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The Dark angel legion when it returned to their home world was, at the least, 75% off-world recruits, no one but them knows what really happened, (hell only the inner circle knows most of that). whos to say that the "fallen" are not the real dark angels, that the dark angels now are not chaos hunting down the others, the only legions to change their color during the heresy were traitor legions.

this theory was presented to me, while I have lots of knowledge on DA, it is still limited compared to what is out there (haven't read many books on them yet, any books that talk about them if you could please tell me their names). wanted to see how this theory stands up against the collective, (if sometimes misguiding) knowledge of the forums.

If this was 1d4chan, most of what you said would be crossed out with some cover up.

I think that is just part of the Dark Angels mystery.

As a big Dark Angels fan, I really want to respond. Unfortunately, I couldn't really understand what you were trying to say.

the DA "chapter" we play is actually fluff wise a chaos faction, is what the man that presented the theory above was getting at.

raiden wrote:
the DA "chapter" we play is actually fluff wise a chaos faction, is what the man that presented the theory above was getting at.

Oh...

lol thats what I said, but its fun to think about, he had a valid (by 40k standards) arguement, only traitor legions changed there colors, most of the DA that "weren't" chaos were off world recruits, they don't tell anyone because they want no one to find out, if one of the "fallen" reveal it they will be found out as chaos. it can work. haha sorta

Well, for the sake of entertaining it - here goes:

While certainly grimdark enough for 40K, it simply doesn't make sense. Sure, one could argue that the current DA (Chaos) are hunting the Fallen (loyalists) to keep their secret. Makes some logical sense. At the same time, one would assume that the Fallen would have made that known by now. Not many have been caught in the last few millennia, noted by how rare the black pearls that Interrogator-Chaplains wear for making a captured fallen repent. Given that such a large part of the Legion "turned" and became fallen, at least one would have popped off about the Dark Angels actually being Chaos.

So, does it not stretch the admittedly massive bounds of reality in the 40K to universe to even entertain that as a possibility? I say yes.

The Dark Angels are noted as a noble chapter who have repeatedly done great things in the defence of the Imperium. It makes it rather unlikely that they are secretly working for chaos.

It's more likely that Lion El was willing to swap sides to chaos if Horus was victorious and the Fallen know about this, the DA obviously don't want that leaked out. At least that's my theory

2x210 wrote:
It's more likely that Lion El was willing to swap sides to chaos if Horus was victorious and the Fallen know about this, the DA obviously don't want that leaked out. At least that's my theory

That's a little better, but still lacks any basis. There is nothing to indicate that the Lion would have turned coat if Horus won.

 Flinty wrote:
The Dark Angels are noted as a noble chapter who have repeatedly done great things in the defence of the Imperium. It makes it rather unlikely that they are secretly working for chaos.

The Alpha Legion are a traitor legion who have repeatedly done terrible things in the name of Chaos, doesn't stop people thinking they're secretly working for the Imperium :-)

I do agree though, I do think he was 100% loyal, it's just his actions at the time of the Heresy (which were out of his control) and his suspicious nature will lead people to always doubt him, that's his curse I guess.

In a way, this theory makes sense, But it is very unlikely.

 Traejun wrote:

2x210 wrote:
It's more likely that Lion El was willing to swap sides to chaos if Horus was victorious and the Fallen know about this, the DA obviously don't want that leaked out. At least that's my theory

That's a little better, but still lacks any basis. There is nothing to indicate that the Lion would have turned coat if Horus won.

Angels of Darkness BL book with Astelan' interrogation does go into this.

so far everything we've seen in the HH series suggests the Lion is loyal

I guess it's how you read the HH to what you think of the Lion, mine is he's calculating and waiting for the tipping point to throw in his lot with the winner.

Unrembered empire puts the lion as a traitor to sleep, go read it

Yeah, thanks for the spoiler tag for all those people who haven't read it. What's your next book your getting so I can return the favour.

