran Marines wear normal Power Armor too, right?

Yes, but they have bolters with special ammunitions, and everyone of them can take special weapons or combi-bolters, AND they are not from a faction for which the fluff have always emphasized on RICHES and RELICS, are they ?

You're still looking at the Special Ammo which I mentioned we didn't need. And it's TWO Sternguard can take special weapons not ALL Sternguard.

And you're whining is starting to attract dogs. You're bitching that an army which has more codex support and more model support gets stuff that feels more special. I have have no idea how that could ever happen.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I mean even the Captain comes with basic Power Armor and has to pay for Artificer Armor.

I'm not arguing for an obligation to take a lot of powerful wargear, I'm arguing for a possibility to take it. If you want to play a minor Order from a very remote place with few access to shiner wargear, it's a good and fluffy choice. If you don't want wargear because you want to outnumber your opponent, it's a good gamemplay choice. Doesn't mean that taking a lot of wargear for fluff or gameplay reason is a bad choice though.
Last time I checked, we weren't given that option.

Finally a little bit more sensible. It doesn't matter what you're arguing though as it doesn't change what we have.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Odd, Vanguard Vets don't have any unique wargear that can't be found in the rest of the book in the codex I've read.

I said special, not unique. You should have noticed when you read I proposed to give Celestians artificer armor and stormbolters, which are certainly not unique, but apparently you didn't.

Not even Salamanders, an army of Artificers, can put all their elites in Artificer Armor and they have more of it than any chapter. While I want Celestians to be good, I feel there are other ways to do it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And even Terminators use standard weapons, they just have Terminator Armor to stack on it.

Yes, it's true that terminators and celestians really show how marines and sisters are on a equal footing when it comes to access to powerful and rare wargear .

It was more to do with the weapon options and you know it. Quite pretending to be so thick. And if you're not pretending, try to be less thick.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Right, but thanks to CHS no model means not in the book.

It's not a model ! It's a weapon ! There isn't even a farseer on jetbike model, that didn't prevent them from adding the option to the codex, which is recent enough. So how can you argue the lack of a model for a relic was the problem when the lack of a model for a jetbike option was not ?

I think now you are just trying to contradict me no matter what I say.

Well, I'd need to book to look through all the option to give you a character that will be able to kill a Canoness, but I'm pretty sure it's possible. Especially since the Tau will have plenty of time to shoot the Canoness to death, with WAY superior range.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, I'd need to book to look through all the option to give you a character that will be able to kill a Canoness, but I'm pretty sure it's possible. Especially since the Tau will have plenty of time to shoot the Canoness to death, with WAY superior range.

Which is a different problem than "could totally take her in combat and win everytime" now isn't it? Stop moving the goal posts just so you can say "I'm right".