2x210 wrote:
It's more likely that Lion El was willing to swap sides to chaos if Horus was victorious and the Fallen know about this, the DA obviously don't want that leaked out. At least that's my theory

I really like this theory and there are some fluff snippets that point to that direction. At least I have vague recollection of such from the last time we had this thread...

In their defence, i dont think its really that much of a spoiler. (Havent read the books myself).

Its kinda like seeing Sean Bean in a movie. People says he dies in the movie, and I just go "So what? That happens everytime".

the man says the book totally rules out the Lion being a traitor, that's pretty major, and what the feth are you on about . It's not the same thing at all. That gak needed spoiler tags as I said.

The way i see it, the lion is loyal enough as it is. A spoiler would have been someone saying he wasnt loyal at all and was planning to backstab the emperor.

But i will admit that some people would like to find out these details themselves. Sorry about that. Trying to make light of the situation since it's too late to unread that detail now.

There chaos why can't people see that

unfortunately my names not J, and I don't have a denurealizer to flash the memory away and replace it with something like this.

Look directly here please, sir.

*flash*

There is no book called unremembered empire, nor is there any thread on dakka discussing it in any detail.
When you read that infomation that you did not read, what you were really doing was practicing your hula dance in front of the T.V.
You were quite good at it, but you still think you need a couple more lessons before you book that flight to the paradice iles of the 50th state.

*begins to blink*

Thank you for your cooperation in our questionaire sir, have a nice day.

A great theory by the OP and some others in this discussion. One thing to point out though, on top of what others have already said, is that some Fallen have become leaders of worlds and have led open revolts against the Imperium.

It's my belief that some Fallen are truly aligned to Chaos but some may be on "penitent crusades" to redeem themselves. Much like those Chapters that unwittingly sided with Lufgt Huron during the Badab War.

Back in Rouge Trader rule book, the DA has the Black and Red color scheme. Then when 2nd Edition came out, about the same time as Horus Heresy (board game), the DA changed thier colors to the Vermillion green they are today. By about 3rd edition, the writers of that codex came up with the whole "Fallen" storyline to the DA chapter to justify the chapters color scheme change.

This is where the writers made the fluff to fit the models.

My understanding is that the Dark Angels specifically hunt fallen that are written in that fancy book the ravenwing carry around. Sure they hunt all chaos, but these names in particular are of interest to them.
I also seem to recall both the Lion and his chaos-y sidekick are both entombed in the rock: the lion in a state similar to that of the ultramarines primarch, and the sidekick as a raving madman.

 Traejun wrote:


Not many have been caught in the last few millennia, noted by how rare the black pearls that Interrogator-Chaplains wear for making a captured fallen repent.
.

This is not entirely true. The perals are for the Fallen that repent. They are killed either way but those that repent die faster and the chaplin gets a pretty black pearl.

Spoiler Alert!

9 of 20 Legions turn Chaos. Not including Dark Angels.

BrotherChaplinMalus wrote:

 Traejun wrote:


Not many have been caught in the last few millennia, noted by how rare the black pearls that Interrogator-Chaplains wear for making a captured fallen repent.
.

This is not entirely true. The perals are for the Fallen that repent. They are killed either way but those that repent die faster and the chaplin gets a pretty black pearl.

Do they still get a pearl, or different type of pearl if it's not an orginal Fallen they repent?
By that I mean not all Fallen were there at Caliban when it all went down, and where created by stolen geneseed after Caliban and the Heresy.

The Fallen were present in 2nd Ed's Angels of Death, where I remember feeling very unsure as to the true purpose of the Dark Angels. While they currently fought on the right side, there was a strong sense that this wasn't inevitable.

Early mentions of the Fallen Cypher also describe that he was trying to bring evidence of the original Fallen's loyalty on the Rock to the Emperor. The idea being that it was those who had been out fighting that had nearly turned traitor, and those who stayed behind that held the faith.

Obviously, the Fallen now distrust almost all the Imperials they come across, hence the fighting and sometimes turning to Chaos.

I have no problem with this not being true, but I do find the protestations that Lion was totally like 100% loyal man he's such a good guy to be very boring storytelling and background setting...